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John Constantine

Card Tokens Prototype: Need Opinions

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I really like what you are trying to do with the craftmen. Token cards really fit their theme, although I would like for them to trigger from something else than the character just entering the game, as that doesn't scream "craftmanship" to me.

 

I'm not sure about the rules either. Tokens in other games use to come in play to avoid extra complications. I understand that you want to give some additional layer of complexity, but maybe it could be done differently? Also, like others have pointed out, you could end up with the 6 tokens in your hand with some enter play shennanigans in one round, so I don't know if a limit should be included.

 

My options would be something like this (note that I changed the "token" tag to a "crafted" tag to avoid confusing them to the progress tokens I suggest using, but that's up to you):

 

The Rules:

Crafted cards are not part of your deck. Instead they are placed off to the side (crafting deck?). A token works just like a regular card except that if it ever leaves play it's removed from the game instead (or goes back to the sideboard/crafting deck). 

 

 

OPTION A

 

New keyword
 
Craftmanship (X). When this character enters play (from your hand?), put X progress tokens on them.
 
Hard-working Craftman
 
Craftmanship (4)
 
Action: Remove 1 progress token from Hard-working Craftman to choose one: attach a Steelforged Blade crafted attachment to a character, or attach a Well-crafted Shield crafted attachment to a character. (Limit once per round/phase, if needed to prevent abuse)
 
Aspiring Alchemist
 
Craftmanship (3)
 
Action: Remove 1 progress token from Aspiring Alchemist to play a Rejuvenating Brew crafted event from your crafting area as if it were in your hand. (Limit once per round/phase, if needed to prevent abuse)

 

You can then play with different triggered conditions. Some powerful tokens can require extra costs like exhausting the craftmen, or could require some triggering condition first (make them responses then) ala "Response: After Nonamed Craftman attacks and destroys an enemy, remove X progress tokens to put X number of crafted attachments/allies/sidequests into play." or "Response: After No-named Craftman commits to the quest, remove 1 progress token to play a Crafted trap attachment on the active location".

You can also limit the number of tokens that enter play each round buy putting a limit on the actions to keep them balanced.

OPTION B

Gain progress tokens activelly.

 

Hard-working Craftman
 
Response: After Hard-working Craftman commits to the quest/attacks/defends/enters play from your hand, put 1 progress token on him.
 
Action: Remove 1 progress token from Hard-working Craftman to choose one: attach a Steelforged Blade crafted attachment to a character, or attach a Well-crafted Shield crafted attachment to a character. (Limit once per round/phase, if needed to prevent abuse)
 
Aspiring Alchemist
 
Response: After Aspiring Alchemist commits to the quest/attacks/defends/enters play from your hand, put 1 progress token on her.
 
Action: Remove 1 progress token from Aspiring Alchemist to play a Rejuvenating Brew crafted event from your crafting area as if it were in your hand. (Limit once per round/phase, if needed to prevent abuse)

This option can be more flexible as you can decide when and how your craftmen get their tokens, but the text can become more cumbersome.


Either way, I'm looking forward to whatever this ends up.
Edited by xchan

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I like the concept - specifically building on the mechanics of Ranger of the North.  

 

I don't think that splintering the card base too much is the best way to do this however.  I actually think Ranger of the North would be more effective if there were multiple versions (as previously mentioned).  This is the same effect we see with character-specific attachments: Vilya ONLY works with Elrond, etc.  It severely reduces the ability for players to utilize the precious few cards produced in each cycle.  And the special case rules make them difficult to work with and interact with other cards.

 

Perhaps a more general approach would be better?  Like creating a specific class of sideboard cards - like your "token" cards - which can be drawn into play by other cards, but otherwise obey the other rules of the game.  However, what I'd propose is perhaps NOT requiring an actual sideboard, but simply allowing players to draw the card in from their collection.  This would provide the ability to dynamically react to a scenario without having to build those cards into your deck beforehand.  As a balance, these cards would probably need a steeper cost curve to offset their adaptability and accommodate an expandable pool of such cards.  It would not be wise to balance them in such a way as to encourage most decks to use them for each scenario.  But a dynamic, adaptable class of cards might be sustainable within the game.  I haven't thought through the details though.

 

For example:  

 

A dwarf ally 

0/1/0/2  2 cost

 

Spend 2 resources to add a token weapon or armor attachment to your hand. Limit once per round.

 

Get the attachment from anywhere out of the game.  Add it to your hand.  Once in hand, it acts just like any other card and its cost must be paid to put it into play.  This is a limited example, but hopefully it gets the idea across.  It could also be cards added to the encounter deck or put directly into play, etc.

 

Feel free to disagree.

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dr00, Lindir case sounds perfectly fine to me, because, if we take currently presented tokens, a hand full of +1atk/def attachments and 0 costs heal 1 events is not that much of a hand to begin with. Old Bogey stories are simple: You shuffle all of your non-token cards into your deck and draw 6 cards.

my point is that you need to add new rules for these possible future scenarios, adding further complexity to the token rules

 

No, adding cards to hand - of anything, that is not overly complicated.

i never said it was. did you even read my post?

 

I bring up Dunland as a main offender, there are plenty of hand-discarding stuff to go around in many different quests.

this doesn't really do anything to comment on the actual point i was making

 

Why not make ally that discards itself fof heal? How is it remotely the same as having an event that healds separately from the ally that brought it to life? That ally might be gone by the time you trigger that event. That ally can do various things after you trigger that event. That ally doesn't needs to be in play when you trigger it. The list goes on.

i don't think you understand my point, but at this point in my reply, i'm starting to think that you're choosing not to

 

Yes, I considered that option. There are honestly plenty of more powerful things to do with the Dwarve tomb than bringing a Blacksmith back and forth for those little attachments :D

and yet you did not answer my question

 

I don't agree on your thematic point. Blacksmith is not an outfitter. Giving you a weapon or armor piece that you can then attach to anybody who seems fit is more thematic in my book for a craftsman than instatntly equipping it as soon as it pops.

lol i'm so done. have a good day, sir.

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lol i'm so done. have a good day, sir.

I am currently sick, so pardon me if I interpret incorrectly anything you say. But you are done anyway, so no biggie.

 

I'll get to responding to the several other posts above when I have time and clear enough head.

Edited by John Constantine

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I dig the idea of tokens. Could have really made Fili/Kili easier to use, for example.

 

But there's a reason other games that use tokens like this just add them to play directly. They look like cards, they usually physically are cards, but it's confusing to have them not behave like cards when doing card things. Like sitting in your hand.

 

Why not just have the tokens come into play in exchange for a bit of extra cost on the ally? Rejuvenating Brew could be a token attachment on the Aspiring Alchemist you have to discard to activate. And if you're worried about paying for everything at once if you want an effect with lots of tokens, you can give a discount. Gathering a bunch of resources in LOTR is more annoying than other games, so very expensive cards should generally be more powerful per resource than cheap ones.

 

Or why not just let them behave like cards? There are already cards that really gas up the Noldor archetype, and those fill your hands with better cards than these tokens. (They draw from your deck...)

 

Basically: I like the idea, but I don't see why it needs to have more rules attached to it

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dr00, Lindir case sounds perfectly fine to me, because, if we take currently presented tokens, a hand full of +1atk/def attachments and 0 costs heal 1 events is not that much of a hand to begin with. Old Bogey stories are simple: You shuffle all of your non-token cards into your deck and draw 6 cards.

my point is that you need to add new rules for these possible future scenarios, adding further complexity to the token rules

 

No, adding cards to hand - of anything, that is not overly complicated.

i never said it was. did you even read my post?

 

I bring up Dunland as a main offender, there are plenty of hand-discarding stuff to go around in many different quests.

this doesn't really do anything to comment on the actual point i was making

 

Why not make ally that discards itself fof heal? How is it remotely the same as having an event that healds separately from the ally that brought it to life? That ally might be gone by the time you trigger that event. That ally can do various things after you trigger that event. That ally doesn't needs to be in play when you trigger it. The list goes on.

i don't think you understand my point, but at this point in my reply, i'm starting to think that you're choosing not to

 

Yes, I considered that option. There are honestly plenty of more powerful things to do with the Dwarve tomb than bringing a Blacksmith back and forth for those little attachments :D

and yet you did not answer my question

 

I don't agree on your thematic point. Blacksmith is not an outfitter. Giving you a weapon or armor piece that you can then attach to anybody who seems fit is more thematic in my book for a craftsman than instatntly equipping it as soon as it pops.

lol i'm so done. have a good day, sir.

 

 

Ok, dr00, today I took my time to re-read your post, my repsponse to it, and your response to my response, and I find most of my answers to be on point or at least around it, so I den't get what are you getting so offended about. 

 

1. Those scenarios are not future, they are present, and I believe my current ruling covers most of them, if not all of them. The only problem I can see being risen from this is the case when a player is not supposed to have anything in his hand, or when all cards with a specific trait are supposed to get pulled from hand, but none of there any longer matters because everybody seems to be willing to sacrifice potential balance issues for the sake of less complicated rules. I down with it.

 

2. Yes, I did. Or do you think I googled random sentences and responded to them, while pretending I'm responding to your post?

 

3. If I am not mistaken, your point there was that "some archetypes are strong against something but weak against something else", which I responded to with "it's not all about archetypes, because cards being discarded from hand is something common, while flooding your hand with tokens is a direct counter to that common thing (the more useless **** you have in your hand - the more is the chance it'll get discarded instead of something you actually care about).

 

4. So what exactly I did not understand in your post about ally discarding for heal?

"why not just make an ally that can be discard for the potion effect?

i don't see a reason, but if there were a choice in events, that would help."

This question/statement makes little other sense to me than the one I responded with. 

 

5. I did. The answer was: I don't care. If a person is willing to waste a valuable Dwarven Tomb to replicate a +1 atk attachment - it's his funeral. Sheet, he can go further and use Map of Earnil to make it 9, I wonder where he'll be sticking all those blades and shields.

 

6. Yes, a thematic disagreement is a thing to be done about, sure. Have a nice one.

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xchan, I appreciate the effort, but I did not intend the player card tokens to be a craftsman-specific endavor, I just used them to present it. 

 

About your idea, funny thing, in one of my earlier installments of this Esgaroth expansion, craftsmen used to have Craft X (or something) keyword, which gave the allies permission to hold resources, which can only be used to trigger/pay for stuff printed in their text boxes. I ultimately scrapped that keyword because of the tideousness.

 

 

Distractionbeast, well, as this is purely fan project which will be used (by me) in some digital (OCTGN) simmulator, production value is out of the table :D

Take note, however, that the way I have it in mind, several different player cards might interact with the same token.

 

I'm not sure how user-friendly would be drawing a card from your collection, however. I like the idea of a side-board because when you put a card that creates Rejuvenating Brew tokens, you add respective Rejuvenating Brew tokens to your side board for the time that you need them.

 

 

chrsjxn, yeah. The Kili might as well be a token :D

 

I've seen plenty of games adding tokens to player's hand. And there is always a scenario when a tokens get returned to your hand. 

 

Long story short: I don't like being limited to just directly adding tokens into play. I'll just drop the extra rules.

 

 

 

And just disclaimer (probably too late, eh): I'm not against the player card tokens entering play directly, in fact I got plenty of cards doing it already, I just want to have player tokens that go to the hand too, and people seems to find the best solution is for them to not go into hand.

Edited by John Constantine

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I'm not sure how user-friendly would be drawing a card from your collection, however. I like the idea of a side-board because when you put a card that creates Rejuvenating Brew tokens, you add respective Rejuvenating Brew tokens to your side board for the time that you need them.

 

 

Interesting idea.  So the idea is potentially to have a smaller number of sideboard cards and larger number of cards that interact with them?  Still not sure if I'm a fan of the extra complexity this adds to the game, but it's an interesting idea to explore.

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