Help with making a Jedi

[Jeivar 1]

I have very limited experience with this game, but my group is apparently gearing up for a shot at it within a few weeks and I want to be ready. Specifically, I want to make a decent Jedi character that has some survivability. Logically, the character running into melee when everyone else is using guns is going to come under a LOT of fire.

 

I don't have any of the books myself, so I have to make do with memory and what I can see for free online, 

 

From what I can tell, Niman Disciple is my best choice, as it only costs 45 XP to buy two ranks of Parry, two of Reflect, and one of Toughened. I do wish the skills were a bit more hardcore, but you can't have everything.

 

Here's what I'm thinking:

 

Human.

Brawn 3, Agility 2, Intelligence, Cunning 2, Willpower 3, Presence 2 (decent melee capability, as well as Strain and Wounds) = 60 XP.

 

One rank of Reflect, one of Parry, and one of Toughened = 20 XP

 

The Force powers Sense and Foresee. Given that the chances of actually getting a positive roll on the Force die is less than 50%, I'm not comfortable relying on it in combat, so I went with those two.

=20

 

And finally 10 XP to buy a second rank in Lightsaber, to help me survive those early encounters.

 

Aaand that's my starting XP spent.

 

Since I'm pretty sure the ST won't let me start off with a lightsaber I'll try to go for an Ancient Sword, and once I have a little money I'll acquire a riot shield.

 

How does all this look, you folks who know the system better than I? Is there a Force power I would be better off with? And could someone explain to me why the heck the Ancient Sword doesn't have a plus by the damage rating on this list?

 

http://swrpg.viluppo.net/equipment/weapons/category/3

 

And one last question: Do Abilities impact the Force Powers at all?

 

I'll appreciate any and all advice. Thanks.

[Ghostofman 8,319]

1) Don't worry too much about using black pips to power your force powers. Unless you're using the force for everything all the time, or are generally being a total jerkwad murder hobo, you'll rarely get enough conflict to impact your alignment in any significant way. The Morality system is actually built assuming you're going to earn a few conflict per session. Be wary of the darkside, but don't be afraid of it. Remember, Fear leads to Anger... you know the rest.

 

2) Look at a training saber. It's only stun damage, but it's otherwise a real saber. Unlike the sword it'll still allow you to use reflect ect. The moment you get a real saber crystal, it's just a few minutes to swap it out withthe training emitter and you're in business.

 

3) Don't look at where you want to start, look at where you want to go. One of the tricks about force users in this system is the XP economy is super duper important. Take like 400ish XP and advance your character to where you think you want to be. What powers do you want with what upgrade? What FR do you think you need to make them work (at all, not just light only)? What other skills and talents do you want? Check how all these work together and then "unbuild what you have built" and make an advancement plan. That way you won't do things like waste XP on something that's not that important in the long run, or buy a force power upgrade that won't work until you have FR 2.

 

4) Don't ignore things like Emergent and Exile. They are pretty generic yes, but for a baseline "Jedi" something like emergent and a saber tree are probably all you need.

 

5) Don't be distracted by powers you won't use. There's lots of good powers, but the best ones are the quiet ones. Think about what powers will allow you to do something that would normally take some special piece of gear to do. That's the real trick of the Jedi. The flipping out and shooting lightening bolts is all flashy, but the true cool is the fact they can enter into a situation with nothing but a lightsaber and the robes on their backs and still do all the things a fully equipped supercommando with all the batman gadgets can do. You're in the right direction with stuff like Sense and Foresee, but also check out things like Enhance, Seek, and Farsight. I'm not saying to ignore stuff like Move and Unleash, just that you may find you'll use them less often.

[Aetrion 441]

If you want to build a Jedi who's primary purpose is being beefy and good with lightsabers I'd suggest building a Guardian. Especially if you use the Armorer specialization from the Keeping the Peace guardian supplement it becomes a really tanky class.

 

Soresu defender contains 4 ranks of parry and reflect, giving you great defensive capability right there. You'll want high brawn on a Guardian, even if the Soresu Technique allows you to roll Int on lightsaber checks, because the HP and soak are worth it.

 

Protector gives you another rank in reflect and parry, and the ability to use them when a friendly who stands next to you gets hit, that's really handy. Overall protector is not that supperb of a class all by itself, but it does have some good synergies.

 

Armorer is where things get good, you get a bunch of hitpoints, and the Armor Master, Improved Armor Master and Supreme Armor Master talents, all incredibly good for survival, and Reinforce Item makes you a nightmare to deal with for other lightsaber wielders, since your armor soak actually works against them then, and stacks with your parry. 

 

 

I think Enhance is the best force power to get early on. With a relatively modest investment it allows you to invest your force dice into Brawn or Agility, which means you don't need to roll any force checks, you just sit back and enjoy the bonuses. Especially getting extra brawn is nice for the soak ratings.

 

Misdirect is also a surprisingly powerful defensive power. On top of being able to create illusions and make things invisible it gives you an option to commit force dice to give automatic threats to opponents who attack you. That becomes a real problem for your enemies when you have improved parry or reflect which makes them take damage if they generate too many threats on attacks that you parry or reflect. The guardian has a bunch of abilities that force enemies to attack the guardian, and it's real foolish to attack someone who reflects all your attacks back at you. 

 

Misdirect Guardian is basically the standard Jedi you see in the movies, where they kill most of their enemies by just standing there and reflecting everything back at them. This technique is also fully effective with a training saber or any other weapon that allows reflects, like a shield gauntlet (also found in Keeper of the Peace), so no lightsaber needed (Although it's unlikely you won't have one by the time you've developed all those skills).

Edited December 21, 2016 by Aetrion

[Azraiel 50]

I notice that you didn't mention your career choice, so, firstly, I would suggest that you decide if you actually want to be a Consular, as that's a bigger deal than you may think at first glance. Your chosen Career has a significant impact on not just your starting options, but your future incentives for advancement. You can always buy into your preferred form (perhaps in preparation for actually building your first lightsaber) at a later date.

That said, I do like Niman. It's very appropriate that the "Moderation Form" offers a point of force rating as well as such a diverse set of talents. Also, your stats look fine to me, but if you're hell-bent on charging into melee right from the start, I suggest investing in the left-hand column of Force Sense for the large defensive boost (and frankly, the whole power is great, an often overlooked gem imo). Also keep in mind that if don't have access to a lightsaber crystal early on, you'll need a training saber (or one of a handful of rare and expensive alternatives) to be able to use reflect.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Azraiel

[judgeender 63]

 

From what I can tell, Niman Disciple is my best choice, as it only costs 45 XP to buy two ranks of Parry, two of Reflect, and one of Toughened. I do wish the skills were a bit more hardcore, but you can't have everything.

 

Here's what I'm thinking:

 

Human.

Brawn 3, Agility 2, Intelligence, Cunning 2, Willpower 3, Presence 2 (decent melee capability, as well as Strain and Wounds) = 60 XP.

 

One rank of Reflect, one of Parry, and one of Toughened = 20 XP

 

 

It doesn't work quite this way.  You can start as a Consular -- Niman Disciple.  You can then buy Parry for 5 xp and Reflect for 5xp.  However, to get Toughened for 10 xp, you first need to buy Nobody's Fool (5xp), Niman Technique (10xp), Sense Emotions (15xp), and Reflect (15xp).  After getting all of that you can buy Toughened. 

[Jeivar 1]

I appreciate the responses.

 

Also keep in mind that if don't have access to a lightsaber crystal early on, you'll need a training saber (or one of a handful of rare and expensive alternatives) to be able to use reflect.

 

Hm. The talent tree doesn't specifically state that you need a lightsaber to reflect, so I thought maybe you could do the Darth Vader thing of blocking with your hands. Is this definitely stated somewhere in the rules?

 

Also, could someone respond to these two questions, please?

 

And could someone explain to me why the heck the Ancient Sword doesn't have a plus by the damage rating on this list?

 

http://swrpg.viluppo.net/equipment/weapons/category/3

 

And one last question: Do Abilities impact the Force Powers at all?

 

 

Edited December 21, 2016 by Jeivar

[Sharatec 84]

1) The talent tree doesn't specifically state that you need a lightsaber to reflect, so I thought maybe you could do the Darth Vader thing of blocking with your hands. Is this definitely stated somewhere in the rules?

 

2) And could someone explain to me why the heck the Ancient Sword doesn't have a plus by the damage rating on this list?

 

http://swrpg.viluppo.net/equipment/weapons/category/3

 

3) And one last question: Do Abilities impact the Force Powers at all?

 

1) It's from the full description of talents (the text in the talent trees is abbreviated), and does indeed state that you need a Lightsaber weapon to use Reflect. (Parry, OTOH, can be used with Melee och Lightsaber weapons.

 

2) No, but it's wrong; it should indeed be +2.

 

3) If by abilities you mean characteristics (Brawn, Agility etc), then yes - first that springs to mind is that checks to activate Force powers are often opposed checks, with Willpower frequently coming into play.

 

(Sorry for changing your formating; I don't quite get this forum yet...)

[Victim 12]

2) Look at a training saber. It's only stun damage, but it's otherwise a real saber. Unlike the sword it'll still allow you to use reflect ect. The moment you get a real saber crystal, it's just a few minutes to swap it out withthe training emitter and you're in business.

EDIT: Hmm, that was weird.  

 

It seems to me that in the default setting, the Empire tends to crack down on Jedi type stuff.  So using a training sabre, which looks just like a lightsabre, may be troublesome in that it attracts attention, more powerful reinforcements, bounties, etc.  So even if the training sabre is letting you use Reflect, it may also put you a bad overall position.  You don't necessarily want to advertise yourself by waving around the weapon of a Jedi Knight if you aren't ready to back that up with serious skills, or run away (like Obiwan in Star Wars).  Other people do use melee weapons, so the Ancient Sword or fighting stick (?) blends in better, giving you time to use your Lightsaber skill while you grow.

 

Also, the whole existence of the training saber as an effective stun weapon just seems weird IMO.  If it's a reliable, effective, and non-lethal weapon, it kind of seems like we'd see some Jedi using it as an option between killing/maiming and just trying to talk people down or mind trick them.  The double bladed hilt, with one end safe and the other normal, seems like it might have been the standard issue (even if most people didn't use it as a staff).

Edited December 21, 2016 by Victim

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

 

I appreciate the responses.

 

Also keep in mind that if don't have access to a lightsaber crystal early on, you'll need a training saber (or one of a handful of rare and expensive alternatives) to be able to use reflect.

 

Hm. The talent tree doesn't specifically state that you need a lightsaber to reflect, so I thought maybe you could do the Darth Vader thing of blocking with your hands. Is this definitely stated somewhere in the rules?

 

Also, could someone respond to these two questions, please?

 

And could someone explain to me why the heck the Ancient Sword doesn't have a plus by the damage rating on this list?

 

http://swrpg.viluppo.net/equipment/weapons/category/3

 

And one last question: Do Abilities impact the Force Powers at all?

 

 

 

 

 

 

1) The talent tree doesn't specifically state that you need a lightsaber to reflect, so I thought maybe you could do the Darth Vader thing of blocking with your hands. Is this definitely stated somewhere in the rules?

 

2) And could someone explain to me why the heck the Ancient Sword doesn't have a plus by the damage rating on this list?

 

http://swrpg.viluppo.net/equipment/weapons/category/3

 

3) And one last question: Do Abilities impact the Force Powers at all?

 

1) It's from the full description of talents (the text in the talent trees is abbreviated), and does indeed state that you need a Lightsaber weapon to use Reflect. (Parry, OTOH, can be used with Melee och Lightsaber weapons.

 

2) No, but it's wrong; it should indeed be +2.

 

3) If by abilities you mean characteristics (Brawn, Agility etc), then yes - first that springs to mind is that checks to activate Force powers are often opposed checks, with Willpower frequently coming into play.

 

(Sorry for changing your formating; I don't quite get this forum yet...)

 

Sharatec is correct. The power Vader used to "block" the blaster bolts Han shot at him in ESB was the Force Power Protect. It wasn't the Reflect talent. 

[Jeivar 1]

One more question about the whole Reflect business: Does it specifically state that you need an actual lightsaber, or will a weapon that uses the lightsaber SKILL, meaning the Ancient Sword, do?

[Aetrion 441]

It seems to me that in the default setting, the Empire tends to crack down on Jedi type stuff.  So using a training sabre, which looks just like a lightsabre, may be troublesome in that it attracts attention, more powerful reinforcements, bounties, etc.  So even if the training sabre is letting you use Reflect, it may also put you a bad overall position. 

 

Thing is, a training saber is basically just a power cell with a standard static emitter and a small kathracite crystal in it, if someone scanned it they would get the same readings from it as any number of random tools and light weapons. Now on the other hand if they scan something and it comes up with Kyber all the alarms go off.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that even at the height of the Republic there would have been something like one Jedi per billion people in the galaxy, which is why it only took 20 years to convince most people that they were never real at all. Recognizing an unignited lightsaber as such is much harder than you'd think for the average person in the Star Wars universe. There are millions of technologically advanced worlds that produce a near infinite quantity of technological devices of all designs and functions. You'd probably come across hundreds of cylindrical objects with an emitter on one end that aren't lightsabers in your lifetime, and boy would it be awkward to call ISB on someone's reactor cowling de-ionizer or Bantha prod.

 

Of course  once you turn a training saber on you're basically holding a giant kill-me sign with none of the advantages of a real lightsaber.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Aetrion

[bradknowles 4,449]

You'd probably come across hundreds of cylindrical objects with an emitter on one end that aren't lightsabers in your lifetime, and boy would it be awkward to call ISB on someone's reactor cowling de-ionizer or Bantha prod.

This is why Kanan can get away with just separating the two main parts of his lightsaber and putting them each on his belt individually, and no one is the wiser.

If an Inquisitor or Darth Vader saw him with those two parts separated, they’d know what was going on and recognize it for what it is.

But everyone else?

[Richardbuxton 7,319]

One more question about the whole Reflect business: Does it specifically state that you need an actual lightsaber, or will a weapon that uses the lightsaber SKILL, meaning the Ancient Sword, do?

Each weapon has 2 separate ways they are categorised:

First is the Skill used to wield the weapon, that's one of the 5 weapon skills of the game.

Second, and most important in this case is the weapon type. When you look at the tables of weapons in each book there will be a title to each table; Energy, Slug Thrower, Melee, Explosive, Brawl... and Lightsaber.

The Reflect talent requires a "Lightsaber Weapon to be equipped (in the hands of the character)" so it's not the skill used but the weapon type that's being referenced.

[Jeivar 1]

 

 

So that's a no-go on Reflect with an ancient sword?

 

EDIT: Ugh, something went wrong with quoting your post, and now I can't remove the quotation bubbles from the post. How the heck does this work?

Edited December 22, 2016 by Jeivar

[Richardbuxton 7,319]

 

So that's a no-go on Reflect with an ancient sword?

 

EDIT: Ugh, something went wrong with quoting your post, and now I can't remove the quotation bubbles from the post. How the heck does this work?

Yeah, it happens sometimes when editing posts.

I think that in Star Wars anyone who knew anything about Force Users would recognise the Reflect ability just as easily as a Lightsaber. To reflect you literally must have the ability to tap into the Force and sense the actions others are about to perform.

[Jeivar 1]

 

 

 

 

So that's a no-go on Reflect with an ancient sword?

 

EDIT: Ugh, something went wrong with quoting your post, and now I can't remove the quotation bubbles from the post. How the heck does this work?

Yeah, it happens sometimes when editing posts.

I think that in Star Wars anyone who knew anything about Force Users would recognise the Reflect ability just as easily as a Lightsaber. To reflect you literally must have the ability to tap into the Force and sense the actions others are about to perform.

 

 

My question was whether a Jedi can use Reflect with an ancient sword, or if it has to be a proper lightsaber.

[Lordbiscuit 566]

It has to be a proper lightsaber or one of the exception weapons. Reflect works with training sabers but doesn't work with anything else.

 

That being said, use a vibro weapon if you are a brawny wielder. That can be used with parry. However, Jedi haven't survived in this era as Jedi for a reason; the empire has plenty of resources and makes Jedi killing an agenda in the immediate aftermath of the republic which meant that Jedi couldn't survive as their namesakes; rather they either went further out into the rim or picked up occupations. I mean if your character puts on some armour he might get mistaken for a Mandolorian or a hard nosed merc which, by the sheer mystery aura will allow your character to get by for a time with people none the wiser.

 

Picking an ancient sword or a training saber will just disappoint you. Don't, those weapons are rubbish mechanically and will just have you beating off soak like a wet sponge in a shower. Just pick up a vibro weapon and use that brawn score because vibro weapons just offer more bite then either the soft saber (because it has a good crit rating, Star wars isn't the same without a missing limb!) or the old blade during that early stage of the game (because it's damage is horrible, a vibrosword deals 3 more damage on average.). Because your character is fairly brawn he should be able to tank blaster fire pretty well.

That way your character can evolve over time to become that jedi knight that was in him all along. It kinda works since Niman doesn't have a lot of abilities that needs a lightsaber check; it's mostly based off willpower. That way when you do get hold of a lightsaber at the end of a long journey; well the moment is made all that more special when that hilt is finally built up.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Lordbiscuit

[mouthymerc 4,483]

The only other item that can be used with the Reflect talent is the shield gauntlet in Keeping the Peace. It is specifically called out that it can be used with the talent.

[Jeivar 1]

Picking an ancient sword or a training saber will just disappoint you. Don't, those weapons are rubbish mechanically and will just have you beating off soak like a wet sponge in a shower. Just pick up a vibro weapon and use that brawn score because vibro weapons just offer more bite then either the soft saber (because it has a good crit rating, Star wars isn't the same without a missing limb!) or the old blade during that early stage of the game (because it's damage is horrible, a vibrosword deals 3 more damage on average.). Because your character is fairly brawn he should be able to tank blaster fire pretty well.

 

I'm a bit confused here. I took another look at the weapon list, and ancient sword and vibrosword are both given a damage rating of 2.

 

And yes, I know that's puny compared to blasters, but lightsabre is the only combat skill Niman gets, so I wanted to be at least a little bit capable of actually hitting a foe.

[Aetrion 441]

The Vibro-Rapier from Fly Casual has pierce 5, making it kind of a poor man's lightsaber. Also a legal, if unusual, weapon in most parts of the galaxy.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Aetrion

[Lordbiscuit 566]

 

Picking an ancient sword or a training saber will just disappoint you. Don't, those weapons are rubbish mechanically and will just have you beating off soak like a wet sponge in a shower. Just pick up a vibro weapon and use that brawn score because vibro weapons just offer more bite then either the soft saber (because it has a good crit rating, Star wars isn't the same without a missing limb!) or the old blade during that early stage of the game (because it's damage is horrible, a vibrosword deals 3 more damage on average.). Because your character is fairly brawn he should be able to tank blaster fire pretty well.

 

I'm a bit confused here. I took another look at the weapon list, and ancient sword and vibrosword are both given a damage rating of 2.

 

And yes, I know that's puny compared to blasters, but lightsabre is the only combat skill Niman gets, so I wanted to be at least a little bit capable of actually hitting a foe.

 

Vibroswords have pierce 2, which effectively makes it 4 damage. There are other books that offer different weapons mind you, just aside from being used to use skill lightsaber, never thought particlarly good of the acicent sword.

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

Don't completely sell the training lightsaber short.

 

As others have noted, it gets you a lightsaber hilt right at the start, so once your PC acquires a kyber crystal, it's a simply matter (a few minutes) to pop out the training emitter and slot in the kyber crystal.  And as you're waiting for/working towards a kyber crystal, you can still install mods to the hilt, such as the custom grip (Special Modifications) or reflex grip (Endless Vigil)

 

True, the training lightsaber only does Stun damage, but considering that most of what you'll be fighting are minions and rivals (who generally lack a strain threshold), that damage gets converted to wounds.  True it doesn't have Pierce or Breach, but a base damage of 6 is pretty good.  And if you are facing Nemeses with a strain threshold, the fact that you're dealing strain damage can still be a boon as most combat-orientated opponents have a much higher wound threshold than they do a strain threshold.

 

It also lets you make use of Reflect, something that the majority of melee weapons can't do (as the talent's full description spells out) since they're not Lightsaber weapons.

 

Then there's the simple fact that a training lightsaber uses the Lightsaber skill, something that's already a career skill for the character, as opposed to having to use Melee as you would with any other melee weapon suggested (except the Ancient Sword, which frankly is pretty "meh" as far as a weapon goes).

[Jeivar 1]

Well... I've been going over the careers some more, and I'm leaning more towards Soresu Defender. I think it has a better array of skills, and once I've worked my way into three ranks of Reflect, I can switch to Protector for a double dose of Toughened, and pick up some good team player talents while working my way towards a second rank in Force Rating.

[EliasWindrider 2,714]

ask if you can start at "knight level" xp (starting xp + 150 earned xp)

 

consular is probably your best bet, but you might also try Sentinel:Sentry (the sentry spec is in the "Endless Vigil" sentinel book), I think you'll prefer that selection of skills.

 

sentry and niman disciple pair well (in either order), here's an example build at 915 earned xp including force powers, and I would suggest that you avoid the "foresee" force power.

 

https://www.mediafire.com/?ap96t86psezpho9

[Jeivar 1]

ask if you can start at "knight level" xp (starting xp + 150 earned xp)

 

consular is probably your best bet, but you might also try Sentinel:Sentry (the sentry spec is in the "Endless Vigil" sentinel book), I think you'll prefer that selection of skills.

 

sentry and niman disciple pair well (in either order), here's an example build at 915 earned xp including force powers, and I would suggest that you avoid the "foresee" force power.

 

https://www.mediafire.com/?ap96t86psezpho9

 

I don't have access to Endless Vigil. But would you mind telling me why you advise against Foresee?