RPG. Homebrew rules for powering up Bows among Scorpions

[LucaCherstich 27]

I've been recently interested in powering up the Bow use among Scorpion Bushi.

Here are some homebrew stuff of mine.

Please, give me your comments!

 

NEW BAYUSHI VASSAL FAMILY: Meiki family

Mon:  A scorpion resting over a bow

Information: When Shiro no Uragiru became Kyuden Ashinagabachi more than a few Scorpions felt the need for revenge. The voice of the general Bayushi Meiki was particularly influential in this group and for decades his followers plotted revenge against the Wasp. Such revengeful feelings were also focused on the Mantis, as they included the Wasp. With time it was increasingly clear that Shiro no Uragiru would have never cam back under Scorpion rule and the Castle of the Fortunate Husband was created in the Nezuban Province, bordering the Tsuruchi lands.

The traditionalists wanting revenge on the Tsuruchi became less numerous but they existed anyway, even if reduced in number. In order not to lose such focused warriors the Bayushi lords decided to create a vassal family, the Meiki, with the task of guarding this castle, nominally to protect the road to Hotei Seido.

Everybody knows that the Meiki's forces are not adequate to face the Tsuruchi and start a war with the Mantis, nevertheless the Meiki take their duty with passion, defending the area from bandits. They developed a special skill with bows, developing a technique based on the frequency of arrows shot. The Meiki secretly hope for the day when their revenge will come. More than a few generations of Meiki have passed away waiting for that day, but their hope never fade away. Even so, they remain faithful to their vow to the Bayushi, waiting for their Bayushi lords'order before starting any hostility.

Common Schools: Bayushi Bushi with the new paths "Meiki Archer" and "Master of Blade and Arrow " (see below).

Trait: +1 Reflexes

Common Skills: Kyujutsu, Craft: Bows.

Special: They can buy the "Heart of vengeance: Mantis" (or Wasp according to the era) for only 4 points instead of 5.

 

 

NEW PATH: Meiki Archer [bushi]

Archers from the Meiki family decided to focus their training more on the bow than on the sword. Their arrows may not be as accurate as the Tsuruchi's ones but a Meiki knows how to quickly shot two arrows in the same time that a normal archer shoots one.

Technique Rank: 2

Replaces: Bayushi Bushi 2

Requirements: Kyujutsu 4, Void 3

Technique: Quick Stings — When you spend a Void point using a bow, you receive the bonuses from that Void expenditure as well as 2 Free Raises on the Extra Attack maneuver.

NOTE: MY ONLY DOUBT HERE IS WHETHER TO CUT OFF OR NOT THIS VoiD EXPENDITURE GIVING JUST 2 FREE RAISES FOR FREE...THE REASON IS THAT BAYUSHI BUSHI 2 RANK IS QUITE A POWERFUL THING TO BE EXCHANGED FOR THIS PATH.

 

NEW PATH: Master of Blade and Arrow (Bushi)  

Scorpion armies are not as numerous as Lion ones, neither they can count of the richness of the Crane economy. Scorpion champions usually answered this problem focusing on treachery and intimidation. However during the 8th century the Scorpion Champion Bayushi Kuronai decided that a focus on more traditional means of warfare was not a completely bad idea for his clan. Consequently he created a small dojo nearby Kyuden Bayushi where the best bowmen and swordmen of his clan can train together. They formed an elite unit, more focused on traditional Rokugani warfare than other Scorpion units. The dojo declined later on but it regained some popularity in the early 12th century.

Technique Rank: 4

Replaces: Any Scorpion Bushi 4

Requirements: Kyujutsu 4, Kenjutsu 4

Technique: Swords and Bows — Attacking is a Simple Action for you while you use bows and swords.

Edited December 18, 2016 by LucaCherstich

[Samurai Fox 124]

Okay, first I'd say, of all the clans getting anything for using the bow, the Scorpion would be the last on my list.  The Lion, with their huge armies, and much, much more martial tradition and customs, don't get anything.  The only clans outside of the Mantis (actually, even with the Mantis, on the Tsuruchi are particularly good in archery) are the Dragon and the Unicorn, both of which are extremely specialized forms of archery mentioned several times in the Lore as being a point of their clan.  The Scorpion are probably the second least martial clan, only beaten out by the pacifist Phoenix.  The Crane have been forced to have a fairly large military due to their tradition of wars with the Lion and Crab, and the Dragon are well established as having a fairly strong martial tradition, oddly enough; the Crab,the Lion, and others have praised their warrior traditions even while insulting the rest of the Dragon's ways in more than one book.  So yeah, I don't even think the Scorpion would have one archery path, let alone two.

That being said, let's get to judging the paths.

 

The Meiki Archer path is far too strong.  With it, a Bayushi bushi would basically be just as good at archer as a Rank 2 Tsuruchi.  For reference, the Tsuruchi archer gets lots of bonuses with Yumi...because of how limited the weapon is.  They are near helpless outside of using their bows, something that will come up quiet often in any game.  Comparatively, someone getting a path in archer doesn't get as much because they're already capable outside of fighting with a bow.  I'd say it'd be fair if you lower the bonus to 1 Free Raise on Kyujutsu (Yumi) rolls that you've enhanced with a Void Point; however, personally, that's just too broad for me to like.  The Scorpion are all about being dirty rotten cheaters and villains, and they only reason they'd care about archery is the fact that most of the time, you're aiming at someone who can't fight back fairly.  As such, I'd change it something along the lines to this:
Meiki Archer

Technique Rank: 2

Replaces: Bayushi Bushi 2

Requirements: Kyujutsu 4, Void 3

Technique: The Silent Tail Stings — When you attack an opponent from Ambush, you may add your Stealth rank to your first Attack and Damage Roll made with a bow.

But, that's just to fit my tastes; the Meiki family you've created seems to focus on simple martial tradition (with little focus on "traditional" Scorpion flavor), so that might be part of it.

 

As for the Rank 4 Technique, I'd strongly say no to it entirely.  At Rank 4, Bayushi Bushi get melee attacks as a Free Action.  You've "reduced" it to using swords, but given them bows as well.  They lose very little, as only a handful of bushi ever use any weapon other than a Katana outside of schools that focus on it (such as the Hida or the Moto Bushi), and in turn, they gain something very few bushi get (aside from the Tsuruchi, I can only think of two schools that get it naturally, both belonging to the Unicorn and requiring the bushi to be mounted).  Even the Dragon, with the Dragon's Wind path, only get to use Bows as simple actions by giving up their Rank 4 path, rather than just limiting their Rank 3 (when they traditionally get simple action attacks) to being with bows and Swords.
Sorry I had little positive to say about your work.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Samurai Fox

[AtoMaki 1,373]

I'm fairly certain that you can't use the Extra Attack Maneuver with a bow because you have to reload between shots with a Free Action. 

[LucaCherstich 27]

Thank you for your input!

We all can have different opinions: that's why I write here, and maybe you'll change my ideas, but here are just a few considerations of mine

 

 

Okay, first I'd say, of all the clans getting anything for using the bow, the Scorpion would be the last on my list.  The Lion, with their huge armies, and much, much more martial tradition and customs, don't get anything. 

Well...I use an homebrew archer path for the Lion!!!

The original concept was by somebody else by I changed it a bit

 

Koritome Archer [bushi]

Ever since his heroism and dedication in defending the Emperor Himself from the gaijin barbarians at the Battle of White Stag, Matsu Koritome's legacy has lived on in this small but ferociously loyal vassal family. Though the Tsuruchi certainly disagree, the Lion often claim that the Koritome dojo produces the finest archers in the Empire, honoring their founder's practice of the art. In war, the Koritome form small but essential archery units that are tasked to fire strategically on important targets, such as enemy reserves or commanders. Samurai of the Koritome family have a well-deserved reputation for their utter dedication to duty.

Technique Rank: 2

Replaces: Matsu Berserker 2

Requirements: Reflexes 3, Willpower 3, Kyujutsu 3

Technique: Without Fail - Lion generals know that whatever task they give the honorable Koritome, no matter how dangerous, it will be accomplished without fail.

Your kyujutsu attacks are considered Melee attacks for the possibility of being used in the Full Attack stance and for the sake of any technique specifically designed for melee weapons (e.g. Matsu Berserker R3).  Note that you still suffer the normal -10 penalty for using a bow in melee.

 

The Meiki Archer path is far too strong.  With it, a Bayushi bushi would basically be just as good at archer as a Rank 2 Tsuruchi.  

I disagree.

The Meiki technique is activated only when you spend a Void point (and there's a limited amount of those while Tsuruchi R2 is not just "always on, without Void expenditure" but it is also one of the very few cases where a R2 technique gives two things instead than one.

As a final note I know that 2 free raises sound like a lot but they are limted to a very specific maneuver, leaving still a pretty steep price (3 raises) on teh Extra Attack Maneuver.

 

Furthermore please see what Bayushi R2 loses: A Free Raise on Feint....the most over-powered maneuver in this game!

 

 

 

Meiki Archer

Technique Rank: 2

Replaces: Bayushi Bushi 2

Requirements: Kyujutsu 4, Void 3

Technique: The Silent Tail Stings — When you attack an opponent from Ambush, you mad add your first Attack and Damage Roll made with a bow.

I know, my head has been toying with this kind of idea about ambushes.

But I've thrown it away since I like vassal families to give complexity and variety to clans which, otherwise, seem boringly mono-thematic.

Maybe it's just me but monothematic clans are not believable and (at least for me and my tastes) they are also a bit boring.

Maybe I'll do another path as you say but for Ninjas.

 

 

As for the Rank 4 Technique, I'd strongly say no to it entirely.  At Rank 4, Bayushi Bushi get melee attacks as a Free Action.  You've "reduced" it to using swords, but given them bows as well.  They lose very little, as only a handful of bushi ever use any weapon other than a Katana outside of schools that focus on it (such as the Hida or the Moto Bushi), and in turn, they gain something very few bushi get (aside from the Tsuruchi, I can only think of two schools that get it naturally, both belonging to the Unicorn and requiring the bushi to be mounted).  Even the Dragon, with the Dragon's Wind path, only get to use Bows as simple actions by giving up their Rank 4 path, rather than just limiting their Rank 3 (when they traditionally get simple action attacks) to being with bows and Swords.

 

So, according to you, the Daidoji Scout R4 is overpowered?

 

And, considering the "everybody uses Katana" thing I tend to use a lot of homebrew kata and manuvers, so the PCs in my games often get interest in the (often forgotten) Yari or the bows.

And I tend to give Samurai keyword to bows, as suggested by BoA (and more respondent to what a Samurai really was).

So, maybe, it's just that my perspective that it is not normal.

 

 

I'm fairly certain that you can't use the Extra Attack Maneuver with a bow because you have to reload between shots with a Free Action. 

 

Really? Where is it?

Do you consider the "Draw a weapon (small)" equal to reloading a bow?

And, if so, how can it be that Tsuruchi Archer R3 or Daidoji Scout R4 shoot twice (2 simple actions for attacking and 2 Free actions for reloading?).

 

I mean, what you say is rational and sounds right.

But I really guess it's a "GM judgement" thing, interpreting (one of the many) holes in the L5R rules.

 

 

Sorry I had little positive to say about your work.

Do not worry!

And thank you for your reply!

 

Please, help me seeing my faults.

I tend to staunchly defend my things but, sooner or later, if they are faulty I come to see the error and accept the criticism.

Thank you.

Edited December 20, 2016 by LucaCherstich

[Samurai Fox 124]

Okay, first off, remember that a Free Raise is basically better than getting a +1k1 bonus to a roll; on average, you'll be rolling around 5, and the predictability of a Free Raise often makes it better than the risk of +1k1.  So your school bonus basically turns a Void Point on a Kyujutsu roll into +3k3, only more consistent in the bonus.  As for the limitation based on use of a Void Point, consider how often a party fights each adventure.  My parties rarely have more than a few battles, most of which they have near full Void Points for, and they rarely have time to spend them all (combat in L5R should be quick and deadly, after all). Note of course that they rarely play schools that spam Void Points (Shiba Bushi, Seppun Bodyguard, so on), so that factors into it, I admit.  But, my point is that while the Void Point bonus is somewhat limiting, for what you grant them, it pretty darn awesome.  As for it being limited to Extra Attack, remember the Tsuruchi's rank 2 bonus is a single Free Raise toward a Called Shot plus +2k0 toward damage with a bow (many people consider a +1k0 less useful than a flat +2 bonus); comparatively, I'd say your school has around equal standing to the Tsuruchi, who are supposed to be the best of the best at Archery (school wise).

As for the Daidoji Scout, no, I do not consider it Overpowered, because, like the Tsuruchi and the Shinjo or Utaku bushi, it's a very specialized school.  The Tsuruchi can't use a non-bow weapon to save their lives, the Shinjo/Utaku might as well be surgically attached to their horses (the Shinjo, less so, but they're ridiculously defensive in play, so it evens out), and the Daidoji are near pure ambush fighters.  Their Ranks 1 & 2 are useless outside of their Ambush nitch, their rank 3 is nice, but you'll notice most bushi have a few tools aimed toward letting them move outside their nitch just a little, and their Rank 5 is very unimpressive for a Rank 5.  So, I argue their school is balanced enough to let them have bow attacks as simple actions; after all, they are an Ambush-centered school...something bows are a tad helpful at.
Also, edited my post as I realized an error; I meant to say "When you attack an opponent from Ambush, you may add your Stealth rank to your first Attack and Damage Roll made with a bow" on the Meiki Archer.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Samurai Fox

[Samurai Fox 124]

I know, my head has been toying with this kind of idea about ambushes.

But I've thrown it away since I like vassal families to give complexity and variety to clans which, otherwise, seem boringly mono-thematic.

Maybe it's just me but monothematic clans are not believable and (at least for me and my tastes) they are also a bit boring.

Maybe I'll do another path as you say but for Ninjas.

Push come to shove, I do admit that letting vassal families have some fun Alternate Paths is fun, and can add a lot of flavor to them (not to mention purpose).  So as long as they don't do too much to step on the toes of other Clan's style, it cool.  I'm just recalling back in 3rd edition, when the Crab and Mantis paths made them better duelists than the Kakita with their whole school!  Haha, I guess I just advice caution in that regard.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Samurai Fox

[WHW 1,815]

Lions are awesome archers by default. Their basic techniques are amazing for archery - Akodo get the ignore armor+fleshcutter combo and massive accuracy bonus, Matsu get great damage. All you need for a Lion archer is good kyujutsu and reflexes. 
In general, bows+Simple Action Attacks = bad idea if you want melee to stay relevant and competitive at all. Ability to move and shoot turns fights into kitefests. Remember:
1. There is nothing in basic rules stopping you from using Knockdown with ranged attacks, and Knocking your opponents down will make them lose any kind of kitefest no matter what is their Water
2. You can use your 3rd technique with ranged weapons, as long as the target is within 30 feet of you. If your Scorpion archer is a ****, and he is because Scorpion, he will delay his turn enough so the target will be within 30 feet, shoot them with a Fatiguing Knockdown shot, and then move back. If their target is slow enough or has no access to simple action attacks, they actually can shoot you twice, free action move away, and make themselves unreachable for you. And, uh, by giving them better extra attack, you are basically giving them even more power to do so.

3. 2nd technique is already good for archery anyway; nothing prevents you from Feinting with bows (other than common sense, and common sense says that feinting is just a precision attack in this game anyway)

If you want strong archery while leaving melee relevant, give them ability to shoot twice as a complex action as long as they remain stationary. It's what I did to Wasp Archers, too.

I would also suggest trying something like "Dojo-Advantages" if you want more diverse clans. In our experience, it works better than bloating techniques; we are currently playing with only core schools and minimal alternate paths, but with each character having ability to skill related perks that are mutually activatable (a "conditional, switchable technique" slot, so to speak). 

EDIT EDIT
"It only works when you spend a Void Point!" is not as relevant for archers as for anyone else. Anyone else has to make a really hard choice of "what do I Void for this round", as Void tends to be the the straw that breaks the camels back (especially the +10 ATN one; during our last game, spamming that singlehandely saved our bushi when he was swarmed by angry wolf-spirits - about 40% more attacks would hit he didn't do that). Archers don't have that problem, as they won't be subject to multiple attacks, can't spend Void on damage anyway, and aren't that much penalized by not having Initiative; while in melee, this technique would have a serious opportunity cost, for archery there isn't really one. It's a no brainer decided by "is this even worth spending Void on", not "is this the best use of Void now".

EDIT EDIT EDIT
Also remember that 5 Raises is inherently more worth more than 1 Raise + 1 Raise + 1 Raise + 1 Raise + 1 Raise. That's because having to Raise 5 times has bigger costs; it has to be valued against having to buy Void 5 (or Great Potential) and any other possible manuever combination that can be utilized by combining 5 Raises (for example, Knockdown+Disarm, or Knockdown+Feint, or...so on). By giving them 2 extra raises on Extra Attack, you are basically making it possible as early as Void 3 to get these Extra Attacks going, and it also makes Extra Attack possible against opponents that should not be, due to their ATN, normally extra-attackable. 

EDIT

Koritome Archer [bushi]

Ever since his heroism and dedication in defending the Emperor Himself from the gaijin barbarians at the Battle of White Stag, Matsu Koritome's legacy has lived on in this small but ferociously loyal vassal family. Though the Tsuruchi certainly disagree, the Lion often claim that the Koritome dojo produces the finest archers in the Empire, honoring their founder's practice of the art. In war, the Koritome form small but essential archery units that are tasked to fire strategically on important targets, such as enemy reserves or commanders. Samurai of the Koritome family have a well-deserved reputation for their utter dedication to duty.

Technique Rank: 2

Replaces: Matsu Berserker 2

Requirements: Reflexes 3, Willpower 3, Kyujutsu 3

Technique: Without Fail - Lion generals know that whatever task they give the honorable Koritome, no matter how dangerous, it will be accomplished without fail.

Your kyujutsu attacks are considered Melee attacks for the possibility of being used in the Full Attack stance and for the sake of any technique specifically designed for melee weapons (e.g. Matsu Berserker R3).  Note that you still suffer the normal -10 penalty for using a bow in melee.

You just gave them ability to gain +2k1 on attack rolls without the usual cost (yeah, you get that -10 to ATN...but you are an archer, you won't be attacked as much as meleers) and gave them ability to SAA with bows. Basically, you made a technique that turns matsu into very angry gatling guns that shoot two +2k1 accuracy +7 dmg arrows per round. This is, remember, a school/family combo that starts with 4 strength; they are going to burst you with gigantic damage and then knockdown you into oblivion. And yes, +7 DMG makes them inherently better at knockdown, because 7 dmg is usually about a wound rank, and that equals to wound penalties, which means easier Knockdown.

Edited December 21, 2016 by WHW

[Kubernes 736]

My biggest concern is that this doesn't feel like the Scorpion at all. The description is about possible revenge and protection of a road to Hotei Seido. Why not focus on one of those two aspects rather than just something so simple as more shots? Maybe they like focusing on disabling people with shots to limbs or know terrain better than others?

[LucaCherstich 27]

First of all, I like to say that, maybe, my starting point of view with game & balance about bows is a bit different from normal L5R.

I like Samurai in my games not to be "katana, Tetsubo, Nodachi" and nothing else.

I think that all Samurai, whatever their clan is, should be good with bows. It is inherent in my concept of what a Samurai is.

 

Therefore I use the suggestion from BoA and give Samurai keywords also to Yumi & Han-Kyu (I give it also to Yari...but this is another story).

This means that SA attacks with bows are more diffused in my games: Akodo, Hida, Hiruma, Kakita, Mirumoto, Yoritomo, Shiba & Shinjo bushi all get SA with bows.

Is this un-balancing?

Possibly it is, but in my own Rokugan Samurai are not over-focused on their Katana more than what is necessary and fun.

 

Note that Schools which normally give SA with bows (Tsuruchi, Daidoji Scouts, Shinjo while mounted) still keep their "specialty" since I've made Samurai weapon not all bows, but only Yumi & Han-Kyu (the Dai-kyu or, my homebrew version of the Tsuruchi longbow are not Samurai weapons).

 

By the way, giving Samurai keyword to Yumi also means that schools with Melee (and not SamuraI) SA do not give Bows SA.

So normal Bayushi and Matsu do not get SA with bows.

But I want mechanics for Matsu archers (the Koritome) and Bayushi archers (my homebrew Meiki), so I was also looking for ways for giving them more attacks in order to keep their focus on bows in comparison with all many other Bushi schools which give Samurai SA attacks (and therefore in my homebrew games SA with Bows).

 

My biggest concern is that this doesn't feel like the Scorpion at all. The description is about possible revenge and protection of a road to Hotei Seido. Why not focus on one of those two aspects rather than just something so simple as more shots? Maybe they like focusing on disabling people with shots to limbs or know terrain better than others?

I know, they do not look like typical Scorpion.

But what's a scorpion like? Are they all the same?

My problem is exactly that I hate mono-focusing clans.

They should have sub-groups specializing in things which have nothing to do with the clan main "theme".

 

So, going back to another side of your comment: they should have a technique which help them focusing on their duty.

However I think that giving them more shots is not different for their purpose than focusing on disabling people.

But thank you for the input...I maybe start thinking about it.

 

 

3. 2nd technique is already good for archery anyway; nothing prevents you from Feinting with bows (other than common sense, and common sense says that feinting is just a precision attack in this game anyway)

You are basically saying that even if it is called "Feint" this maneuver it's not Feint at all.

Maybe you are right.

But still tha name remains and in games I still consider it Feint (even if it is an over-powered version).

To put is simply: I do not allow it with bows.

I know Feinting is overpowered...but, whatever level of power it has, it is senseless to allow somebody to feint with arrows.

 

If you want strong archery while leaving melee relevant, give them ability to shoot twice as a complex action as long as they remain stationary. It's what I did to Wasp Archers, too.

I do not understand what you mean: last time I checked their technique the Tsuruchi archers get SA with bows even if they move.

 

 

I would also suggest trying something like "Dojo-Advantages" if you want more diverse clans. In our experience, it works better than bloating techniques; we are currently playing with only core schools and minimal alternate paths, but with each character having ability to skill related perks that are mutually activatable (a "conditional, switchable technique" slot, so to speak). 

 

That's pretty interesting! Dojo Advantages!

I have did some of my own homebrew Dojo Advantages but I have not homebrewed all dojos from all clans (I've mainly done some Crane and Crab).

 

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/199086-rpg-combat-stances-kata-maneuvers-and-weapons/?p=2173800

 

Can you please share something? My own advantages are still in such a primitive status that I would like to know experiences by other people like you!

 

I have also "weapon focus" advantages, a modified (and expanded) version of the "signature weapon" what Kinzen put in her pdf on the Togashi dinasty.

 

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/237825-rpg-homebrew-weapon-focus-advantage/?p=2557754

 

 

 

EDIT EDIT
"It only works when you spend a Void Point!" is not as relevant for archers as for anyone else. Anyone else has to make a really hard choice of "what do I Void for this round", as Void tends to be the the straw that breaks the camels back (especially the +10 ATN one; during our last game, spamming that singlehandely saved our bushi when he was swarmed by angry wolf-spirits - about 40% more attacks would hit he didn't do that). Archers don't have that problem, as they won't be subject to multiple attacks, can't spend Void on damage anyway, and aren't that much penalized by not having Initiative; while in melee, this technique would have a serious opportunity cost, for archery there isn't really one. It's a no brainer decided by "is this even worth spending Void on", not "is this the best use of Void now".

Good point.

You are right. 

I'll think about it.

 

You just gave them ability to gain +2k1 on attack rolls without the usual cost (yeah, you get that -10 to ATN...but you are an archer, you won't be attacked as much as meleers) and gave them ability to SAA with bows. Basically, you made a technique that turns matsu into very angry gatling guns that shoot two +2k1 accuracy +7 dmg arrows per round. This is, remember, a school/family combo that starts with 4 strength; they are going to burst you with gigantic damage and then knockdown you into oblivion. And yes, +7 DMG makes them inherently better at knockdown, because 7 dmg is usually about a wound rank, and that equals to wound penalties, which means easier Knockdown.

 

As I said above Yumi in my games are Samurai weapons, so many Bushi schools give SA with bows.

Nothing special. It's pretty well diffused.

However the point is that Matsu do not get it, and Koritome archers are basically Matsu Archers which would not have SA with bows.

Thank you for the advice, I'll think about it but, as I said, the basic context of bow use in my games is different from the vanilla one.

Edited December 24, 2016 by LucaCherstich

[LucaCherstich 27]

I have tentatively added the possibility of making SA with a chosen weapon with my Weapon Focus advantage.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/237825-rpg-homebrew-weapon-focus-advantage/?p=2557754

 

In this way I can even avoid giving more bow attacks to Koritome and Meiki.

When I''ll get time I'll work again on the paths avoiding that problem.

 

In this way those paths coudl be balanced even for those who (unlike me) stick to the usual Samurai weapons. 

 

I'm also considering of rising the cost of the new SA attack option in the Weapon Focus above....but I'll think about it.

[WHW 1,815]

sorry for laconic reply im on mobile device.

What is the rason for your samurai to use melee? With so much power and mobility in ranged, there is seldom any reason practical to use melee.

[LucaCherstich 27]

It's not so extreme as you say.

 

I've never seen that powering up bows makes melee useless.

It's just a way of giving bows the place they had in real Samurai warfare before the Shogunate times.

 

Furthermore ranged weapon are not always practical (e.g. indoor or in crowded spaces). 

[AtoMaki 1,373]

What is the rason for your samurai to use melee? With so much power and mobility in ranged, there is seldom any reason practical to use melee.

 

Isn't there a kata (Brush the Arrow Aside) that lets you negate a ranged attack per turn? 

[LucaCherstich 27]

First of all...merry Christmas!

There was something i guess in old editions sourcebooks but I've homebrewed a Yadomejutsu kata For that...later on I'll paste it here.

[LucaCherstich 27]

 

What is the rason for your samurai to use melee? With so much power and mobility in ranged, there is seldom any reason practical to use melee.

 

Isn't there a kata (Brush the Arrow Aside) that lets you negate a ranged attack per turn? 

 

 

Maybe it's not what you were looking for but, some times ago, inspired by something I've seen somewhere I do not remember (maybe some old "Way of.." book?) I created the following.

I did a Kata and a Path.

The path, off course, gives more.

 

NEW KATA: Yadomejutsu

Ring/Mastery: Fire or Air 3.

Schools: Any

Effect:  When wielding a sword in your hand you can add your Kenjutsu Skill Rank to your Armor tn but only against arrows and similar missile weapons. Against small missiles (e.g. Shuriken) or larger missiles (e.g. spears) you add only 1 half (rounded down) of your Kenjutsu Skill Rank.

 

NEW PATH: Yadomejutsu Expert [bushi]

Cutting arrows in flight is a mighty feat but it is also an art which requests time and efforts to master.

There are also a few Yojimbo who are able to hit arrows directed at their charges with a single sword movement, a characteristic which makes them stand out from other warriors.

Similar techniques have been developed among the best kenjutsu schools of the empire, but warriors who totally dedicate themselves to Yadomejutsu remain rare. 

Technique Rank: 2 or 3

Replaces: Akodo Bushi 2, Kakita Bushi 2, Mirumoto Bushi 2, Suzume Bushi 3.

Requirements: Yadomejutsu Kata, Agility 3, Reflexes 3, Kenjutsu 4.

Technique: Cutting Arrows - Whenever you are hit by a missile attack and you have an unsheathed sword in your hand, you can immediately spend a Free Action, even if it is not your own turn, to make a Kenjutsu/Agility roll with a tn equal to the attack roll which has just hit you. A success means that you have intercepted the arrow with your blade and you will not suffer damage.

If you are performing a Guard Action you can do the same for your charge.

You can use this technique with a sheathed sword but only if you can draw it with a Free Action and you will suffer a forced Raise for no effect on the Kenjutsu/Agility roll.

This technique can be performed against larger missiles (e.g. thrown spears) or smaller missiles (e.g. Shuriken) but always suffering a forced Raise for no effect. 

This technique can be used a number of times per Round equal to your Bushi basic school Rank (including this path if it is your first path, as per normal L5R4 p.246)

In effects this technique is an exception to the “1 Free Action of the same type per round” usual rule.

Edited December 29, 2016 by LucaCherstich

[LucaCherstich 27]

On 21/12/2016 at 0:45 AM, WHW said:

 

You just gave them ability to gain +2k1 on attack rolls without the usual cost (yeah, you get that -10 to ATN...but you are an archer, you won't be attacked as much as meleers) and gave them ability to SAA with bows. Basically, you made a technique that turns matsu into very angry gatling guns that shoot two +2k1 accuracy +7 dmg arrows per round. This is, remember, a school/family combo that starts with 4 strength; they are going to burst you with gigantic damage and then knockdown you into oblivion. And yes, +7 DMG makes them inherently better at knockdown, because 7 dmg is usually about a wound rank, and that equals to wound penalties, which means easier Knockdown.

Regarding my Koritome path.

I think I've maybe to delete the SAA with bows part (overly powerful) but I'll just leave the "you can use bows while in Full Attack" and for at least 2 reasons:

1) Being an archer in a furious "Full attack mode" is, from a thematic point of view, very "Matsu-like". I simply love it.

2) in the L5R $th ed. Core Rules there is a condition in the FA stance as written in core rules: "...and may only use Move Actions to get closer to his enemies..." which means that, as long as you remain in FA, you cannot go away after you shot the bow. This means that A Koritome will furiously make his "Full Attack Bow attack" and wait until somebody charges him . He cannot run away if he wants to to the bonus in the round. And, again, that's OK. No run away, no compromise: a very "Matsu" approach to archery.

 

Edited January 28, 2017 by LucaCherstich

[LucaCherstich 27]

Ok That's my final change:

 

NEW BAYUSHI VASSAL FAMILY: Meiki family

Mon:  A scorpion resting over a bow

Information: When Shiro no Uragiru became Kyuden Ashinagabachi more than a few Scorpions felt the need for revenge. The voice of the general Bayushi Meiki was particularly influential in this group and for decades his followers plotted revenge against the Wasp. Such revengeful feelings were also focused on the Mantis, as they included the Wasp. With time it was increasingly clear that Shiro no Uragiru would have never came back under Scorpion rule and the Castle of the Fortunate Husband was created in the Nezuban Province, bordering the Tsuruchi lands.

The traditionalists wanting revenge on the Tsuruchi became less numerous but they existed anyway, even if reduced in number. In order not to lose such focused warriors the Bayushi lords decided to create a vassal family, the Meiki, with the task of guarding this castle, nominally to protect the road to Hotei Seido.

Everybody knows that the Meiki's forces are not adequate to face the Tsuruchi and start a war with the Mantis, nevertheless the Meiki take their duty with passion, defending the area from bandits. They developed a special skill with bows, developing a technique based on one of the Scorpion strengths: Stealth and Ambushes. The Meiki secretly hope for the day when their revenge will come. More than a few generations of Meiki have passed away waiting for that day, but their hope never fade away. Even so, they remain faithful to their vow to the Bayushi, waiting for their Bayushi lords'order before starting any hostility.

Common Schools: Bayushi Bushi with the new path "Meiki Archer".

Trait: +1 Reflexes

Common Skills: Kyujutsu, Craft: Bows.

Special: They can buy the "Heart of vengeance: Mantis" (or Wasp according to the era) for only 4 points instead of 5.

 

 

NEW PATH: Meiki Archer [bushi]

Archers from the Meiki family are specialists in ranged attacks during ambushes. Their arrows may not be as accurate as the Tsuruchi's ones but a Meiki knows how to exploit an opportunity to shot when it comes.

Technique Rank: 2

Replaces: Bayushi Bushi 2

Requirements: Kyujutsu 3, Stealth 3

Technique:  A sting from the darkness — When you make an attack with Bow during an ambush or against a target who is unaware of you, you can add your Stealth Rank to your first attack and damage roll.

[TheHobgoblyn 196]

To be honest, doesn't it feel a bit weird to introduce a whole new vassal family and an alternate school technique available only to Scorpions just to simply allow the concept of "Scorpions can use bows too".

I mean, shouldn't all clans have people who are good archers? Surely they don't all exclusive vassal families that exist solely so that they can use bows.

I kind of feel like there ought to be some sort of generic "archer" school that can represent numerous archery schools found in all clans across the empire that all effectively teach archery techniques that are mechanically identical to one another even if the philosophies and training styles are slightly different, they are different in ways that wouldn't affect the dice rolls.

 

Just having a pool of "generic military role bushi" and "generic social job courtier" schools would far more cleanly solve the problem of "but I want to play a clan X who can do Y" so much more cleaner than coming up with a very flimsily written vassal family and a special unique school or technique for them that is required to be 100% uniquely different from every other technique in the game.

You spent more than a month on this and it isn't bad, its just... well... it only solves this problem for a single clan. So now when someone wants to play a Hiruma Wall Archer... or a Daidoji Ambusher... or a Unicorn Horse Archer... or an Ikoma Hunter.... Well, you are going to have to go through all this again instead of having a singular solution that solves them all fairly neatly.

[WHW 1,815]

It's a flaw of 5 Technique School system. If you want everyone to have a shot at having special abilities that aren't tied to your school, you could:
a) power up Skill Masteries and turn them into small techniques of their own
b) create Perks/Small Techniques that can be acquired by filling certain requirements, and can be switched out and in during daily training; this allows introduction of relatively powerful abilities that can be learned aside of techniques, but prevents them from bloating the game, because while you could learn all 10000 ways of the bow, you can only pick 2 or 3 of them as your current abilities. I like to limit how many of these you can sustain by Intelligence.

 

 

[LucaCherstich 27]

11 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

You spent more than a month on this and it isn't bad, its just... well... 

Wel...I actualy forgotten about it for  month, just to remember it a couple of days ago!

By the way, I feel that the whole problem is that they chose to allow customization only through the "alternate path" way.

On the one hand the "Path" system represent the rigid Rokugani training mentality ("this is how tradition works") but on the other hand we got a pretty overly limited system since you have to be of THAT Rank and of THAT school.

I feel that we should not discard the "alternate path" way but we need to properly expand a couple of existing (but often forgotten) mechanics  which are good to customization, the Advantages and the Kata, in order to create different levels of customization.

An alternate path could mean a specific-technique of a selected group but one can add specific advantages to represent personal preferences, selected training or just customization.

10 hours ago, WHW said:

It's a flaw of 5 Technique School system. If you want everyone to have a shot at having special abilities that aren't tied to your school, you could:
a) power up Skill Masteries and turn them into small techniques of their own

I tried to go that way, but at some point the Master Abilities tended to be too many.

10 hours ago, WHW said:

b) create Perks/Small Techniques that can be acquired by filling certain requirements, and can be switched out and in during daily training; this allows introduction of relatively powerful abilities that can be learned aside of techniques, but prevents them from bloating the game, because while you could learn all 10000 ways of the bow, you can only pick 2 or 3 of them as your current abilities. I like to limit how many of these you can sustain by Intelligence.

That's an interesting approach, although it adds a further mechanic.

Speaking just for myself, as I said above, when I want to allow customization, I tend to create new advantages and Kata, and I created many of those...sooner or later I'll put somewhere a pdf with a collection of them.

Edited February 3, 2017 by LucaCherstich