Why I like Episode 7 MORE than Rogue One

[Crabbok 9,869]

This may be long.   I apologize in advance. 

TL/DR version:

I'm more excited when I have no idea how a movie will end, or what exactly is going to happen with the plan of the story.  Since we knew how Rogue One ends, I'm making an argument that Episode 7's New Story, is more exciting than an already known story.  

 

First off, Rogue One was AMAZING!  I'm not hating on it at all.  Also, Episode 7 had it's flaws, but was also a very good movie.  It was a blast!  My general feeling is a sense of excitement about the unknown. 

 

  Television has taken an interesting turn lately.    Last several years, many amazing programs have had no problem changing things up significantly, from what you might have expected from a cookie-cutter format.   Firefly for example, broke all the rules.  And it was probably the best show ever made.   Game of Thrones, killed off the main character in the first season - making you realize that you were wrong about the main character - and then they killed off the OTHER main character... and now you are like "Ok I know nothing.  I will assume nothing.  I will just sit back and see where this story takes me.".   This same thing happened in The Walking Dead.   A lot of shows have taken me in unexpected directions.  I love it!  This is also why I HATE Marvel's Agents of SHIELD - It is just so predictable and feels like a show from the 1990s. 

 

  Now in terms of movies - I was willing to give the prequels a pass because of two reasons.  First off, prequels and backstories weren't common at the time.  In fact I think Lucas was the first person to do that, at least the first person I've seen do it that I know of.  Also, it was Star Wars - and this made it a big deal.   Might have been the last Star Wars we ever got. 

 

  But in general, I hate a backstory.  We already know how it ends.  Sure we don't know every single detail, but if those details were that important we'd probably know them already.  Imagine if you watched Empire Strikes Back, and already knew that Vader was Luke's Father - would that entire exchange have the same?  I love big reveals.   I love huge surprises. 

 

  Which brings me to Episode 7. 

 

It's an all new story.  (Insert jokes about all of the similarities to the original trilogy here).  It is though, it's an all new story.  Borrowed concepts aside, we had no idea what was going to happen (Unless you read all the spoilers).  They could have done anything.   Nobody was "safe".  No planets were safe.  The Falcon wasn't safe, Chewbacca wasn't safe, Han Solo certainly wasn't safe.   You go in to it with mind wide open... and that for me, is magical! 

 

At the end of Episode 7, I was brainstorming on what will happen next.   Talking to my friends about who Rey's parents are, what will happen to Finn, who is Snoke, Will Kylo Ren be redeemed... will Rey create a saber staff?  This stuff makes me go crazy with excitement!  And I'm still just as excited as we countdown to episode 8!  (Now less than a year!)  It makes me have bigger questions for this entire third trilogy.   What is the end-game?   Will Snoke be the final bad guy?  What will Finn's role turn out to be?   Will Luke be the "Nuclear Option" , coming in to save the day at the very end?  Will Kylo Ren be redeemed?  If so, will it be at the VERY VERY end or will it happen during episode 8 and give us the option to see him as a Good Guy in Episode 9?  Did Luke have any other students that survived?  Is Thrawn hiding in the outer reaches... waiting for a chance to strike? 

 

  When they make a backstory, they put themselves in a box, creatively.  There are firm limits on directions they can, and cannot go.   Someone suggested a Princess Leia backstory movie, and I feel like that would be a real waste of a film.  I feel like we already know so much about her, and the comics and even SW Rebels has filled in enough of the blanks, that we simply don't need a movie there.  I feel similar about the Han Solo film, though his story isn't nearly as flushed out at this point.   But I'm less enthusiastic about it because we know he cannot die.  We know he cannot become horribly disfigured.   We know Chewie and Lando also cannot die.  (assuming Chewbacca will be in it at some point).  We also know that our main characters can't possibly have any major character diversions - IE Han can't possibly become an Admiral in the Imperial Navy, or assume a leadership position in the Rebel Alliance.  I get that it will probably be an interesting movie, but I just don't get nearly as excited about any movie where the stakes simply are very very low.   At it's most dramatic it might kill off some NEW character/ship/planet that we JUST got introduced to.  The stakes are just low.  

 

  And that's how I felt about Rogue One.  The stakes were crazy low.   We knew already that the mission would succeed and the rebels would get the Death Star plans.   So all the tension they had in that final battle was completely wasted on me.... because Everyone in that theater already knew the outcome.   It was STILL cool, but think how much cooler it would have been if the rebels mission failed, the Imperial Leadership had a change of heart and decided to turn the Death Star against the Empire, and now suddenly the Galactic Civil War is now about the Empire's Fleet versus this new Rebel Death Star?  Coruscant get's blown up, and the Emperor is now making an attack run on the Death Star in a TIE Phantom - cloaked so the turbolasers don't see him. 

 

  Ok I'm getting a little carried away with that last part... but my point is, stories for me are more interesting when I don't know where they are going with them.   Rogue One was a masterpiece, but the fact that we ALL knew how it ends, diminished it somehow.   Episode 8 on the other hand, is the incredibly bright light in the future, and my level of excitement for it burns like the core of our sun! 

Edited December 20, 2016 by Crabbok

[987654321 232]

This may be long.   I apologize in advance. 

TL/DR version:

This is also why I HATE Marvel's Agents of SHIELD - It is just so predictable and feels like a show from the 1990s. 

Agent Ward disagrees with you.

[Dagonet 7,246]

I get your point, I'm not sure where in the long run the pair will fall. R1 gave me more about characters I liked such as Tarkin and the interplay between him and Vader. TFA gave me more for the future and speculation.

 

It's the difference between Columbo's howcatchum and Fletcher's whodunnit I guess.

[Eyegor 318]

I need to see R1 again. When I saw TFA the 1st time I enjoyed it but meh.. After seeing it a 2nd time I was in love, despite all the obvious flaws. I'm hoping a 2nd viewing of R1 will work similar magic. I can list all the things I liked about it and nothing I can't but I'm still meh..

First impressions aren't always the best impressions.

[Crabbok 9,869]

 

This may be long.   I apologize in advance. 

TL/DR version:

This is also why I HATE Marvel's Agents of SHIELD - It is just so predictable and feels like a show from the 1990s. 

Agent Ward disagrees with you.

 

Worst character in history doesn't count.   Agree that he wasn't "Predictable" but he was stupid beyond imagination. 

 

 

 

And for those who prefer stories in the timeline of the Galactic Civil War - Imagine if Star Wars did a "What-If" series of movies.   Effectively making a change or two and seeing how it plays out?   This would allow you to have familiar characters and ships, while also offering up open ended possibilities. 

Example -

Luke/Leia Swap universe:

• Suppose Luke went to Alderaan and Leia went to Tatooine.   Perhaps Alderaan doesn't get destroyed - Perhaps when Tarkin says "You'd prefer another target????" Luke throws another system under the bus...  Maybe Leia gets off easy from Uncle Owen and goes to the Academy early - becomes an Imperial Officer and ends up being noticed by Vader or Palpatine - gets recruited into the Dark Side early.  Ends up having to attack Vader to take his place by the Emperor's Side, and during the fight's climax, he THEN reveals he is her Father - does she strike him down?    Does she hesitate?   Does he then strike HER down? 

The "Good" Anakin Universe:

• Suppose Anakin doesn't turn to the Dark Side, and fights Palpatine by Mace Windu's side - They lead the Rebellion against the Empire in the aftermath of Order 66.   Now we see a young Luke and Leia raised by Padme and Anakin - with Uncle's Obi Wan and Mace, training these kids to become fierce!  Meanwhile Palpatine begins training dark force users as an augmentation to his Imperial forces.   Now you've got a Dark Jedi for every company of Stormtroopers and plenty of new ideas.  This would make for an awesome TV show.

I'd love this type of thing.   A lot. 

[Jo Jo 4,808]

Once you started watching TFAs it was a pretty predictable movie. Of course they were going to blow up the Starkiller base. You could also see Han Solo's confrontation with his son and eventual death a mile away. It was a reboot, plan and simple. Nothing really interesting was added with Episode VII. You got a female Luke (that doesn't need training apparently), a Jar Jar type goofball Stormtrooper, and a pilot that did nothing but fly. The whole Resistance vs. First Order seemed silly. Why can't the good guys be the more powerful force while a guerilla type element of the old Empire is trying to over throw the Republic? To me that would have been a way more compelling story. TFAs was the same old thing we are used to with a different polish on it. It was the safest movie Disney could have possibly done. A movie wrapped in bubble wrap and reflector belts.

 

 

Now Rogue One on the other hand was a gamble. They took a story in the SW's universe and went really dark with it. Yeah, you know they are going to be successful, but did you ever think that no one was getting out alive? Or rebel characters murdering people in cold blood? I love how it put the rebellion into kind of a gray area morally. Also, the last act of the movie was nothing short of spectacular. I knew the outcome but it didn't make it any less tense or engaging. I dunno. I've always loved war movies, so R1 just hit a chord with me.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Jo Jo

[Vineheart01 6,403]

i have more gripes with Ep7 than i do Ep1-3.

 

Fortunately for Ep7, one of those isnt Jarjar, so its still better lol.

 

Kylo Ren started to piss me off what like 30min into the movie? And not because "hes the bad guy if you dont like him hes a good actor" no this is the CHARACTER i hate because hes a whiny punk with a laser sword and magic powers. The first tantrum was funny, everything else was getting annoying/predictable.

I dont care if he was in an emo-kid rant, he still has a lot of training and lost to someone who had ZERO TRAINING in the force. I wish he was another Darth maul where he was there, died, and vanished from future movies.

[Darth Meanie 15,565]

  When they make a backstory, they put themselves in a box, creatively.  There are firm limits on directions they can, and cannot go.   Someone suggested a Princess Leia backstory movie, and I feel like that would be a real waste of a film.  I feel like we already know so much about her, and the comics and even SW Rebels has filled in enough of the blanks, that we simply don't need a movie there.  I feel similar about the Han Solo film, though his story isn't nearly as flushed out at this point.   But I'm less enthusiastic about it because we know he cannot die.  We know he cannot become horribly disfigured.   We know Chewie and Lando also cannot die.  (assuming Chewbacca will be in it at some point).  We also know that our main characters can't possibly have any major character diversions - IE Han can't possibly become an Admiral in the Imperial Navy, or assume a leadership position in the Rebel Alliance.  I get that it will probably be an interesting movie, but I just don't get nearly as excited about any movie where the stakes simply are very very low.   At it's most dramatic it might kill off some NEW character/ship/planet that we JUST got introduced to.  The stakes are just low.   

This is why the Prequel Trilogy failed.  Lucas approached the whole movie arc with the attitude of "well, you already know the story, so all I need to show is the fight scenes."  Complete horsehocky.  How many times have SW fans watched A New Hope?  10 times?  100 times????   Yes, we know the story; we love the story; we want to hear the story again.  Knowing how it ends does not matter if it is a good story.

 

All the SW films should be made with the heart of a little kid saying "Read it to me again, Uncle George!!!!"

Edited December 20, 2016 by Darth Meanie

[Hawkstrike 5,410]

I disagree -- it's about the journey, not the destination. Do you read books, or just skip to the end to read the ending?

I think TFA has the advantage over Rogue One in terms of characterization -- with fewer characters, they and their relationships were much better developed.

R1 beats TFA in terms of plot, since TFA was a poor rehash of Star Wars.

For me, R1 is better than TFA ... but I will still put TFA in the top four Star Wars Movies, which I'd rate:

 

ESB > SW > R1 > TFA > ROTJ > ROTS > AOTC > TPM

Edited December 21, 2016 by Hawkstrike

[Crabbok 9,869]

You all make some good points... and sure I hear you on the "Journey, not the destination" stuff... but I'm saying that I care about BOTH.   The Journey is awesome - no doubt.... but I ALSO realllllly care about the destination.  

 

  I DON"T see things coming a mile away.   I didn't see Han's death, other than some vague predictions from my buddies before the movie.   I don't usually predict stuff while watching a movie... I just relax and let the movie take me wherever it's going.  Even if people say it was predictable... I don't care.  I didn't know where it was gonna take me, and that's cool. 

[markcsoul 2,135]

First of all let me preface by saying I like all 8 movies, and there aren't real big gaps in my ranking of them. It's pretty hard ranking them in fact.

That being said, TFA is probably my least favorite star wars movie. It's a movie with SO much potential...partly because of the 30 year gap, and partly because almost any story is possible since the EU was discarded.

But some combination of Disney, JJ, Kennedy, and Kasdan thought this needed to be the safest movie ever. Even though the name star wars alone would guarantee it's a hit. But no, they pandered to the vocal PT haters and made it the most OT friendly movie you could make. Reused plot, same rebels vs empire conflict but with new names, and then all the ships are just slightly updated versions of the originals so there's no fear of fans hating new designs. Planets are the same. All new locations but they just reused old ideas and made them very bland for a movie released in 2015.

Rogue one on the other hand would be in at least my top half. Possibly as high as 2nd or 3rd once I've seen it more times.

Edited December 21, 2016 by markcsoul

[FTS Gecko 24,135]

I much prefer Rogue One to Episode 7.

 

I don't dislike Episode 7.  I was hugely excited by the prospect of new Star Wars films, got goosebumps at the trailers and the "Chewie.. we're home" like (literally breathless watching the trailer on the big screen prior to Spectre).  But the film itself - while a fun romp - just seemed like a remake of A New Hope to me rather than a sequel.  It was certainly a thousand times superior to the sequels, but I've just never felt the need to go back and re-watch it since the original midnight release.  I never bothered to buy a copy.

 

Rogue One though... wow.  I was cautiously optimistic when it was announced.  The trailers were good, but didn't hit the same emotional notes as the Force Awakens trailers did.  But the film itself... it's the Star wars film I've been wanting since Return of the Jedi.  Not a prequel, not a sequel, but an expansion of the original trilogy, set in the same era, with the same villains, same technology.  The locations, the costumes, the characters, the ships... they all just fit into and alongside the original trilogy, almost seamlessly.  I'll definitely be going to see it again, and I can't wait to watch Rogue One and A New Hope back to back (if I can get hold of a copy of A New Hope with minimal Lucas tinkering, that is).

[Jo Jo 4,808]

First of all let me preface by saying I like all 8 movies, and there aren't real big gaps in my ranking of them. It's pretty hard ranking them in fact.

That being said, TFA is probably my least favorite star wars movie. It's a movie with SO much potential...partly because of the 30 year gap, and partly because almost any story is possible since the EU was discarded.

But some combination of Disney, JJ, Kennedy, and Kasdan thought this needed to be the safest movie ever. Even though the name star wars alone would guarantee it's a hit. But no, they pandered to the vocal PT haters and made it the most OT friendly movie you could make. Reused plot, same rebels vs empire conflict but with new names, and then all the ships are just slightly updated versions of the originals so there's no fear of fans hating new designs. Planets are the same. All new locations but they just reused old ideas and made them very bland for a movie released in 2015.

Rogue one on the other hand would be in at least my top half. Possibly as high as 2nd or 3rd once I've seen it more times.

 

 

Your SW rankings....

 

 

Edited December 21, 2016 by Jo Jo

[Dagonet 7,246]

Nah, while I don't agree with him, I can follow his reasoning. TFA ranks lower because of it was SUPPOSED TO BE THE CHOSEN ONE!!!!! *ahem

 

At least the prequels pushed the story further whereas he feels TFA was just hovering in place, not expanding the universe a lot.

[Vineheart01 6,403]

TFA didnt expand the universe at all.

Starkiller Base appeared out of nowhere, Han died (rip), and we got a half dozen or so new main characters we know jack squat about. Hell, Finn we know the most of and hes probably one of the weakest links in that cast - hes the defector that handed over vital intel. Done, can i go home now?

The majority of that movie felt like i was waiting for a big reveal that never came. Or was insanely predictable. Starkiller base should not have been destroyed that easy, you dont build something that big or expensive without failsafes and backups. Disabled it for a long period of time, sure, blew it up? hell no.

[FTS Gecko 24,135]

TFA would have been a much better film if Starkiller Base wasn't in it at all.

 

Just focus the film on the hunt for Luke, with the Rebellion Resistance and the Empire First Order both trying to get to him first.

[Conandoodle 1,817]

TFA would have been a much better film if Starkiller Base wasn't in it at all.

 

Totally agree. What a pointless 'thing'. It sucks the star it orbits for power .. thus having nothing to hold its orbit and therefore would just careen off into space after its one shot. The size, the scale, having the world's largest energiser battery to store the energy of a sun .. total crap! Space wizards I can handle .. Star killer was too fantastic.

 

I'm still not even 100% sure why they blew up those planets .. apart from a 'we need to blow up some planets to show that these are the bad guys' scene.

[Conandoodle 1,817]

I've said this a few times so feel free to tell me to shoosh.

 

Monsieur Lucas gave a great gift in not just delivering Star Wars but giving us a universe in which to play. There is so much more on offer that is not presented in front of us. Eg. Han and Lando's history, Han and Chewie's relationship, the bounty hunter Han ran into at Ord Mandell, the Kessel Run, "You've never heard of the Millenium Falcon? implies it has some level of notoriety, Han's history with Jabba, etc. And these examples are just for Han Solo alone. There is so much more to the universe than just what's on screen.

 

Bear with me.

 

Now with each of those examples above, when reading you automatically filled in the blanks. Your imagination ran away and in a nanosecond you thought up a fantastic story for each of them. Maybe it was a reflection of something you'd read or seen, but it yours. You have become emotionally invested into this universe because you have created a small piece of it. That's why we love the OT.

 

This is why books are always better than the movies and why the aliens are always scarier before they're seen in the latter parts of movies. It's you, it's relevant to you, it's interesting to you, it's scary to you.

 

A Han Solo (and possible Boba Fett) movie take this away. They make the SW universe smaller and limit your personal canon. You experience someone else's story, and whilst it might be good. It's not specifically tailored to you. It will never be as good as what's in your head.

 

Han and Boba are more interesting off-screen!

 

I would also argue the SW prequels (and most prequels for that matter) are doomed by this. This psychology is an element as to why they received such bad reviews. They did not let us invest at an emotional level into the universe .. instead, detracted from it by explaining EVERYTHING .. down to the force.

 

TFA also fits this basket as it gave us a story, but did not give us the chance to emotionally invest in it. Sure, it leaves us with questions like "Who is Rey?", "Why did Kylo leave his parents?", "Why is Luke on a secluded island?" but we know these questions will be answered in future installments. TFA did not enrich OUR universe. 

 

There is an infinite universe out there for us to play in. I'd rather see some original stories and new characters from other arcs. Rogue One is a great start. It also gave us a taste of the universe and left some holes for us to fill. "Why does Kennick wear white?", " What the hell do the Urso's farm?", " What were the other projects Jyn read out when looking for Stardust?", What's the story behind Saw leaving the Rebellion?", "Is the blind guy a jedi and what is his history?". Ooooh, I'm intrigued .. I have an answer to these questions .. I know you do too. You have just expanded your own personal canon .. an experience the prequels and TFA denied you.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Conandoodle

[Crabbok 9,869]

This is crazy.   So many people dissing Episode 7.   Like - After episode 7 first came out everyone was praising it and there were very few naysayers.  Now it feels like everyone's opinion has changed.  Almost like it's the prequels all over again.   This is crazy.  It's like next year people will be trash talking Rogue one.  

[FTS Gecko 24,135]

Are you saying people aren't allowed to re-evaluate their opinions, Crabbock?

Personally, my opinion hasn't changed, and I'm not "dissing" anything. TFA is a decent film, and certainly better than the prequels. It's also extremely derivative to the point that it's more of a remake than a sequel.

Rogue One, on the other hand, is amazing.

[Crabbok 9,869]

Are you saying people aren't allowed to re-evaluate their opinions, Crabbock?

Personally, my opinion hasn't changed, and I'm not "dissing" anything. TFA is a decent film, and certainly better than the prequels. It's also extremely derivative to the point that it's more of a remake than a sequel.

Rogue One, on the other hand, is amazing.

Nah I'm not saying that at all... it's just strange how the climate feels so different now, when discussing these films.   Like, right after TFA - everyone was like "OMG JOY JOY JOY" and funny how now people have changed...   And I'm over here like "JOY JOY JOY!" still.   I think I'm gonna be on permanent "JOY JOY JOY!" for years to come.  

 

 Hey it's a happy place to be.... Planet joy!

[Jo Jo 4,808]

Yeah... I had the same opinion of TFA when I walked out of the theater. I have since watched it once at a friends house and had a similar opinion. Haven't bought the bluray and really don't have any desire to watch it. Episode 8 is going to have to be on par with Rogue One to salvage the new trilogy for me.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Jo Jo

[YwingAce 2,546]

TFA was pretty bad. We basically got politically correct ANH with shallow, boring characters, a predictable plot, and nothing new to the saga. R1 on the other hand added several new interesting locations, info about kyber crystals, expanded the dynamic of the whole fractured Rebellion, gave us nice explanations to some plot holes from Episode 4, and created more original content then TFA. Sure we knew how it was gonna end, but it's not about the ending, it's about the journey.

[Vineheart01 6,403]

This is crazy.   So many people dissing Episode 7.   Like - After episode 7 first came out everyone was praising it and there were very few naysayers.  Now it feels like everyone's opinion has changed.  Almost like it's the prequels all over again.   This is crazy.  It's like next year people will be trash talking Rogue one.  

My opinion did not change at all.

 

I didnt see it in a theatre, i have the dvd. I had to fight the urge to shut it off because it was so lame/predictable/all over the place. I didnt even have that with the prequels.

[YwingAce 2,546]

Yea my opinion hasn't changed at all. I saw it and thought it was disappointing to put it nicely, and my opinion still hasn't changed on that.