Has the forum become one big Off-Topic Forum?

[Beatty 1,730]

I like to browse the forums when I am bored hoping to find a good thread on Strategy or Tactics to brush up on my knowledge since I've been absent for a little while from the game. But more often than not the forums are full of Off-Topic conversations that have little to do with the actual game itself. I include "wishlist" threads and "I hate..." or "I love..." threads because those are still not actually about the game and are just opinion pieces.

I would love to see the forums become an actual game related site again and wish we would get more Game-Talk so bored people would have more to talk about than their opinions on the look of the latest ship or how the game sucks because it includes the very elements that made Star Wars great to begin with.

Any thoughts on how to bring the main forum back into line or will the FFG site become an ugly Off-Topic forum where the actual game is forgotten?

[Snipafist 7,536]

There's no way to make people discuss things in a particular way barring (over-)active moderation. I'm sympathetic to your plight, mind you. A lot of the main forum topics are generally garbage created because a poster feels a certain way or wants to "what if" about this or that and there's little actual analysis anywhere. It's overwhelmingly about how everyone feels rather than anything more objective. In a situation where it's all about how we feel, there's really no right or wrong and so there's not a lot of actual interaction beyond just folks yelling out how they feel about this or that, so the topic kind of just meanders endlessly without any real conclusion. Sometimes it gets ugly when there's a disagreement but if the topic was begun because of a feeling, then the poster(s) will continue fighting because their feelings cannot be proven wrong and you start flirting with topic lock-downs when it gets really bad. We usually have a handful of solid threads where strategy/tactics get discussed but those are definitely the minority.

 

This has been the case in every miniature wargaming forum I've ever been a member of*. If I had to hazard a guess as to why, I think it comes down to the democratic nature of forums. Most people playing any given game are enthusiastic amateurs. They're not necessarily very analytical or very good at the game but they like the game and that's fine for everybody involved. When they get to an online forum they don't really know the rules very well and they don't really feel comfortable talking about strategy or tactics and so they gravitate to the junk threads. They do sometimes add to the strategy/tactics threads but it's often unhelpful: house rules they came up with out of nowhere, home-brewed new inclusions to the game the topic made them think of, anecdotal stories of something that happened in a game that contradicts a probability analysis, etc. Overall it unfavorably affects the static to noise ratio, but it is a community forum. So long as you're obeying the forum rules and you're a part of the community, you've got just as much right to post about (whatever) as someone who prefers "crunchier" posts.

 

I've generally found that blogs are superior methods for communicating crunchier ideas. The problem there is blogs by their nature are less about conversations and more about exclaiming one particular point, so while the basic idea can be very intriguing, it is often in a rough shape that has not been refined by discussion. Email chains do all right for me - my friends and I have running email chains where we discuss (whatever game) sometimes in great detail. Because everyone knows (mostly) everyone else in the email chain, you tend to get more respectful and less meandering topics. If someone is consistently distracting or unhelpful, they're politely asked to stop wasting everyone's time. This request is often effective because said person can get ejected from the chain if the others find them consistently problematic; the lesson being "coercion and social pressure don't have a great reputation but they're useful for keeping things organized."

So I guess what I'm getting at is I don't think there's any way to get the forum to up its game overall. You can try, but you've got no basis for enforcement. You'd likely be better off exploring options to foster a more hand-picked group in a private forum or email chain. I know that's fairly common in competitive miniature-gaming (being aware of several such "secret societies" in Warmachine, a game that's so competitive it can have problems being an actually-fun game, but I digress). Is that kind of thing elitist? Absolutely. But you're free to associate with (or not) whoever you choose. If being part of a community forum isn't working out great for you, then find an avenue of discussion you find more rewarding.

 

*To my knowledge that would include: Warhammer Fantasy, Warhammer 40K, Dropzone Commander, Dystopian Wars, Battlefleet Gothic, Warmachine/Hordes, and Infinity forums. Usually the official ones and one or two unofficial ones as well. I don't play any of those games any more, but I do remember how their forums operated.

[Ginkapo 9,320]

Snipa, we can do more though.

There are enough of us who have enough knowledge to be able to lead discussion and shut down needless threads with helpful guidance.

Take Caldias' thread for instance, there isnt an issue with strategic. He is being needlessly negative through ignorance. We can teach and then twist the thread into something positive.

Its about our intentions and dedication to lead.

[Snipafist 7,536]

Snipa, we can do more though.

There are enough of us who have enough knowledge to be able to lead discussion and shut down needless threads with helpful guidance.

Take Caldias' thread for instance, there isnt an issue with strategic. He is being needlessly negative through ignorance. We can teach and then twist the thread into something positive.

Its about our intentions and dedication to lead.

I'm open to hearing ideas for how to accomplish that, please don't get me wrong. Everyone so far in this thread has post counts in the thousands so we are clearly active posters on these forums!

...but the question becomes then "if the people who want meatier discussions need to put in the effort to police/guide others in addition to the effort to actually engage in these theoretical discussions, then why not save their effort by just going elsewhere to have more substantive discussions among themselves and save themselves the effort of policing/guiding people who probably don't want to be policed/guided?"

[Ginkapo 9,320]

then why not save their effort by just going elsewhere to have more substantive discussions among themselves and save themselves the effort of policing/guiding people who probably don't want to be policed/guided?"

Yeah thats the real issue, and I am as guilty of that as others.

Not sure the answer to be honest.

[Beatty 1,730]

There's no way to make people discuss things in a particular way barring (over-)active moderation. I'm sympathetic to your plight, mind you. A lot of the main forum topics are generally garbage created because a poster feels a certain way or wants to "what if" about this or that and there's little actual analysis anywhere. It's overwhelmingly about how everyone feels rather than anything more objective. In a situation where it's all about how we feel, there's really no right or wrong and so there's not a lot of actual interaction beyond just folks yelling out how they feel about this or that, so the topic kind of just meanders endlessly without any real conclusion. Sometimes it gets ugly when there's a disagreement but if the topic was begun because of a feeling, then the poster(s) will continue fighting because their feelings cannot be proven wrong and you start flirting with topic lock-downs when it gets really bad. We usually have a handful of solid threads where strategy/tactics get discussed but those are definitely the minority.

 

This has been the case in every miniature wargaming forum I've ever been a member of*. If I had to hazard a guess as to why, I think it comes down to the democratic nature of forums. Most people playing any given game are enthusiastic amateurs. They're not necessarily very analytical or very good at the game but they like the game and that's fine for everybody involved. When they get to an online forum they don't really know the rules very well and they don't really feel comfortable talking about strategy or tactics and so they gravitate to the junk threads. They do sometimes add to the strategy/tactics threads but it's often unhelpful: house rules they came up with out of nowhere, home-brewed new inclusions to the game the topic made them think of, anecdotal stories of something that happened in a game that contradicts a probability analysis, etc. Overall it unfavorably affects the static to noise ratio, but it is a community forum. So long as you're obeying the forum rules and you're a part of the community, you've got just as much right to post about (whatever) as someone who prefers "crunchier" posts.

 

I've generally found that blogs are superior methods for communicating crunchier ideas. The problem there is blogs by their nature are less about conversations and more about exclaiming one particular point, so while the basic idea can be very intriguing, it is often in a rough shape that has not been refined by discussion. Email chains do all right for me - my friends and I have running email chains where we discuss (whatever game) sometimes in great detail. Because everyone knows (mostly) everyone else in the email chain, you tend to get more respectful and less meandering topics. If someone is consistently distracting or unhelpful, they're politely asked to stop wasting everyone's time. This request is often effective because said person can get ejected from the chain if the others find them consistently problematic; the lesson being "coercion and social pressure don't have a great reputation but they're useful for keeping things organized."

So I guess what I'm getting at is I don't think there's any way to get the forum to up its game overall. You can try, but you've got no basis for enforcement. You'd likely be better off exploring options to foster a more hand-picked group in a private forum or email chain. I know that's fairly common in competitive miniature-gaming (being aware of several such "secret societies" in Warmachine, a game that's so competitive it can have problems being an actually-fun game, but I digress). Is that kind of thing elitist? Absolutely. But you're free to associate with (or not) whoever you choose. If being part of a community forum isn't working out great for you, then find an avenue of discussion you find more rewarding.

 

*To my knowledge that would include: Warhammer Fantasy, Warhammer 40K, Dropzone Commander, Dystopian Wars, Battlefleet Gothic, Warmachine/Hordes, and Infinity forums. Usually the official ones and one or two unofficial ones as well. I don't play any of those games any more, but I do remember how their forums operated.

Excellent post. You're right on all accounts and I know this, just frustrated with the "Why are Squadrons in the game?" threads instead of "How do I deal with Squadrons?" threads. Also why don't people use the Off-Topic forum for non-game related threads? That's why it's here in the first place. To keep the main forum clear of needless chatter.

[Snipafist 7,536]

Oh I absolutely concur. It's classic goalpost-moving. "Hey, this thing keeps beating me and I don't like it so we should change the rules so everyone else has to change and not me!" is pedantic. It's not helpful or productive. We could be having a great a useful conversation about how to deal with flotilla+bomber fleets which would allow people who are skilled to discuss approaches and educate players who aren't skilled at handling those fleet types, but instead we're watching a forum member throw a tantrum. It's very sad.

Or to use one of my favorite quotes, "it's easier to put on slippers than carpet the whole world."

Edited December 18, 2016 by Snipafist

[Ginkapo 9,320]

Hmmm, maybe we should just stop replying to destructive threads?

[Green Knight 9,732]

Also: it's worse now than ever before. Food for thought. 

[Dedmanzhand 258]

RIP the painting/mod thread :-(

[Undeadguy 5,749]

In between the lull of wave 3/4 and hearing about wave 5, I tried to make a large thread once a week about a specific topic. They weren't super creative, but I'm surprised how many people wanted to have their story/idea heard. Some of these include Stuck in a Rut, Top 3 Things about Armada, What Card Would you Design? and The Decline of Large Ships.

 

There was a lot of discussion amongst all of them, the majority of it fluff with the exception of The Decline of Large Ships. Man, people did not agree with my initial reaction to the wave 3/4 meta where large ships were played less.

 

I think the best way to get the forums "on target" is to create threads that you want to discuss. Ask large, blanket questions like "How can we reduce/mitigate activation advantage of MSU lists?" or "With the new Wave 5+CC content, what is the best way to create an anti-bomber list for 60-70 points?"

 

You have to entice a few key players, any of us would work, to respond to your question/post. People will flock to it if they have their own input. And remember, everyone wants their voice to be heard. Not everyone feels comfortable declaring a statement to be true, and that is fine. There is enough of that in the rules forum.

[BrobaFett 4,209]

Maybe we should just start all of the serious threads regarding Armada gameplay here?

 

I highly doubt the average de-railer as outlined in Snipa's post has ever even ventured to this sub, because if they had many of those topics would be here. That makes Off-Topic the last great sanctum of the people who actually read the forums deeply and who are most likely to stay constructive and (probably most ironically) on-topic.

[Ginkapo 9,320]

Thats a sure fire way to kill a forum

[Caldias 2,209]

Snipa, we can do more though.

There are enough of us who have enough knowledge to be able to lead discussion and shut down needless threads with helpful guidance.

Take Caldias' thread for instance, there isnt an issue with strategic. He is being needlessly negative through ignorance. We can teach and then twist the thread into something positive.

Its about our intentions and dedication to lead.

 

Hey man, that was an honest question and I don't feel I was being negative, and your "answer" actually doesn't answer it as written, even if it does shed a light on developer intent.

 

People being needlessly jerky and melodramatic when answering simple questions or observations is another way for forums to die.

[WWPDSteven 2,215]

 

 

Its about our intentions and dedication to lead.

 

Be the hero we need. Lead these poor unwashed masses into the light of Armada! Deliver us!

[DrunkTarkin 850]

Its about our intentions and dedication to lead.

Can someone please link that sweet sweet Nickelback hero song? I need background music when I read a line like that.

[RhymerNation 37]

 

Its about our intentions and dedication to lead.

Can someone please link that sweet sweet Nickelback hero song? I need background music when I read a line like that.

 

 

 

[DrunkTarkin 850]

Bingo.

[Drasnighta 26,831]

I'm more than subtly amused by the concept of DrunkTarkin5....

 

 

He's Alive, after all.

[Snipafist 7,536]

It's getting even worse out there. Even more half-baked sanctimonious "I hate everything about this game" posts coming from complete nobodies.

It's really confusing to me given wave 5 seems to have blown the meta wide open again, but this time it seems neither faction got left behind. If there's a time to be moody and negative, now is not that time.

[Stasy 2,501]

It's getting even worse out there. Even more half-baked sanctimonious "I hate everything about this game" posts coming from complete nobodies.

It's really confusing to me given wave 5 seems to have blown the meta wide open again, but this time it seems neither faction got left behind. If there's a time to be moody and negative, now is not that time.

I was going to post saying that you guys are getting a little serious...

Then the last two days of posting has happened and you really hit the nail on the head.

I'm always down for casual discussion, but those posts are just... well, you're not gaining anything by them.

[Drasnighta 26,831]

Once again, I feel like a freaking prophet.

[Jondavies72 575]

Well if there is a thread you don't like you could always derail it into religion or politics FFGjosh or friends will then do the rest and lock it...... It's a bit mean and it may just get you a ban...... Or someone could put up a lets be positive in our threads thread. If we add to it every day it will stay at the top. We could use it to vote for our favourite threads, congratulate people on constructive posts etc........

[Drasnighta 26,831]

Well if there is a thread you don't like you could always derail it into religion or politics FFGjosh or friends will then do the rest and lock it...... It's a bit mean and it may just get you a ban...... Or someone could put up a lets be positive in our threads thread. If we add to it every day it will stay at the top. We could use it to vote for our favourite threads, congratulate people on constructive posts etc........

 

 

It runs the risk of going like this:

PersonA:  Derails Thread into Politics/Religion

PersonB: Reports Thread for dissenting into Forbidden Topics

FFGEmployeeC: Locks thread, due to PersonA's reponse.  PersonA is also served a Warning / Temporary Ban.  Repeat offenders get Permanent Bans.

 

 

 

It does happen.

[Madaghmire 7,274]

Nothing stopping folks from creating, to borrow from Snipa, a "crunchier" thread.

For what its worth theres a wave 3/4 Chewie thread in production, but its still in the committee phase. Thats more fluffy than crunchy but the goal has always been to spark more analytical discussions about the value of certain cards/ships/squads as well as meta analysis.