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Aetrion

[Rules Lawyering] Move cannot be used to throw people.

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There's also one balance factor you've overlooked in your focus on the mechanical aspect of the game, and that is the narrative balance of the setting.

I agree that this issue can be resolved narratively. However, my view is that the game shouldn’t be broken in this respect so that the GM is forced down that path so quickly.

 

Agreed, if you have to resort to narrative mechanics to reign things in, the system is broken.  A lot of people don't play in the default setting anyway, so MMV...

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There's also one balance factor you've overlooked in your focus on the mechanical aspect of the game, and that is the narrative balance of the setting.

I agree that this issue can be resolved narratively. However, my view is that the game shouldn’t be broken in this respect so that the GM is forced down that path so quickly.

 

Agreed, if you have to resort to narrative mechanics to reign things in, the system is broken.  A lot of people don't play in the default setting anyway, so MMV...

 

 

Thing is, it is about was broken as all the other "broken" things. 

 

Furthermore it is not helping to make the claim hat narrative mechanics are a bad thing to deal with strong options. "Geek the Mage first" works since decades just fine with Shadowrun. Threat prioritizing has been always part of the tactical side of RPGs which means as well that not all options need to be equal. All options should be in one way or another fun for the players and if move is hindering the fun of the group in a way which can not be handled by the narrative than the most awesome part of this hobby is that this detail of the game can be changed easily. 

 

Sigh and now I just say houserule it myself. A simple solution for the issues the OP has is to remove one or two of the range updates, which immedially brings move in line with canon. 

Not in my game I hope, because I plan to run with a move build myself, it sounds like fun. ;-)

And for reference: Palpatine wins his duel against Yoda and Maul both based on force move, he seems at a slight disadvantage against both with just the lightsaber. and his unleash is useless against yoda's protect. 

 

Edited by SEApocalypse

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But you're not going to get buy-in by people who like it, you have to go your own way.  In case you're interested, I made my own.  One major change was providing only one Strength upgrade, though it could be triggered more than once (with the right additional upgrade), requiring a pip for each additional Silhouette. 

 

Your tree does make a lot more sense than what FFG currently has printed. I like that there is only one strength upgrade that can be activated multiple times, because it seems cheesy to me that it's not actually hard to throw huge objects if you have enough boxes purchased in the power.

 

I guess if I wrote an improved tree for move it would look a lot like the original FFG tree, but it would specifically state "inanimate objects" for the basic power and attack control, have only one strength box, the other three strength boxes would be replace with your throw ability, which would be two FP to activate, an average Discipline check to move a target by 1 range band, with the knockdown and disorient qualities (need to be activated with advantages) and deal 5 + successes in strain. Then it would contain a power called "Catch" which would allow you to spend a destiny point to make a Move check as an out of turn incidental to catch an object or person that is currently moving through the air and set it down on the ground somewhere within your range. This deals no damage to the object. (Can be used to catch falling people, grenades, objects another Jedi hurls at you,stop collapsing ceilings, prevent jetpackers from flying away...), and then the very bottom would contain a Mastery that would be spend 1 FP and make an opposed Discipline check to allow using a living being as amunition of the Control attack. (but not subject to standard move).

 

I think that would cover pretty much everything you see in the movies, make it much more difficult to throw huge objects, and include throwing people as an option without the ability to drop them to death, or taking away the ability to catch falling comrades. Catch would make the power a versatile defensive ability as well, letting you do all kinds of useful things things that actually do show up in the movies a lot.

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A lot of times on this forum I've seen people discuss how broken it is when people use move to throw their enemies at other enemies, causing massive damage to all of them. I've read over the rules a couple times in order to try and figure out what the hell the writers were thinking. What I noticed is that if you take a very literal reading of the rules it seems that you aren't allowed to actually use Move to throw people at all. 

....

Aetrion, there are a lot of long posts in this thread so forgive me if someone else has made this observation. The problem I'm seeing here and in your other thread on Force Users is that you aren't taking into account the system in total and how it affects individual RAW. As others have pointed out the Move Power, and Force Powers in general, can be very effective but are overall no more effective than a host of other abilities available to non-FUs. Yes there will be certain specific situations where a Force Power will seem broken however those situations are no more likely than those of other powerful abilities in the course of a game.

As with many abilities the Move Power will stomp on Minions and weak Rivals, however so will any PC with a decent Blaster or Melee set up. As the strength of your Enemies go up though all Force Powers, including Move, are no longer a sure thing because stronger Rivals and Nemeses have better Abilities including Ranks of Adversary which make those Attack and Opposed rolls more difficult to achieve. The game scales in this way. At some point though, just like nearly every RPG out there, all the PCs regardless of whether they are Force Users or not, can break both combat and social interactions. It is up to the GM to manage this so that it doesn't get out of hand. But I can tell you that in my experience if you stick to the RAW, don't handwave too much, and don't over do the Rule of Cool, you will find that there will be very few instances where House Ruling things are necessary.

My final comment on this is be careful if you plan on nerfing Force Powers for your Players because despite what you think now the game is pretty well balanced. If you start screwing with things based on the extreme examples I've seen you use, those Players in you games who have Force Using PCs are not going to be happy when they are sitting at the table watching there buddies mow down opponents with blaster fire and vibro blades while they get harassed by you for tossing a few Stormtroopers off a ledge once and a while.

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I like that there is only one strength upgrade that can be activated multiple times, because it seems cheesy to me that it's not actually hard to throw huge objects if you have enough boxes purchased in the power.

 

Not to defend FFG's Move too much, but *throwing* is actually harder than it seems from just a reading of the rules.  In actual play it's usually too difficult to bother with.  Throwing requires a Discipline test vs Silhouette, so tossing AT-ATs is countered by 4 negative dice.  You have to be very strongly Disciplined to consider trying it and risk wasting a turn, and in most cases you're better off going for Sil1 or Sil2.  So my objection isn't really the difficulty of throwing, it's that:

 

a) in canon, throwing things is rare and only the most powerful practitioners do it

b) in canon, even the most powerful practitioners practically pop a vein trying to use Move on something as big as Sil3

 

Pips-wise, though, it is much too easy.  With very little XP, a neo-phyte FR1 character can move an AT-AT across a hangar about 40% of the time.  My canon-fan sensibilities are offended by such silliness   :ph34r:

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I don't think it's petty at all...

Sorry, but the fact you're trying to use exact wording to prevent a game effect from being used as intended over a make-believe scenario makes it incredibly petty on your part.  It'd be much the same as trying to argue that Breach only reduces Armor but has no impact on Soak based upon an overly strict interpretation of how a portion of the rules text is worded.

 

Much like your "the sky is falling!" thread about PCs getting high Force Ratings (something that was categorically and repeatedly shown to NOT be a concern), unless your players are actively trying to manipulate and twist the rules to their benefit.

 

I won't argue that Move isn't a powerful effect, but it's not nearly as powerful as it looks at first glance, since the PC either has to invest heavily in the power tree to purchase the various upgrades, has to invest a lot of XP into boosting up their Force Rating, or some combination of the two in order to make it a reliably powerful means of attack.

 

There's also one balance factor you've overlooked in your focus on the mechanical aspect of the game, and that is the narrative balance of the setting.  Move is one of the most grossly blatant Force powers in the game in terms of its effects, and it'd be very easy to say that the Force user is affecting anything of Silhoutte 1 or larger, there's no disguising who's responsible for people and things suddenly getting flung around.  Qui-Gon was able to downplay his manipulating of Watto's chance cube because it was so small, he's a Jedi Master with decades of experience, and he only needed to give it a slight nudge rather than manipulate it outright.  But any other time we see a Force user using Move, there's an outstretched limb and hand gestures making it pretty clear who the responsible party is.  And in the default era that these games are set in, being identified as a Force user is a bad thing, since most people tend to equate being a Force user with being a Jedi, and the Empire has a very strong dislike of Jedi running around causing trouble.  A PC that's being too open and flashy with using Move to deal with opponents is going to eventually draw the attention of the Empire, be it Inquisitors (at first), up to Darth Vader if they become a big enough nuisance, and the rules for fighting Darth Vader = you lose (as noted in the Rescue at Glare Peak module should the PCs be unlucky enough to not escape before Vader shows up).

 

I would even go one further; the game style is heavily influenced by the Original Trilogy, and as such it would rely more on Yoda's line about a Jedi using the force for knowledge and defence, never for attack.

 

Using move on any sentient for the purposes of knocking them around or down should - in my prequel loathing view (nothing quite as diminished as the heavy responsibility of the OT-era Jedi, replaced by one-dimensional robe wearing flipping out space ninja wizards...) - be grounds for conflict. Esp in that era, where the emphasis needs to be on the Jedi as selfless guardians.

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Not to defend FFG's Move too much, but *throwing* is actually harder than it seems from just a reading of the rules.  In actual play it's usually too difficult to bother with.  Throwing requires a Discipline test vs Silhouette, so tossing AT-ATs is countered by 4 negative dice.  You have to be very strongly Disciplined to consider trying it and risk wasting a turn, and in most cases you're better off going for Sil1 or Sil2.  So my objection isn't really the difficulty of throwing, it's that:

 

a) in canon, throwing things is rare and only the most powerful practitioners do it

b) in canon, even the most powerful practitioners practically pop a vein trying to use Move on something as big as Sil3

 

Pips-wise, though, it is much too easy.  With very little XP, a neo-phyte FR1 character can move an AT-AT across a hangar about 40% of the time.  My canon-fan sensibilities are offended by such silliness   :ph34r:

 

Yea, when you're dealing with characters that have discipline 3-4 none of the offensive force powers are really all that good of a first choice in combat against tough opponents because it's just way too easy to waste your turn botching an opposed check. When you get up there though and you can roll those checks with some confidence it changes the dynamics a bit.

 

Moving AT-ATs makes me think: Are there rules for walker fall damage? I don't think I've seen any, but I could be wrong. Throwing an AT-AT would ironically do nothing at all to it because of the armor being able to eat all 40 damage, even though in the movies just knocking them over with cables was enough to take them down. 

 

But yea, I agree, in the movies the most powerful characters, like Yoda with 870 years of Jedi training, struggle to move Sil3 objects, but even just the Force Sensitive Exile from the EotE core could move a Sil4 with a bit of luck or destiny points. The sort of irony of it is that throwing Sil4 objects actually really isn't the most powerful thing you can do with FFGs move. 

 

I have to write up my overhauled Move I guess and post it, I'd like to know what you think.

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Not to defend FFG's Move too much, but *throwing* is actually harder than it seems from just a reading of the rules.  In actual play it's usually too difficult to bother with.  Throwing requires a Discipline test vs Silhouette, so tossing AT-ATs is countered by 4 negative dice.  You have to be very strongly Disciplined to consider trying it and risk wasting a turn, and in most cases you're better off going for Sil1 or Sil2.  So my objection isn't really the difficulty of throwing, it's that:

 

a) in canon, throwing things is rare and only the most powerful practitioners do it

b) in canon, even the most powerful practitioners practically pop a vein trying to use Move on something as big as Sil3

 

Pips-wise, though, it is much too easy.  With very little XP, a neo-phyte FR1 character can move an AT-AT across a hangar about 40% of the time.  My canon-fan sensibilities are offended by such silliness   :ph34r:

 

Yea, when you're dealing with characters that have discipline 3-4 none of the offensive force powers are really all that good of a first choice in combat against tough opponents because it's just way too easy to waste your turn botching an opposed check. When you get up there though and you can roll those checks with some confidence it changes the dynamics a bit.

 

Moving AT-ATs makes me think: Are there rules for walker fall damage? I don't think I've seen any, but I could be wrong. Throwing an AT-AT would ironically do nothing at all to it because of the armor being able to eat all 40 damage, even though in the movies just knocking them over with cables was enough to take them down. 

 

But yea, I agree, in the movies the most powerful characters, like Yoda with 870 years of Jedi training, struggle to move Sil3 objects, but even just the Force Sensitive Exile from the EotE core could move a Sil4 with a bit of luck or destiny points. The sort of irony of it is that throwing Sil4 objects actually really isn't the most powerful thing you can do with FFGs move. 

 

I have to write up my overhauled Move I guess and post it, I'd like to know what you think.

 

 

That struggling Yoda was one who had committed at least 4 dice into enhanced, potentially even more. He has was showing a lot less trouble at the beginning of his duel with the Count and was throwing left and right sil 2 stuff. ;-)

 

I still kind of agree that the strength upgrade and as well the range upgrades are kind of silly. Not really their pure existence, but mainly their and pip xp cost. I can live with force wielders powerful enough to compress whole starts with move, but they way move is designed makes it rather easy to handle and cheap to max out. With just force rating one you can theoretically already lift up a sil 4 freighter. That is indeed a little silly. It is not game breaking silly, but it really is an oddity, especially as the developer answers are not that clear either on the issue that you can move a whole golan-II space station for 3 pips or spend 5 and move 8 star destroyers pointing their noses at you from 8 directions. Now the nav thrusters of those ships or stations alone could compensate for the momentum you give them, but it still impressive for force rating 3 and completely braking any reasonable comparison with any example in canon or legends.

 

Just disallowing multiple activations of magnitude and strength and requiring each rank of the talent to be activated individually with force pips would bring it a lot more in line with canon. Additional ranks give you in this case merely the option to move stuff up to sil 4 and up to 5 objects.

But again,I don't see a huge issue with move, especially has big objects become a huge pain and challenge for the discipline roll. 

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BTW, here Maul, the weakest of the Sith in all of canon throwing casually a sil 4 shuttle of a cliff. (ok, 2nd weakest if you count Savage Opress as Sith based on him being the apprentice of Maul who declared himself master without actually killing his master)

 

https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=5m24s

Edited by SEApocalypse

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I wouldn't call that Sil4, it's a pretty small shuttle. And that was simple Move, not throwing, and still the best he could do was drag it with great concentration, but rules-wise he wouldn't even be rolling Discipline.

Edited by whafrog

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The shots from within show that the cockpits are roughly the same size (the eta has a slightly bigger cockpit even), which should give you an idea about the ships in comparison. :)

EtaShuttle-SOTF.jpgShuttle-CHRON.jpg

I was not trying to imply that used a range combat check. And he most certainly did throw that shuttle off that cliff. :P
There were some doubts about force users even lifting sil 4 objects and this is a pretty good example.

Edited by SEApocalypse

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Yeah, Move can be powerful, but all the offensive force powers are pretty good. One good example I remember form the movies to throw people and do damage with the hit is Yoda vs Palapatine when he knocks Palapatine's guards unconscious against the wall.

The first thing that I would like to point out, is that Move is pretty situational power. You need things/creatures to throw around, and big items might not be available. Moving enemies, while useful, can be hard if those enemies make opposed rolls to resist. 

 

The most controversial use of Move is the moving upwards and letting enemies freefall, wich I would argue the devs didn't really intend for this kind of use. First this requires a high ceiling, and depending on the campaign not a single combat might happen outdoors. Also considering you are free-falling I would allow for an athletics or coordination roll to mitigate/control the fall to reduce or even negate the damage. Maybe even throw a grappling hook or something like that.

 

Another thing about this power is that is the one that scales the worst, you might get more and more FR, but it's effectiveness in combat will not increase in practice. The rules for hurl recommends you to use autofire rules to hit with several objects, wich will be limited by your discipline roll. Even if you can throw 10 things at someone, you will realistically hit only with 2 or 3. Also the size determines both the damage and the difficulty. If you start factoring in defense, adversary ranks, etc hitting with big items might not be so easy anymore. If you also count Suppress into the picture it's effectiveness will be curb stomped. So yeah, great at lower FR, but at certain point other powers or a lightsaber might be more effective.

 

Now lets consider the other powers. Harm lets you do pretty good damage ignoring soak to multiple targets without the limitations of Move. It also can heal people and make you recover lots of strain, and even resurrect people. It's only situational in the sense that only affects living beings.

Bind lets you restrain opponents, something I would argue is outside of the intended use of Move. It can do ok damage, you can scale it to other enemies just as easy as with Harm and provide reliable hard control or do big crits with the mastery. And you can commit force dice to leave them there, while you do other things

And lastly Unleash is the one that scales the most with higher FR. You can add a lot of extra stuff to your damage and it scales the best of all with strength ranks. As opposed to Move, the difficulty is fixed regardless of range or sizes. You can also hit engaged enemies of the main target with no extra difficulty with those magnitude upgrades.

 

To be honest what I think makes the Move power great is that it gives a lot of outside of combat utility, a thing the other powers do not have.

Edited by blackyce

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I wouldn't call that Sil4, it's a pretty small shuttle.

 

It's Sil3, the official stats for that ship are on Page 61 of Endless Vigil.

 

To be honest what I think makes the Move power great is that it gives a lot of outside of combat utility, a thing the other powers do not have.

 

I agree there, Move would be worth having even if it had no combat applications whatsoever. I think a lot of the problems with the power as written comes simply out of the fact that they didn't want to nerf its narrative freedom too much. 

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Both. The power is incredibly abusable, and even the people writing the movies realized that if they portray force powers that can so utterly dominate a person they would eternally be begging the question why anyone even bothers with a lightsaber. In the movies force powers generally stalemate each other, and the fights have to be resolved with a lightsaber. This dynamic was brilliantly explored in game form in the Jedi Knight series, which represented all the powers from the movies incredibly well. In SWRP on the other hand whoever wins the first opposed check basically gains the ability to throw their opponent down the nearest garbage chute or worse.

 

You also have to understand that the characters in the movies are written with a strict mental default as well. The Jedi are patterned off of the Samurai of Japan's history, and as such, are controlled by a method of behavior. They see the Force and it's use in very similar terms to Martial Arts, and as such certain things are allowed, and other things are not allowed. Tradition dictates their use. The Sith are the same, governed by millennia of tradition, things are allowed, other things are not allowed. As much as they Sith talk about how the Jedi bind themselves, they too bind themselves by their tradition (the Rule of Two clearly showing this). Just as Bruce Lee showed through Jeet Kun Do, those traditional forms, styles, and behaviors could be beaten efficiently should they be ignored, and Martial Arts without restrictions could be abusive when facing Martial Arts constrained by those traditions. The preference for combat by lightsaber is A CHOICE of the characters in the movies, all of whom obeyed those traditions. As such, it makes for an invalid argument when discussing the capabilities of the powers.

 

 

There is no rule that stops you from moving something from close to extreme range in a single turn. Bind has a rule like that, Move does not.

 

You completely ignored the second paragraph of his post wherein he quotes the description of the power which states: "When moving items, the default speed is slow and deliberate, not fast enough to inflict injury …" To move the character with alacrity (even straight up without inflicting injury - the qualifying phrase here is "fast enough to") one must make the opposed check ... period. Think C-3P0 on Endor, slow and steady.

 

 

The rules for the power read "...move one object of silhouette 0 that is within short range up to his maximum range." So the way you can read that is that you can only pick up objects that are in short range to you, and you can move them to anywhere up to your maximum range in that turn. The Range upgrades for Move state that they raise your maximum range, and there is enough of them to get you Extreme range as your maximum.

 

This is a fallacious argument. The statement "...move one object of silhouette 0 that is within short range up to his maximum range" refers to the use of power in general, and not all inclusive, which in no way relates to the time frame. So your conclusion on how someone should interpret this is wrong, it does not specify in any way how long said Force Power usage would take to complete. The rationale for "up to maximum range" is definition of a single use of the basic Force Point spent on the power - this can be inferred due to the lack of specificity of the statement regarding maximum range. Thanks to the multiple expenditures of Force Points on a Single Range increment, the "maximum range" of the power is conditional upon the number of Force Points spent on upgrades. With the description of the power stating "When moving items, the default speed is slow and deliberate, not fast enough to inflict injury" and a single use of the power being "...move one object of silhouette 0 that is within short range up to his maximum range" the only conclusion that supports both outcomes is to allow that the time taken for the object to complete its journey is malleable. As a "turn" has no set amount of time, then the GM must adjudicate its time on a case by case basis. A reasonable counter to a PC using this power is to say "That will take a long time to get the target to the desired height, while it will take you only a turn to activate the power and achieve the effect, it will take the target X turns to reach that distance, or you can make this an opposed combat check to 'Force Push/Pull' them instead. This is NOT making up rules, rather maintaining the inferred written consistency of the power.

Edited by Kyla

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Well, here is a rebuilt Move power tree that solves all of the issues IMO:

 

iqBVFEI.jpg

 

Primary changes: 

 

The basic power now clearly states that it moves an object or creature by one range band, so "Slow and deliberate" isn't just flavor text, and it's not possible to drop someone from lethal heights in a single round unless they were already standing next to a deadly drop. 

 

Strength now needs to be purchased for every silhouette increase, and can be purchased an unlimited number of times. It also now sets the maximum combined silhouette of all objects moved, so lifting two X-wings is now genuinely twice as demanding as lifting just one. 

 

There is one less Magnitude box.

 

There is a duration power that lets you levitate an object in place, meaning if you need to move something more than one range band without setting it down you can take multiple turns to do so. (The full page text for this would mention that if you move out of range the effect ends) 

 

Range upgrades now set the distance at which you can pick objects up, not the distance you can move them. They always only move one range band at a time. 

 

Added Push as a standard Move based attack, as it is seen in the movies.

 

Modified Throw to clearly state that you can hurl both objects and opponents, but changed it so you can't throw an object at extreme range, you can only throw it at someone who is within short range of the object you are throwing. Also Throw would now always be an average Check, because lifting huge objects is now much more heavily limited by force points, so it doesn't need the extra limitation of a harder attack roll.

 

Added Catch control node which allows you to perform Move as an out of turn incidental to grab objects that are in the air, allowing you to use Move to defend yourself against grenades, thrown objects etc, or catch a falling ally and so on.

 

Rolled the two control upgrades that let you grab mounted objects and perform fine manipulations into a single mastery upgrade. 

Edited by Aetrion

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There is no rule that stops you from moving something from close to extreme range in a single turn. Bind has a rule like that, Move does not.

 

You completely ignored the second paragraph of his post wherein he quotes the description of the power which states: "When moving items, the default speed is slow and deliberate, not fast enough to inflict injury …" To move the character with alacrity (even straight up without inflicting injury - the qualifying phrase here is "fast enough to") one must make the opposed check ... period. Think C-3P0 on Endor, slow and steady.

 

 

There still is no rule that explicitly states a limitation to where you can move something to "slowly and deliberately". It's just a bit of flavor text that isn't backed up by any mechanics. It doesn't say anywhere how many range bands you can move someone. Of course the power should work like C-3PO on Endor, but a simple mention of only being able to move things by one range band per turn would have codified that in a way that isn't just pointing at a piece of flavor text and inferring mechanical limitations from it. There is nothing fallacious about pointing out that FFG didn't provide reasonable mechanical limits to the power, what's fallacious is insisting that your subjective interpretation of the flavor text is a counter argument to someone saying that there is no mechanical limit given. 

 

Anyways, my rewrite includes a power that works mechanically the way you think it should work based on the flavor text. The disconnect between mechanics and theme in the original rules is all I was pointing out.

Edited by Aetrion

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There is no rule that stops you from moving something from close to extreme range in a single turn. Bind has a rule like that, Move does not.

 

You completely ignored the second paragraph of his post wherein he quotes the description of the power which states: "When moving items, the default speed is slow and deliberate, not fast enough to inflict injury …" To move the character with alacrity (even straight up without inflicting injury - the qualifying phrase here is "fast enough to") one must make the opposed check ... period. Think C-3P0 on Endor, slow and steady.

 

 

There still is no rule that explicitly states a limitation to where you can move something to "slowly and deliberately". It's just a bit of flavor text that isn't backed up by any mechanics. It doesn't say anywhere how many range bands you can move someone. Of course the power should work like C-3PO on Endor, but a simple mention of only being able to move things by one range band per turn would have codified that in a way that isn't just pointing at a piece of flavor text and inferring mechanical limitations from it. There is nothing fallacious about pointing out that FFG didn't provide reasonable mechanical limits to the power, what's fallacious is insisting that your subjective interpretation of the flavor text is a counter argument to someone saying that there is no mechanical limit given. 

 

Anyways, my rewrite includes a power that works mechanically the way you think it should work based on the flavor text. The disconnect between mechanics and theme in the original rules is all I was pointing out.

 

 

Not sure how you can call the interpretation "subjective" when the description of the power specifically says "slow and deliberate". Are you actually going to argue that if someone used the Move basic power to lift a data pad from short range to extreme range (presuming the appropriate number of range upgrades are activated) and the player in question argued they can do it one round because the rules are 'silent' on the matter you'd let them? Just because its not in the specific power section of the Move rules? At some point the Developers rely on people to use common sense, otherwise the core books would have to be twice as large and four times as expensive (editing costs money too).

 

Look, I'll agree the Move power could use a lot of clarification and some re-write. I suspect the issue stems from it being one of the first Force powers to be written for the game system, and it was back in a time when Force use was very low powered and not fully fleshed out. The wording of the power itself has changed little since it was first written for EoE and re-released in F&D, which could imply more of a cut and paste. The newer force powers typically include more specific information on usage. My guess is that the Move Power was not re-visited by the developers for such clarifications.

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There still is no rule that explicitly states a limitation to where you can move something to "slowly and deliberately". It's just a bit of flavor text that isn't backed up by any mechanics. It doesn't say anywhere how many range bands you can move someone. 

 

Because that is determined by the number of Range upgrades you have purchased.  I am baffled that you don't understand this.  If you are moving them carefully, you are limited by the range at which you could actually MOVE something with Move.  If you are trying to Move them to Extreme range, but you can only use Move out to Short, well, that's a pretty straightforward answer to whether or not you can Move them to that Extreme location in a slow and deliberate manner.

 

 

 

 Of course the power should work like C-3PO on Endor, but a simple mention of only being able to move things by one range band per turn would have codified that in a way that isn't just pointing at a piece of flavor text and inferring mechanical limitations from it. 

 

Do you honestly have to have EVERY little nitpick and nuance spelled out for you before you can function as a GM?  This isn't a game breaking thing.   You could describe it, instead of like having a linebacker tackle you in the chest, flinging you back 20 ft, that it's more like 2 linebackers, swiftly grabbing you under the arms and runnning you back 20 feet, then plopping you on the ground.  Both can happen in one turn, but one hurts you, and the other doesn't.   Or you can do what you think should've been spelled out, instead of just, you know, running it that way, and say it takes a few turns to move them at a controlled pace over several range bands.  

 

Anyways, my rewrite includes a power that works mechanically the way you think it should work based on the flavor text. The disconnect between mechanics and theme in the original rules is all I was pointing out.

 

I disagree with your statement that it works in a way *I* think it should based on the text, as I feel the description of the power is just fine.  FFG never set out to codify every single nuance and nitpick of the game.  The idea was for it to be fluid and narrative, and to not waste time aruging over the minutiae of the mechanics.   And they've stated many times, publicly that if you don't like the rules, change them how you see fit.

 

But the fact that YOU think the rules are just flat out wrong, doesn't make that statement actually true.   Most people feel the rules for the power, are balanced internally, and when compared to others, and have even given you multiple examples of how it's not as broken as you think it is, compared to other powers, and how it has checks and balances in place to offset the overuse of it.  

 

So really, why is this thread even here?

 

You think it's broken, we disagree (mostly), ok, fine, run your game how you want, but don't try and convince us for 5 pages worth of posts that you're right and we're wrong, because that's just not going to happen.  And frankly, there is no point to it.  I don't care how you read the rules for Move.  If your table is fine with the updated rules, fine, knock yourself out, use them and have fun.  I'm going to totally ignore them and play them as I see fit as the GM of MY table, in a way that is agreed upon by my players, and that we have fun with.    Everything else is pointless detail hashing, and contrary to spirit of the game itself, which is supposed to be narrative driven. 

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Not sure how you can call the interpretation "subjective" when the description of the power specifically says "slow and deliberate". Are you actually going to argue that if someone used the Move basic power to lift a data pad from short range to extreme range (presuming the appropriate number of range upgrades are activated) and the player in question argued they can do it one round because the rules are 'silent' on the matter you'd let them? Just because its not in the specific power section of the Move rules? At some point the Developers rely on people to use common sense, otherwise the core books would have to be twice as large and four times as expensive (editing costs money too).

 

Because it is subjective. A roleplaying game always exists on two levels, there is the narrative level, which is the story we tell, and there is the mechanical level, which is the specific numbers underlying it all. Every time the book gives us a narrative description of something without underpinning it with a mechanical structure it leaves the limits up to the subjective interpretation of the game master and players.

 

The mechanical level specifically exists to introduce an objective measurement of things.  Saying "My character is super strong so he can lift this thing" and someone saying "That thing? Nuh uh, it's like uber heavy" is just two people's subjective interpretation of the situation. There is no right answer except giving someone the power to issue a ruling. Saying "My character has a strength of 5 so he can lift that thing" and someone saying "That object has an encumbrance of 11, so he will have to roll an athletics check" gives you an objective measure of what happens.

 

The text stating that objects are moved slowly and deliberately is simply a subjective statement because it doesn't draw on the mechanics of the game to define exactly what it means. For example a turn in the game can take several minutes, so how far could C-3PO have flown in 5 minutes? Half a mile? That's extreme range. You simply can't make any definitive statements about what happens until there is a mechanical limit set. 

 

My suggested rebuild of Move solves this issue with half a dozen words added. I don't think the book has to be twice as long to cover problems like this. 

 

 

Because that is determined by the number of Range upgrades you have purchased.  I am baffled that you don't understand this.  If you are moving them carefully, you are limited by the range at which you could actually MOVE something with Move.  If you are trying to Move them to Extreme range, but you can only use Move out to Short, well, that's a pretty straightforward answer to whether or not you can Move them to that Extreme location in a slow and deliberate manner.

 

 

Uhh, you're not making any sense here. The whole argument was that someone said it would take several turns to move someone from short to extreme range, to which I replied that there is no rule that states that that's how long it takes. They said "Yes there is, the book says you move people slowly and deliberately" and I said "That's not a rule, that's just flavor text", and then you come back at me going "The rule is you can move things however far your range is" ...  Which is exactly what I was saying in the first place!

 

 

but don't try and convince us for 5 pages worth of posts that you're right and we're wrong, because that's just not going to happen.  

 
I'm not forcing anyone to respond to this thread. Reality is, I've posted a rework of the rules above and not a single person has responded to that, because they aren't here to be constructive, they are just here because "Hey look, a lot of people disagree with someone, I want to be part of that!" 
Edited by Aetrion

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Added Catch control node which allows you to perform Move as an out of turn incidental to grab objects that are in the air, allowing you to use Move to defend yourself against grenades, thrown objects etc, or catch a falling ally and so on.

 

I like this addition.  I might replace the DP with Strain, and I think an argument could be made to make it available sooner, but it adds needed utility to the power.

 

For Push...it explains most of the use of Force Push from Padawan through Knight (hitting one or two opponents at a time), but it doesn't really account for, say, Ahsoka laying down a series of B1s, B2s, and Droidekas on Onderon; Savage Oppress during his escape from Dooku+Ventress+Obiwan+Anakin; or Mace and his thunder wave of destruction on Ryloth.  Adding an allowance to add pips to increase damage might be useful.  Your Push starts with Sil * 10 damage, so you might want to require 2 pips per damage increase interval...  And lastly I'm not really a fan of the Sil * 10 formula.  Why should a Rancor take more damage if you push it?

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I like this addition.  I might replace the DP with Strain, and I think an argument could be made to make it available sooner, but it adds needed utility to the power.

 

For Push...it explains most of the use of Force Push from Padawan through Knight (hitting one or two opponents at a time), but it doesn't really account for, say, Ahsoka laying down a series of B1s, B2s, and Droidekas on Onderon; Savage Oppress during his escape from Dooku+Ventress+Obiwan+Anakin; or Mace and his thunder wave of destruction on Ryloth.  Adding an allowance to add pips to increase damage might be useful.  Your Push starts with Sil * 10 damage, so you might want to require 2 pips per damage increase interval...  And lastly I'm not really a fan of the Sil * 10 formula.  Why should a Rancor take more damage if you push it?

 

Most of the out of turn incidental uses of force powers are DP + once per session. I don't want to make it too cheap, because there are some ways to basically get infinite strain, like standing next to a well built Politico. 

 

Setting a base damage for push is tough. The maximum straight up damage a force power can do is unleash with base of will + 4 per strength activation and a two pip base cost. Maybe it could just be 2 or 3 damage per force pip spent, or maybe a Strain for damage exchange. Sil x 10 makes sense for objects being thrown IMO, and to me it does make sense that a very large heavy creature hitting the wall or being bowled over would take greater injuries than a small creature. But I guess they don't always hit the wall or fall over, so the damage would have to come from the actual shockwave.

 

I think it's iffy to write the rules so that every activation of the power recreates particularly heroic moments in the source material, that's why there should be some kind of cost to making it really powerful, like the strain/conflict you suffer and DPs you flip for getting your absolute maximum of activations.

Edited by Aetrion

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I'm not forcing anyone to respond to this thread. Reality is, I've posted a rework of the rules above and not a single person has responded to that, because they aren't here to be constructive, they are just here because "Hey look, a lot of people disagree with someone, I want to be part of that!" 

 

 

Or maybe it has been up for about an hour and a half and people haven't had time to fully read, and digest the rule change you are suggesting. At least in North America it is still business hours and people have day jobs.

 

The reality is you started a post with the title "Rules Lawyering" and proceeded to give a very weak argument for why the Move power can't be used on people, with the rationale for this belief mostly stemming from "I don't like the way the Move power is written." Members on this forum have disagreed with you on your core premise.

 

When I have more time, I will vet your suggestion on the Move power. At first blush it has promise, and I like what you've done with it.

Edited by Magnus Arcanus

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Because that is determined by the number of Range upgrades you have purchased.  I am baffled that you don't understand this.  If you are moving them carefully, you are limited by the range at which you could actually MOVE something with Move.  If you are trying to Move them to Extreme range, but you can only use Move out to Short, well, that's a pretty straightforward answer to whether or not you can Move them to that Extreme location in a slow and deliberate manner.

 

 

Uhh, you're not making any sense here. The whole argument was that someone said it would take several turns to move someone from short to extreme range, to which I replied that there is no rule that states that that's how long it takes. They said "Yes there is, the book says you move people slowly and deliberately" and I said "That's not a rule, that's just flavor text", and then you come back at me going "The rule is you can move things however far your range is" ...  Which is exactly what I was saying in the first place!

 

 

 

I quoted exactly what you said in your previous post, where you say, and I quote again " It doesn't say anywhere how many range bands you can move someone. "    You don't say how long in that statement, you just say it doesn't say how many range bands you can move someone.  The rest of my point is "so what that it doesn't say how long?"  Just make a determination and go with it. 

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