How do you deal with Move: disarm?

[SEApocalypse 4,443]

Two cents: Minions don't get opposed checks against the force unless it's in the power description. They're minions, and the opposed roll rules only specify PCs and Nemesis NPCs, occasionally important named Rivals.

Also the auto fire rules are for using multiple objects to make an attack, which disarming them is not. If they have the necessary Control upgrade and Magnitude and enough points to activate them, and are in the correct range, they should succeed

 

Disarming itself is not in the force powers description and the power itself speaks from slow movement and the ability to pull something out of secure mountings not someone's hands. You might argue here that the resilience check is not for resisting the force power, but instead for keeping hold to the weapon itself, Which means that there is no opposed check, but instead two separated, not directly related checks. The minions simply can still shoot if their check is successful while getting slowly pulled in whatever direction the force user wants. 

 

But now we are into GM interpretation and rules lawyering territory. 

 

Though I must admit that order has some appeal as it selfs the issue of assigning two different difficulties, etc  … and on a failed check it allows even to run/jump  after your floating gun, and still shoot with it while running next turn …

[Monarchic 0]

 

An opportunity for further adaptation on behalf of the enemies- If they(your player) pull the guns towards themselves, narrate one of them(the blasters) showing signs of instability, the stormtroopers(or whoever they're pulling these guns away from) had rigged one of their guns to explode. Of course, if they bother to pay close attention to the enemy's equipment prior to the battle, they could pinpoint that instability prior to engaging and take advantage of it.

Naw, do it as an explosive type of gene-lock. The Sergeants have gotten tired of people stealing weapons from downed troopers, so they rig theirs with gene-locks that will cause the weapons to effectively turn into Thermal Detonators if they are moved more than Short distance away from them.

 

 

Equivalent to a thermal detonator is a little bit excessive, but yeah, that's actually a great improvement on my original idea. It'd also create some conflict and drama within the party, perhaps your other party members will start suggesting "Maybe you should do something else!", getting him out of his little niche in an organic and non-invasive manner.

[bradknowles 4,449]

Two cents: Minions don't get opposed checks against the force unless it's in the power description. They're minions, and the opposed roll rules only specify PCs and Nemesis NPCs, occasionally important named Rivals.

Also the auto fire rules are for using multiple objects to make an attack, which disarming them is not. If they have the necessary Control upgrade and Magnitude and enough points to activate them, and are in the correct range, they should succeed

I might agree with you if the player in question isn’t abusing the Force power.

But if the player is abusing the Force power and detracting from the fun that everyone else is having in the game, then I’m going to start throwing more and more consequences at them — like Force powers being used on living/conscious unwilling targets are automatically opposed.

[bradknowles 4,449]

Equivalent to a thermal detonator is a little bit excessive, but yeah, that's actually a great improvement on my original idea. It'd also create some conflict and drama within the party, perhaps your other party members will start suggesting "Maybe you should do something else!", getting him out of his little niche in an organic and non-invasive manner.

Hmm. Maybe they’re not the equivalent of Thermal Detonators. Maybe they’re the equivalent of Stun Grenades, or Glop Grenades.

Boy, it sure would be nasty to pull one of those into the middle of your group and then have it go off and disable some of the other PCs you’re standing next to. I wonder what they’d do to you when everybody wakes up and they’re locked in the same jail cell?

[Revanchist7 459]

Two cents: Minions don't get opposed checks against the force unless it's in the power description. They're minions, and the opposed roll rules only specify PCs and Nemesis NPCs, occasionally important named Rivals.

Also the auto fire rules are for using multiple objects to make an attack, which disarming them is not. If they have the necessary Control upgrade and Magnitude and enough points to activate them, and are in the correct range, they should succeed

 

Disarming itself is not in the force powers description and the power itself speaks from slow movement and the ability to pull something out of secure mountings not someone's hands. You might argue here that the resilience check is not for resisting the force power, but instead for keeping hold to the weapon itself, Which means that there is no opposed check, but instead two separated, not directly related checks. The minions simply can still shoot if their check is successful while getting slowly pulled in whatever direction the force user wants. 

 

But now we are into GM interpretation and rules lawyering territory. 

 

Though I must admit that order has some appeal as it selfs the issue of assigning two different difficulties, etc  … and on a failed check it allows even to run/jump  after your floating gun, and still shoot with it while running next turn …

Disarming is actually specifically mentioned, out of an opponents grasps.

[FuriousGreg 1,667]

 

Disarming is actually specifically mentioned, out of an opponents grasps.

 

Could you please give us the book and page? I couldn't find much on it myself, though the word Disarm is relatively clear

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

 

 

Disarming is actually specifically mentioned, out of an opponents grasps.

 

Could you please give us the book and page? I couldn't find much on it myself, though the word Disarm is relatively clear

 

F&D p 298, second to last Control upgrade:

 

Force User can pull objects out of secure mountings or out of an opponent's grasp.

[Aetrion 441]

Pull objects out of an opponents grasp is wonderfully vague, as Move usually is, so my go to ruling for all vaguely written force powers is: When in doubt, treat it like a weapon power.  Disarming an opponent with a weapon that's capable of doing so or the Sum Djem maneuver takes 2 advantages or a triumph, so that's what you should need on your Discipline check to disarm an opponent. 

[SEApocalypse 4,443]

Pull objects out of an opponents grasp is wonderfully vague, as Move usually is, so my go to ruling for all vaguely written force powers is: When in doubt, treat it like a weapon power.  Disarming an opponent with a weapon that's capable of doing so or the Sum Djem maneuver takes 2 advantages or a triumph, so that's what you should need on your Discipline check to disarm an opponent. 

 

On a regular combat check it takes iirc 3 advantages. Sun Djem is basically the improved version over a regular combat check disarm. 

[Aetrion 441]

Hm, you are correct, any weapon can cause disarm at 3 advantages, some special ones and trained characters can do it at 2. I think it's alright to count Move as specialized in disarming after the control upgrade.

[Richardbuxton 7,319]

Hm, you are correct, any weapon can cause disarm at 3 advantages, some special ones and trained characters can do it at 2. I think it's alright to count Move as specialized in disarming after the control upgrade.

Yes it's very special, 7/12ths of the time you get to flip a DP, suffer 1 Strain and 1 Conflict to do what others only need 2-3 Advantage to do. Then if your kind friends choose to gun down those disarmed foes you get even more Conflict, wonderful.

For that incredible detriment you get to do so without having to rely on your skill, it's pure Force use... unless of course the GM decides that NPC is actually important.

(Slightly sarcastic, in a joking way)

[SEApocalypse 4,443]

 

Hm, you are correct, any weapon can cause disarm at 3 advantages, some special ones and trained characters can do it at 2. I think it's alright to count Move as specialized in disarming after the control upgrade.

Yes it's very special, 7/12ths of the time you get to flip a DP, suffer 1 Strain and 1 Conflict to do what others only need 2-3 Advantage to do. Then if your kind friends choose to gun down those disarmed foes you get even more Conflict, wonderful.

For that incredible detriment you get to do so without having to rely on your skill, it's pure Force use... unless of course the GM decides that NPC is actually important.

(Slightly sarcastic, in a joking way)

 

 

One the plus side you can do it 12 times in one turn if you roll 24 advantages ;-)

[ApocalypseZero 224]

First to the OP's situation:

 

Having a player like this can be tiresome and lead to boredom. I had one that used Harm (darksider), and I had no issues in letting the player know that while combat may be great for him, he will be bored in everything else, and combat will not be the focus of the game. In the end, the group killed him because he was becoming "too sociopathic". But Move and Disarm is very light side a thing to do. As others have suggested, if anyone guns down the unarmed/hapless victims, that's accessory to murder on the conflict chart (5+ Conflict per kill). So, what then? He now has to work with his group to not kill opponents. But wait, what do you do with all these unarmed opponents? Stun them/Knock Out? Tie them up? Take them prisoner? All that takes time and effort the group may not afford. Use this. If any of them are alive and return to the Empire, that's an excuse to introduce an Inquisitor. With a detailed briefing, the Inquisitor will know of the disarm trick and will come prepared. (Suppression and Resist Disarm). Or you could introduce opponents with integrated weapons, like Droids or Gadgeteers. Or you take the focus away from combat and apply it elsewhere. Intrigue, Political, Stealth, a whole range of other things to venture towards. 

 

 

On the Rules side of things:

 

Why are we complicating something so simple? I keep reading about multiple rolls for one action, imposing ranged combat rules, etc. At most, use the opposed roll per the side bar and go with it. This works for Nemesis, Rivals, and Minions. If you are having an issue with Minions, then use something other than Minions. They are Minions. They shouldn't be a roadblock, but a stepping stone. 

[Aetrion 441]

On the Rules side of things:

 

Why are we complicating something so simple? I keep reading about multiple rolls for one action, imposing ranged combat rules, etc. At most, use the opposed roll per the side bar and go with it. This works for Nemesis, Rivals, and Minions. If you are having an issue with Minions, then use something other than Minions. They are Minions. They shouldn't be a roadblock, but a stepping stone. 

 

Minions in large numbers are supposed to be a threat, which is why treating magnitude as simply hitting 4 more people for every pip you spend gets out of hand very quickly. Once you have enough upgrades activated to take down one minion, which usually isn't all that much, you're basically spending 1 pip to kill a whole additional minion group, which is well beyond what even the most modded autofire weapon does, and kind of makes the Last Man Standing signature ability, which is a once per session pointless unless the GM frequently throws literally hundreds of minions at you.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Aetrion

[ApocalypseZero 224]

 

On the Rules side of things:

 

Why are we complicating something so simple? I keep reading about multiple rolls for one action, imposing ranged combat rules, etc. At most, use the opposed roll per the side bar and go with it. This works for Nemesis, Rivals, and Minions. If you are having an issue with Minions, then use something other than Minions. They are Minions. They shouldn't be a roadblock, but a stepping stone. 

 

Minions in large numbers are supposed to be a threat, which is why treating magnitude as simply hitting 4 more people for every pip you spend gets out of hand very quickly. Once you have enough upgrades activated to take down one minion, which usually isn't all that much, you're basically spending 1 pip to kill a whole additional minion group, which is well beyond what even the most modded autofire weapon does, and kind of makes the Last Man Standing signature ability, which is a once per session pointless unless the GM frequently throws literally hundreds of minions at you.

 

 

That's what minions are for: Dying. Again, they are a stepping stone, not a road block. And a way to negate the issue: Break up your groups. 5 Stormtroopers is plenty large. If you're minion groups are pushing above 10, you should be looking at Mass Combat rules instead. Hell, an minions that need to be pushed to 10+ should be like Bees, painful due to numbers, but easy to dispatch. Use Minions with Rivals or Nemesis. Minions should support larger NPC's. The action of fighting a Minion group (i.e. committing assault, etc.) should be harsher than actually fighting the minions. Conflict, Obligation, Adventure issues, etc. I'd have my Crime Bosses shun players who create problems in their operating areas. Crime Lords don't want to deal with heat or have to pay them off. Bad business. 

 

Not to mention, on a rules front, if you break that out of minions and attack Rivals or Nemesis like that, your example only disarms four. Very reasonable. Especially with Opposing Rolls required. (Not to mention the cost of XP to be able to do the things.)

Edited December 21, 2016 by ApocalypseZero

[Aetrion 441]

Breaking them up into groups doesn't stop magnitude ranks from just affecting more of them though, that's the thing.  If you want to hit two groups of minions with an autofire weapon you have to increase the difficulty of the check, pay for every shot you need to kill the first group in advantages, then keep paying to start hitting the second group.

 

I prefer to treat magnitude like it's autofire or blast because it makes no sense that just because your power can affect multiple people you automatically gain the ability to perfectly aim at multiple people, just like just because you weapon fires a lot of shots doesn't mean all of them hit someone.

 

I think the game makes a lot more sense that way. It's not like minions have obscenely difficult to beat discipline ratings or whatever you roll against. Usually it's against 1-3 purples like any other basic attack roll. Allowing an attack roll that can add damage and cause all the other advantage effects of attacks more than makes up for not being able to just pile on magnitudes like sucking five people's life energy out is only marginally more difficult than one. 

Edited December 21, 2016 by Aetrion

[Revanchist7 459]

Ultimately it's what works best for the GM and their group. But getting real good at Move and having a high FR is an xp-sink

[Richardbuxton 7,319]

Disarming an opponent is not the same as killing an opponent.

[Aetrion 441]

Disarming an opponent is not the same as killing an opponent.

 

It's harder to disarm a minion than to kill a minion generally. The rules of the game do tend to be written in such a way that it takes more effort to use non-lethal means to neutralize an enemy than to simply kill them.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Aetrion

[Richardbuxton 7,319]

Yes, and in the case of Move 7/12 times it is a higher than normal Strain cost and a Destiny Point .

The entire premise of The Force is that it's easy to use, but it's hard to control yourself with such easy power. Move exemplifies this more than almost any other power.

Anyway it's become a circular conversation long after we have all agreed that each table uses different variations to suit their own needs.

[ApocalypseZero 224]

Breaking them up into groups doesn't stop magnitude ranks from just affecting more of them though, that's the thing.  If you want to hit two groups of minions with an autofire weapon you have to increase the difficulty of the check, pay for every shot you need to kill the first group in advantages, then keep paying to start hitting the second group.

 

I prefer to treat magnitude like it's autofire or blast because it makes no sense that just because your power can affect multiple people you automatically gain the ability to perfectly aim at multiple people, just like just because you weapon fires a lot of shots doesn't mean all of them hit someone.

 

I think the game makes a lot more sense that way. It's not like minions have obscenely difficult to beat discipline ratings or whatever you roll against. Usually it's against 1-3 purples like any other basic attack roll. Allowing an attack roll that can add damage and cause all the other advantage effects of attacks more than makes up for not being able to just pile on magnitudes like sucking five people's life energy out is only marginally more difficult than one. 

 

But what is not taken into account is how one gets to these levels. Autofire, Blast, and other Qualities are innate to a weapon and to the rules themselves. The 3 Advantage cost to disarm with any weapon is a part of the rules. It takes no cost from the player other than credits to obtain the ability to use these qualities.

 

As for a Force Power, one has to sink a lot of xp to get to a point where they can optimally power them in such a way. They have to have enough Force Rating to generate the pips (which at minimum is powering down 1 Talent tree to the two Rating increase, so about 100xp roughly), then paying for the power and all the upgrades to be effective at the disarm (another 50xp?, don't have books), and then they have to roll the Pips, succeed on the Opposing Roll, and possibly suffer Stain and a Destiny Point flip. This is a cost other combatants don't pay.

 

As for rules: we should all be aware and running the same rules. If you ever get into a situation where you are not at your table, and the rules run counter to how you run it, things can be disastrous. I used to run Con Games for Rifts (a games where the basic rules for the system can be spread out across the various game lines), and having 10 players show up to play all with a different mindset of how the rules work does not work. This system operates different than traditional RPG's and much of the confusion comes from running this system like a traditional RPG.

[FuriousGreg 1,667]

 

Pull objects out of an opponents grasp is wonderfully vague, as Move usually is, so my go to ruling for all vaguely written force powers is: When in doubt, treat it like a weapon power.  Disarming an opponent with a weapon that's capable of doing so or the Sum Djem maneuver takes 2 advantages or a triumph, so that's what you should need on your Discipline check to disarm an opponent. 

 

On a regular combat check it takes iirc 3 advantages. Sun Djem is basically the improved version over a regular combat check disarm. 

 

 

 

Hm, you are correct, any weapon can cause disarm at 3 advantages, some special ones and trained characters can do it at 2. I think it's alright to count Move as specialized in disarming after the control upgrade.

The end result may be similar but spending Advantages, Threats etc. does not disarm an opponent it causes them to drop a weapon or other object for any reason. It could mean you unintentionally knocked it out of their hand or they fumbled it themselves. Disarm on the other hand is a deliberate strike at the weapon.

Edited December 22, 2016 by FuriousGreg

[Aetrion 441]

The result is mechanically the same as far as I see it. Disarm makes them drop their weapon. If you're engaged with them you can immediately take a move to pick the weapon up (or catch it out of the air for style points) or kick it across the room or otherwise put it out of reach. 

Edited December 22, 2016 by Aetrion

[SEApocalypse 4,443]

 

 

Pull objects out of an opponents grasp is wonderfully vague, as Move usually is, so my go to ruling for all vaguely written force powers is: When in doubt, treat it like a weapon power.  Disarming an opponent with a weapon that's capable of doing so or the Sum Djem maneuver takes 2 advantages or a triumph, so that's what you should need on your Discipline check to disarm an opponent. 

 

On a regular combat check it takes iirc 3 advantages. Sun Djem is basically the improved version over a regular combat check disarm. 

 

 

 

Hm, you are correct, any weapon can cause disarm at 3 advantages, some special ones and trained characters can do it at 2. I think it's alright to count Move as specialized in disarming after the control upgrade.

The end result may be similar but spending Advantages, Threats etc. does not disarm an opponent it causes them to drop a weapon or other object for any reason. It could mean you unintentionally knocked it out of their hand or they fumbled it themselves. Disarm on the other hand is a deliberate strike at the weapon.

 

 

If you want to go that technical than it is just using the aim maneuver and go for the weapon or arm. Personally disabling the arm which holds the weapon is the more effective disarm, as grabbing a side-weapon becomes a lot harder that way. Just two setback dice iirc. ;-)

[FuriousGreg 1,667]

The result is mechanically the same as far as I see it. Disarm makes them drop their weapon. If you're engaged with them you can immediately take a move to pick the weapon up (or catch it out of the air for style points) or kick it across the room or otherwise put it out of reach. 

Not really. A disarm is deliberate and how it's caused is important. If it was in H-T-H then it could be dropped (Engaged Range) or taken or even knocked away. If you are pulling or knocking it out of someone's hand at a distance with the force it's more likely to not just drop at their feet but instead be flung away somewhere in Short Range.