Corellian Conflict: When are fleets revealed?

[Mikael Hasselstein 6,898]

Before the first round, it seems we have the following steps:

1. Create Teams
2. Build Fleets
3. Place Bases

Then in the Campaign turn, you have the Strategy Phase, in which assaults are declared. This is followed by the Battle Phase, in which we play the game of Armada itself.

 

But at what point do the teams learn of the other team's fleet compositions?

[Drasnighta 26,832]

In total?

They don't.  I don't think.  You'll have to rely on rumour and "intelligence" (ie, asking the guy what he faced) to get the full picture.

 

 

 

That being said, It does state that, with the exception of bases, "All other information is public knowledge"....  In a sidebar later on.  (Page 11)...  So the answer might also be "Right Away"...

 

 

It doesn't state specifically either way, after 3 meticulous read-throughs.

Edited December 24, 2016 by Drasnighta

[Mikael Hasselstein 6,898]

I just sent this to FFG, after about 20 failed attempts at the bloody reCaptcha.

Edited December 24, 2016 by Mikael Hasselstein

[Mikael Hasselstein 6,898]

Ugh, I think I'm going to have to talk to my group and come up with a common understanding ahead of time. I imagine that FFG is dealing with a lot of rules questions right now, and it will take them some time to get to me.
 

In total?

They don't.  I don't think.  You'll have to rely on rumour and "intelligence" (ie, asking the guy what he faced) to get the full picture.
 
That being said, It does state that, with the exception of bases, "All other information is public knowledge"....  In a sidebar later on.  (Page 11)...  So the answer might also be "Right Away"...
 
It doesn't state specifically either way, after 3 meticulous read-throughs.

I'm mostly referring to the very first instance. After that, you should know the basic structure of each opposing fleet, unless you wipe out an opponent to the degree that they reconstitute an entire fleet. At the very first Strategy Phase, when you're the Empire, it really helps to know the structure of your opponents' fleets so that you know who to pair against whom.

 

Anyway, without a ruling from FFG on the matter, I'd like some more ideas about this, and so I'm bumping this thread.

[Cactus 195]

I quite like the idea of not knowing the composition of enemy fleets until you engage them in battle.

[Admiral Theia 610]

I quite like the idea of not knowing the composition of enemy fleets until you engage them in battle.

Ditto

[Mikael Hasselstein 6,898]

Oh, I think it's fun to not know, but this is war, and I want every strategic advantage I can get. ;-)

[Drasnighta 26,832]

Being that it is After the fact that we've identified that basically, anything goes, and the closest "hard rules" is that its public Knowledge........

 

 

...  I will then point out that you are the master of the Houserule...  The Wizard of Winging it

 

 

If we're going to make them hidden, then the mechanism for reveal should be considered - My suggestion to that fact is to tie it to SpyNets...  Having a Spynet (and not neccessarily spending it, just having it) grants you visual access to 'x' amount of Enemy Lists...  (Either 1 or all of them)....

 

Adds a bit to the game.  But doesn't make it necessarily a given...

[Mikael Hasselstein 6,898]

There are a ton of house rules that I'd like to play with. However, the first time I'd really like to play it RAW.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

Then the best we can get, they're Public Knowledge the moment they're Created....  Because at no point are they specified as to be Hidden.

The Team Sheet with Rebel base Locations is Hidden from the Empire....

But seemingly nothing else is.

[CaribbeanNinja 6,207]

The way we are dealing with it is this:

 

When both sides are ready with the initial BUILD FLEETS setup, then they are revealed and will remain public knowledge.  

 

Before that point (while teams are discussing composition strategy) neither side should know that the Empire is running 9 ISDs.  

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

I'm not sure why the fleets would be revealed before the games are played. I mean, from a gameplay perspective, I get why it would be fun to match my bomber fleet against your squadronless fleet in the Strategy Phase. But I don't see a rules justification for it.

There's no mention of special rules for fleet reveal in CC, so why wouldn't we just default to revealing fleets at the start of the Battle Phase like we do for regular games now?

That being said, It does state that, with the exception of bases, "All other information is public knowledge".... In a sidebar later on. (Page 11)... So the answer might also be "Right Away."

I'm not sure I agree with this line of reasoning, at least as justification for open lists. If we extrapolate this out to absurdity, you could use the same reasoning to justify playing with revealed dials, which is obviously ridiculous. I think that sidebar is referring to map/base information, even though it's not explicit about it.

That said, one of the nice things about the campaign is this option: just agree among the six of you ahead of time how you want to run it, and do it that way.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

I'm not sure why the fleets would be revealed before the games are played. I mean, from a gameplay perspective, I get why it would be fun to match my bomber fleet against your squadronless fleet in the Strategy Phase. But I don't see a rules justification for it.

There's no mention of special rules for fleet reveal in CC, so why wouldn't we just default to revealing fleets at the start of the Battle Phase like we do for regular games now?

 

That being said, It does state that, with the exception of bases, "All other information is public knowledge".... In a sidebar later on. (Page 11)... So the answer might also be "Right Away."

I'm not sure I agree with this line of reasoning, at least as justification for open lists. If we extrapolate this out to absurdity, you could use the same reasoning to justify playing with revealed dials, which is obviously ridiculous. I think that sidebar is referring to map/base information, even though it's not explicit about it.

That said, one of the nice things about the campaign is this option: just agree among the six of you ahead of time how you want to run it, and do it that way.

 

 

We're doing a lot of disagreeing with the rules, eh?

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

It's true. I'm not too wrapped around the axle about CC rules, though, because the "just be reasonable and have fun" is an option here.

As distinct from "drive four hours to a regional to find out mid-tourney that the TO is using a stupid-ass rules interpretation that neuters your list."

[Mikael Hasselstein 6,898]

As distinct from "drive four hours to a regional to find out mid-tourney that the TO is using a stupid-ass rules interpretation that neuters your list."

 

Four hours?

 

So, you didn't even leave the state.

How's that suppose to make me feel you went 'all out' for this?

[Jamborinio 138]

My interpretation of this is:

The first turn and first battles will be relative unknowns, much in the way of normal non campaign battles. Players just get faced off with each other.

For all the following turns, the team who is behind in campaign points goes first selecting an attack. They will assign a player to it thus giving the other team knowledge of that player's list. Only situation that makes the knowledge different is if that player has retired a fleet and built a new 400.

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

Only situation that makes the knowledge different is if that player has retired a fleet and built a new 400.

Not entirely. You won't know what refitting they've done in the interim.

[Jamborinio 138]

Only situation that makes the knowledge different is if that player has retired a fleet and built a new 400.

Not entirely. You won't know what refitting they've done in the interim.

Good point!

[CDAT 243]

 

Only situation that makes the knowledge different is if that player has retired a fleet and built a new 400.

Not entirely. You won't know what refitting they've done in the interim.

 

also what/if any stuff they moved around. May still be the same stuff in the fleet but we all know some things work better on one ship compared to another.

[Edsel62 306]

In the "Learn to Play" booklet of the Armada rules, on page 20 it states:

 

Players build fleets without any foreknowledge of their opponents’ fleet. During the “Gather Components” step of setup, they simultaneously reveal the cards, ships and squadrons in their fleet

I take this to mean that your fleet and its make up become public knowledge during the set up for the actual battle.  Before that time the enemy is not allowed to look at your fleet.  So this would keep the contents of your fleet secret from the enemy until just before you start playing a battle.  Of course after the first campaign turn they will have a general knowledge of your fleet, your income and your resources, but won't know about additions and switching of upgrades until the Gather Components step of the next Armada battle.

 

So now the dilemma is:  Does the bit about public knowledge on page 11 of the Corellian Conflict rules supersede the regular Armada rules on this point?

[ForceSensitive 2,628]

Sadly that's from the learn to play guide, and not nearly as binding as it ought be on many things. Though it almost makes sense to use that here.

I'm of the opinion that the fleets are public knowledge, and that that is a balancing factor to keep whoever is defending in the strategy phase able to setup closer matches, and thus stay in the fight longer.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

Essentially, Its binding unless directly contradicted.

 

I feel Page 11 of CC does overwrite it...

 

...  But as Ard pointed out, you can take that to the obscene level, so there shoul dbe discretion involved in what to allow or not - honestly, knowing Fleet Compositions isn't a game-breaker to me...

 

Deciding to have a game where everyone's dials are always face up (the extreme case), that's a game breaker

[Edsel62 306]

I am having an organizational meeting at my local FLGS to get a Corellian Campaign started.  This is one of the issues we will discuss as we go over the rules before starting the campaign.

 

As for the Rules Reference, there are no stipulations one way or the other, about when fleets are revealed or kept secret or none that I could find.  I understand that if the Rules Reference and the Learn to Play guide contradict one another that the Rules Reference is the authority.  Since there is no contradiction then the Learn to Play guide is a valid rule.  There is no guidance about whether the Learn to Play Guide or the Corellian Conflict takes precedence in the case of a conflict.

 

In this case, until there is clarification on the issue, if you play an Armada battle according to the Armada rules you are violating the rules of Corellian Conflict.  And if you play an Armada battle in Corellian Conflict making your fleet public knowledge before the Gathering Components step, you are violating the rules of Armada.  Corellian Conflict says that “…players participate in games of Star Wars: Armada called Battles.”  (page 4 opening sentence).  Which indicates that you are going to use the Armada rules, so you must follow those rules.  Then there is the, not specific enough, statement on page 11 of CC.  In effect this means that CC contradicts itself.

 

This conundrum bothers me very much and I hope we get some official ruling on it soon.  Until then I believe that the players of the campaign will have to come to an agreement before play starts.

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

Rules contradictions between CC and RRG don't bother me much, per se--I just assume that if CC contradicts the RRG, it's intentional for CC games and so CC wins.

What does bother me is obviously poorly-scoped contradictions like this, which is definitely open to interpretation because taking it too far in either direction (follow it to the letter or disregard it entirely) breaks the game.

Even so, though,I don't find it to be that big a deal. Just go into your game aware of the issue, come to an agreement with the rest of the players on how you'll play it, and do so. No problem!

Edited January 2, 2017 by Ardaedhel

[Drasnighta 26,832]

I mean, its a campaign.  A Campaign is where you organise with a group of friends to meet up multiple times and play multiple games...

 

For lack of a better term, this is a lot more intimate than a Tournament.  A Tournament is wham, bam, thank-your-mother-for-the-rabbits....  You can play against anyone, but you may never see them again, or have to organise to play against them...

 

 

Campaigns are inherently about friendship, and the bond that's formed through that repeat playing of multiple games....    Although they are issues, They really are "non-issues" because there should be that level of trust extended between members...  If not, you're going to have to foster it pretty **** quickly, if the campaign is going to get anywhere...

 

So I guess, if they're issues...  They're not concerns, as they shoul dbe quickly and easily dealt with, and there's nary the competition of a tournament framework to concern you.