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Rogue One Discussion Thread

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I like TPM for the visual aspect, the manipulations of Palpatine, the general ambiance of a hidden threat underlying a 'happy' adventure, and many specific scenes and characters. I also like the symbiosis theme.

But no matter now good or bad the rest of the movie is, little Ani and Jar Jar are more than bad enough to ruin it all.

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I watch all the movies at least once or twice a year. So I don't need to reevaluate anything I know that I enjoy them all. TFA might be my least favorite, and possibly the only one I like but not love. But as I said I can still enjoy it.

If you're a fan who doesn't like the prequels, fine that's your opinion.

If you want to complain online about how much you don't like them, go ahead.

But stop making those who like all the movies including the prequels feel like they are lesser fans. Or that you need to convince then that their opinions are wrong.

I just don't understand what metric someone can possibly use that puts TFA behind the prequels. And indeed, puts one of the prequels ahead of the original trilogy. What standard can you be holding the films to where III is the best, and TPM comes before ESB or RotJ?

TPM before ESB? What? Jar Jar Binks and "Let's try spinning!" over the assault on Hoth or "I am your father"?

I don't want to convince you you're wrong or a lesser fan, I'm just utterly baffled how we can watch the same movies and rank them so differently.

Enjoyment over quality. I won't dispute TFA is a better made film then any of the prequels, but for various reason I don't enjoy it. I can still enjoy the prequels while acknowledging they are bad movies. Surely there are bad movies you've seen that you know are bad, but you still enjoy them while watching them. I agree I don't understand TPM over ESB or anything like that, but I can understand liking the prequels better then TFA.

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I was looking at Bell of Lost Souls earlier and people were discussing the idea of Warhammer 40K going the Age of Sigmar route.  Someone posted something along the lines of "why can't we just have some good new stories in the existing time line and universe, instead of all this change?"

 

And I kind of feel that way with Star Wars.  I kind of enjoyed the prequels when I first watched them, but I've never felt the need to watch them again.  They were so far removed from what the original Star Wars films were that they just didn't hold any lasting appeal for me.  The same is true for The Force Awakens.  I kind of enjoyed it watching it at the cinema, but I've never felt the need or desire to watch it again (and the more I think about the characters, plot and the story, the less I want to watch it again).

 

Rogue One, though.  Original Trilogy era film.  The Rebellion vs the Empire.  That's what I want to see more of - stories set in and around the original trilogy - not necessarily tying into the original trilogy as closely as Rogue One did, but featuring immediately identifiable characters, the classic vehicles and technology, the political situation and seeing the conflict from different perspectives and points of view.

 

I can honestly say Rogue One is the Star Wars film I've been waiting for since Return of the Jedi.

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I was looking at Bell of Lost Souls earlier and people were discussing the idea of Warhammer 40K going the Age of Sigmar route.  Someone posted something along the lines of "why can't we just have some good new stories in the existing time line and universe, instead of all this change?"

 

And I kind of feel that way with Star Wars.  I kind of enjoyed the prequels when I first watched them, but I've never felt the need to watch them again.  They were so far removed from what the original Star Wars films were that they just didn't hold any lasting appeal for me.  The same is true for The Force Awakens.  I kind of enjoyed it watching it at the cinema, but I've never felt the need or desire to watch it again (and the more I think about the characters, plot and the story, the less I want to watch it again).

 

Rogue One, though.  Original Trilogy era film.  The Rebellion vs the Empire.  That's what I want to see more of - stories set in and around the original trilogy - not necessarily tying into the original trilogy as closely as Rogue One did, but featuring immediately identifiable characters, the classic vehicles and technology, the political situation and seeing the conflict from different perspectives and points of view.

 

I can honestly say Rogue One is the Star Wars film I've been waiting for since Return of the Jedi.

I can understand this argument, but you should consider that it is very arbitrary in terms of where you draw the line; if one had walked into the cinema in 1980 expecting another Star Wars/A New Hope kind of movie, then TESB would have been a disappointment. RotJ is also different, it was certainly not another TESB. So in hindsight, it was unreasonable for fans to assume that Phantom Menace would be a fan pleaser as was Rogue One. Every new Star Wars episode has brought something new. In fact, they've all tried to alienate part of the fans to some degree.

 

Rogue One was so enjoyable for me because it tried its best to be cool and actually succeeded. At the same time, it contained what I see as an important homage to the first six parts of the saga. So it gave me the impression of a 'Thank You' note to fans - here's what you wanted without reservations and without any hurdles to overcome. The one critique I could level is that this is a very safe direction to go in, and I hope that this is not going to be the norm for things to come. But I definitely expect something different from ep. VIII, especially since in TFA all the proverbial masks were taken off.

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So in hindsight, it was unreasonable for fans to assume that Phantom Menace would be a fan pleaser as was Rogue One. Every new Star Wars episode has brought something new. In fact, they've all tried to alienate part of the fans to some degree

Whilst that may be true, this isn't art house cinema on a mission to challenge it's audience; Episode 1 came off the back of the 1997 re-releases of the original trilogy which started a big tidal wave of hype, then it left everyone thinking '...what?'. That's a mission failure IMO. It's also objectively quite a bad film.

Rogue One and TFA have acknowledged the nostalgia unashamedly and they aren't exactly treading new ground, but as a Star Wars fan I've found them immensely enjoyable.

I saw Rogue One for the second time yesterday and actually enjoyed it more. I could tune into the background a lot more and notice all the cool little details.

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I think what Gecko is saying (and I happen to agree) is that it's nice to have a return to the Galactic Civil War. The Empire vs the Rebel Alliance, not the Republic vs Separatists or the New Republic and the Resistance vs the First Order.

It's good to see original X-wings and Y-wings against classic TIE fighters again. Classic stormtroopers again, the Empire in all it's glory, and Vader as the fearsome villain we knew him as before Phantom Menace.

In other words, nostalgia.

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So in hindsight, it was unreasonable for fans to assume that Phantom Menace would be a fan pleaser as was Rogue One. Every new Star Wars episode has brought something new. In fact, they've all tried to alienate part of the fans to some degree

Whilst that may be true, this isn't art house cinema on a mission to challenge it's audience; Episode 1 came off the back of the 1997 re-releases of the original trilogy which started a big tidal wave of hype, then it left everyone thinking '...what?'. That's a mission failure IMO. It's also objectively quite a bad film.

Rogue One and TFA have acknowledged the nostalgia unashamedly and they aren't exactly treading new ground, but as a Star Wars fan I've found them immensely enjoyable.

I saw Rogue One for the second time yesterday and actually enjoyed it more. I could tune into the background a lot more and notice all the cool little details.

 

Ep. I may not be arthouse cinema, Lucas has repeatedly used his control over the films to import artistic quality into them. In that regard they are unlike most other blockbuster films.

 

The Phantom Menace is as much a bad movie as TESB. Most if not all objections I see are connected to unfulfilled expectations. If you ask me, no Star Wars film is really among the best films ever, Camille Paglia's passionate plea for RotS notwithstanding. They probably won't rank in my personal top 10, although I never made one.

 

This brings me to another point - why are prequel bashers so hung up on confirmation that the prequels are objectively awful? The best method of checking this falsifies it - RotS got the best critical reception at the viewings that were most unbiased. I don't see another way to quantify it. But do we really need that? Aren't you happy just to hate them with a passion? Must there be divine confirmation of an iron fact that Yes Mortals, These Were Not Good Films? I don't get it - nothing here is Kubrick, Zhang Yimou or Kurosawa material anyway. And at the same time, the attempts to retroactively paint Lucas as some kind of hack are both sadly funny and hilariously pitiful. He delivered lavish spectacles on the cutting edge of cinema every time, largely loved by their audiences even if you didn't like them all.

 

Much easier to just say "I didn't like this and this episode," and leave it at that. This constant jumping from "I did not like them" to "they were objectively awful" is getting stale. Grow out of it.

 

(And remember that it is okay to hate a film of high quality. Many dislike Gone With The Wind, but it was well made. I hate Dogville, but it's undeniably a quality film.)

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I think what Gecko is saying (and I happen to agree) is that it's nice to have a return to the Galactic Civil War. The Empire vs the Rebel Alliance, not the Republic vs Separatists or the New Republic and the Resistance vs the First Order.

It's good to see original X-wings and Y-wings against classic TIE fighters again. Classic stormtroopers again, the Empire in all it's glory, and Vader as the fearsome villain we knew him as before Phantom Menace.

In other words, nostalgia.

Nostalgia's part of it, certainly. But it's not solely nostalgia, it's the setting. There's so much to explore within the Rebellion era.

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<snip>

I consider myself to be grown up enough for now, thank you.

Disclosure; I did enjoy the prequels, particularly RotS. I even think they include some excellent nuggets of artistic direction and vision, however, the script is very poorly written and in many cases poorly acted.

The original films are hardly Shakespeare, but it doesn't detract from the overall experience as much because the tone of those films is quite different to what the prequels try to achieve. The original trilogy are basically 'high adventure' Buck Rodgers or Flash Gordon stories. As 'dark' as TESB gets, that's still apparent. The prequel trilogy was trying to tell a more personal story within a political story and that could have been more effectively executed with a better script, read better. This is simply about making it more of a fun way to spend a couple of hours and I who thinks sitting through Episode 1 is anything less than a bit of a chore.

Anyway, my point is that sequels and prequels by their nature seek to capitalise on the audience's expectations, so you cannot expect some people to not feel 'annoyed' after they went to see Ep 1; especially given the 'rabid' fandom that exists for the setting. To act like those detractors are just being unreasonable just comes across as sanctimonious. Now I'm not sure whether Lucas should actually be given a pat on the back for pushing ahead with his visions regardless. It shows how much pull he has as the creator.

Edited by Sbloom141

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The Phantom Menace is as much a bad movie as TESB.

Anakins awful dialogue.Stupid Roger Roger droids.Jar Jar Binks.'Nuff said.

The Phantom Menace is as much a bad movie as TESB.

Anakins awful dialogue.Stupid Roger Roger droids.Jar Jar Binks.'Nuff said.

Jar jar is lessened as the trilogy goes on, Anakin's dialogue got worse however. Battle droids stayed the same. I call it even.

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The Phantom Menace is as much a bad movie as TESB.

Anakins awful dialogue.Stupid Roger Roger droids.Jar Jar Binks.'Nuff said.

 

The Phantom Menace is as much a bad movie as TESB.

Anakins awful dialogue.Stupid Roger Roger droids.Jar Jar Binks.'Nuff said.

Jar jar is lessened as the trilogy goes on, Anakin's dialogue got worse however. Battle droids stayed the same. I call it even.

 

 

Funny thing is that I was digging around for a Yoda quote, recently, that I could have sworn had a version in the OT - but was only coming up with his prequel quotes.  And reading through the list of them...

 

...and then going onto Obi-Wan quotes from the OT and prequels...

 

...and Palpatine...

 

They're all basically *perfect* for what we expected of those characters from what we'd so far seen.  No issues with that dialog at all.  And most of the new characters work fine in context - Qui-Gon, Mace Windu, etc.

 

Then read Anakin's quotes.  I mean...not even watching the movie, just...read the dialog.

 

It's GODAWFUL.  Livable, I guess, in Episode I given how young the character is, but...oh, man, outright painful in II and (most of) III.

 

So...yeah, that's unfortunate.  Still, I like the prequels for the ideas in them.  The 'universe-building' was amazing, they redefined the Clone Wars into something interesting and complex, they explained so much of things we saw in the OT movies that seemed odd.  Overall, very welcome additions.  But HOLY CRAP were Anakin and Padme dreadfully written and poorly directed.

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Midichlorians come up often in discussion of The Phantom Menace, and are usually ignored without dignity by supporters. It takes the mystical qualities of the Force and turns it into "You have a positive virus!" straight from Red Dwarf.

 

The idea of midichlorians makes the existing series worse. It turns Yoda's "Size matters not" and "For the Force is my ally, and a powerful ally it is" to "Golly, you mean you didn't get enough magic spacebugs from your child-killing daddy? Well, that sucks. Guess I'll lift your ship for ya, wimpy!"

 

But it really goes deeper than that in making the series worse. Lucas stated in an interview he was sick and tired of the 'religious nonsense' coming up around the Force and wanted to put something in the prequels to tamp it down. Apparently on the set of Jedi he and Hamill had a number of arguments and he's such a genius that he doesn't need help from a mere actor.

 

Then there's the writing, but that goes deeper than the dialogue. What is the point of the podrace other than stop the movie dead for some of the longest, most predictable, and pointless five minutes in cinema history? Why does the movie have four separate climaxes that whipsaw back and forth tonally between the drama of Obi-Wan nearly slipping to the Dark Side and the "goofy" antics of Jar Jar and Annie? WHY does the Jedi Council go against their (absolutely 100% CORRECT initial judgment) and allow Anakin to be trained?

 

Nothing is explained. No reasons are given for anything other than "it moves us to the next scene Lucas wanted to put in, so here it is!"

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WHY does the Jedi Council go against their (absolutely 100% CORRECT initial judgment) and allow Anakin to be trained?

 

Well we know at a minimum Yoda was still against it, but he was outvoted.  So there many have been a few others who still were against it as well.

 

But the main reason they flipped their opinion, is that Anakin's heroics in the space battle were clearly not something you see every day, let alone from a young boy.  It surely made it seem more likely to the council members that he WAS the chosen one.  And if he is possibly the chosen one you can't just not train him because of a few reservations.

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The idea of midichlorians makes the existing series worse. It turns Yoda's "Size matters not" and "For the Force is my ally, and a powerful ally it is" to "Golly, you mean you didn't get enough magic spacebugs from your child-killing daddy? Well, that sucks. Guess I'll lift your ship for ya, wimpy!"

 

It really doesn't - as we saw in 'Rogue One' (IE., the movie THIS THREAD IS ABOUT), everything Yoda (and Obi-Wan in the OT...well, about the Force, anyway, as he's a serial liar otherwise...) said is accurate.  The Force IS an energy field that surrounds and connects all life...and you don't need midichlorians to feel it.

 

You certainly need them to control it, though.  But not 'be one with it' or feel its presence.  That just takes training - anyone can do it, if so inclined.

 

And even given that, how does it diminish what Yoda said?  If 'high midichlorian count' is a big part of what determines how effective a Jedi or Sith would be controlling the Force...certainly, that does literally have nothing to do with a person's size.

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"Only a Sith deals on absolutes!"

Yeah. Didn't really think that one through, did they?

 

one thing the prequels have that Rogue One doesn't, though

 

utterly glorious stupidity

 

granted, Rogue One made a valiant effort with Red Five, but it simply pales to my two favorite prequel moments ever

 

1.) Obi Wan's incredible utterly genius plan to foil Grievous

 

 

 

2.) post "reveal" palpatine

 

just...all of it

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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And sadly, Rogue One had absolutely no puppet-y CG characters riding puppet-y CG beasts.

 

The GL magic is gone.

 

In its place is a hard, soulless movie that makes you thank your lucky stars for a comfy house and at least the notion of freedom.

 

 

 

 

 

AND GORRAM X-WINGS!!!

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WHY does the Jedi Council go against their (absolutely 100% CORRECT initial judgment) and allow Anakin to be trained?

 

Well we know at a minimum Yoda was still against it, but he was outvoted.  So there many have been a few others who still were against it as well.

 

But the main reason they flipped their opinion, is that Anakin's heroics in the space battle were clearly not something you see every day, let alone from a young boy.  It surely made it seem more likely to the council members that he WAS the chosen one.  And if he is possibly the chosen one you can't just not train him because of a few reservations.

 

Except that isn't how it happened. That might be your headcanon, but it's not actual canon.

 

The entire Jedi Council was against training the boy, even Obi-Wan was against it! Not one line of dialogue is exchanged about rewarding Anakin for bravery either. From the script:

 

YODA: Confer on you, the level of Jedi Knight the Council does. But agree on you taking this boy as your Padawan learner, I do not.

OBI-WAN: Qui-Gon believed in him.

YODA: The Chosen One the boy may be; nevertheless, grave danger I fear in his training.

OBI-WAN: Master Yoda, I gave Qui-Gon my word. I will train Anakin. Without the approval of the Council if I must.

YODA: Qui-Gon's defiance I sense in you. Need that, you do not. Agree with you, the council does. Your apprentice, Skywalker will be.

 

Why? How? They just... changed their minds?

 

Promoting Kenobi made sense. He defeated a Sith Lord and proved that he was no longer a Padawan. But a Jedi relies on their feelings and intuition, and everyone in the Council (including Obi-Wan!) sensed he was dangerous and should not be trained.

 

And they were right. If they hadn't trained Anakin, maybe just parceled him off with a stipend somewhere - perhaps even on Naboo - and used their connections to get his mom offworld, the Republic would have survived Palpatine.

 

Also, Obi-Wan was clearly unbalanced about his master's death, not making his decision about training the boy from a place of peace; why give into his irrational demands? Instead, they ignore their feelings, ignore their Jedi traditions and training, and end up destroying everything over it.

 

 

If Lucas had included one scene, one line, about how and why they changed their mind, then I wouldn't keep pounding on this point. The only reason that Anakin gets training as a Jedi is because otherwise the story would stop dead. That's Bad Writing 102: How to Ignore Basic Motivations For Your Characters Because You Don't Want To Think Hard.

 

And that's how the whole prequel saga goes: Characters do things because the story needs them to happen, not because it's what the character would do. Padme falls in love with Anakin because the story needs her to, not because they manage to portray him as anything other than super-duper creepy. After 10 years without apparently thinking about his mom, suddenly Anakin wants to go check on her because the story wants him to kill a bunch of random mooks in a rage. Qui-Gonn is willing to mind-trick and cheat at dice to get the part he needs, but somehow doesn't want to break in and steal it instead, because how else would we get to the pod race?

Edited by iamfanboy

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