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[Rules Lawyering] Move cannot be used to throw people.

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2 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

 

Where does the rules for this power say it takes a round or that it occurs at the end of a round?  The activating PCs action moves the target.  That's it.  I just reread it.  Unless I didn't see it there I don't see any text saying it takes until the end of the round.  It just says the target is moved.  By the action.  There is no time delay mentioned.

Why don't they take damage?  That's where the narrative comes in.  The effect is pretty clear, the story around it is up to the players.  Maybe it's because you moved them slowly.  Maybe they're tough and have armor and the toss, not intended to do harm, didn't.  Maybe they hit something that broke their fall.

Using your interpretation if Move was used to move a melee combatant from Engaged to Long range and the melee combatant acted in the next initiative slot then they're still in Engaged Range?  Or are they at Short?  Or are they at an undeterminate distance?

The rules say Move's base power is slow and deliberate (page 298, "When moving items, the default speed is slow and deliberate, not fast enough to inflict injury or accurate enough to allow fine manipulation.") This is in the base power's description as to how it works. When asked if you could use Move to "fly", the Devs clarified  using Move's base power that you're moving the target at about walking speed which takes a full round  to cover the said distance (however much distance you can normally move using your one or two maneuvers in a single round), and is therefore too slow for flight. So that is the literal amount of time it takes for the target to travel the given distance narratively. It takes the full round to travel that distance from the time it starts to the time the target lands. the full description of Bind's movement upgrade, on page 286, however, specifically says that the movement is immediate; one second he is one place, and the next second he is up to several meters away from where he started, basically in the blink of an eye. While "mechanically" there may not be "much" difference, narratively, that difference is huge

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You are really reading things in there.

You're mixing mechanical effects with narrative flair.  Which to some degree is understandable because the descriptions do some of that.  In fact the phrase "slow and deliberate" is in the narrative section of the power.  The bullet-point description - the mechanical description - does not say anything about that, it just says you can move an object of Sil 0 up to max (short) range.  Ditto for the mechanical description from the tree.  This time/speed component is not there mechanically.

The devs response to "flying" was that it was too slow.  That's the narrative reason. 

Mechanically the answer is just: no you can't use this power to fly. 

Reading into the power some sort of generally applicable "walking speed" is nonsensical.  The devs did not just add a "yeah, this power takes effect at the end of the round" component.  After the action is performed that target has finished moving.  This is indisputable.  Even if you want to maintain the target can only be moved at "walking speed" that's still the case.  A turn of action is not a fixed time - it's narrative.   So, if you insist on moving being done at "walking speed" that's fine but it still only takes one action and is completed at the end of that action.  Even normal movement doesn't occur at the end of the round.  If you use a Maneuver to move range increments you've actually moved range increments using the Maneuver.   Go back to the scenario I asked you about.  It's impossible to adjudicate interpreting the rules as you do.

Edited by Jedi Ronin

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@Jedi Ronin has it. Bind has elements of it which resolve slowly over time, so it is important to stipulate that the movement upgrade occurs with immediate effect. Move on the other hand is always resolved immediately.

The Bind upgrades description is referring to the "when" that it happens, not the "how"

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30 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

@Jedi Ronin has it. Bind has elements of it which resolve slowly over time, so it is important to stipulate that the movement upgrade occurs with immediate effect. Move on the other hand is always resolved immediately.

The Bind upgrades description is referring to the "when" that it happens, not the "how"

Interesting!

Counterpoint, Tramp? Something other than "slow and deliberate," because we've already got that and have provided reasonable rationales as to why it needn't apply in every circumstance.

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3 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Not entirely true. IF you remember, I first said that for Bind, you did need to spend the FP on the base power even to use the upgrade, though you didn't need to explicitly immobilize the target when doing so. So the first part of my presumption was correct in that regard. The second part is still up in the air. 

Sorry, really couldn't be bothered to keep track between all your flip-flopping and waffling during your half-assed efforts to justify your incorrect reading of the powers.  Guess it's just too much for you to man up and actually admit your interpretations were off the mark, eh?

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7 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The rules say Move's base power is slow and deliberate (page 298, "When moving items, the default speed is slow and deliberate, not fast enough to inflict injury or accurate enough to allow fine manipulation.") This is in the base power's description as to how it works. When asked if you could use Move to "fly", the Devs clarified  using Move's base power that you're moving the target at about walking speed which takes a full round  to cover the said distance (however much distance you can normally move using your one or two maneuvers in a single round), and is therefore too slow for flight. So that is the literal amount of time it takes for the target to travel the given distance narratively. It takes the full round to travel that distance from the time it starts to the time the target lands. the full description of Bind's movement upgrade, on page 286, however, specifically says that the movement is immediate; one second he is one place, and the next second he is up to several meters away from where he started, basically in the blink of an eye. While "mechanically" there may not be "much" difference, narratively, that difference is huge

The devs said your interpretation was wrong and you still fight about it. Cant imagine why you cant find a play group. 

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I'll just leave this here...

I went and asked the question.

Quote
Rules Question:
Hello! I have a question about pushing and pulling enemies through the Force. Some people are arguing that, with the advent of Force and Destiny, the *Bind* power is now the only proper way to perform a "Force push" (and also "pull"), because they say the Move basic power is "too slow." I've been ruling that the Move power can be used to perform a Force push/pull (with the appropriate Strength upgrades for silhouette size, and with the "ranged attack" Control upgrade if I want to deal damage with the push). Is that a reasonable use of the Move power, using it to perform a Force push/pull with just the basic power & Strength upgrade?

And the reply:

Quote
The Move power works just fine for pushing people around, or pulling them around! 
 
Hope this helps!
 
 
Sam Stewart
RPG Manager
Fantasy Flight Games

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Well, I just sent a question about this to Sam and got a response back in surprisingly in a bout an hour. 

 

Quote

Tramp Graphics Asked on On Feb 9, 2017, at 2:42 PM:

Rules Question:
I have a question regarding Force Push and Force Pull. If you look at the canon, including the movies and cartoons, we see a number of instances where Force Psuh and Force Pull are not used as a "ranged attack" to hurl individuals at other individuals. Rather, they are often used to pull targets to the user or push them away at relatively high speed, but not necessarily injuring the. For example: Yoda Force Pushes Palpatine across a room causing him to tumble head over heels across his desk and land in a jumbe on the floor, but otherwise unharmed, Kanan using Force Push to propel his allies across a chasm. Kylo Ren to yank a First Order Officer to him from across the room, and later to shove Rey back several meters resulting in her colliding with a tree, and staggered, but otherwise unhurt. Now, based upon the RAW, these all fit within the Bind movement upgrade the full text of which states on page 286 of F&D: "Spend Force Point to immediately move the target one range band toward or away from the user." Now, to me that reads Force Push and Force Pull. yet many other claim that Move is the only power to use for Force Push and Force Pull no matter what; even if you're not trying to use it as a ranged attack in order to inflict wound damage (ala the Move Hurl upgrade), and you, yourself stated that the base Move power only moves things (and people) at roughly walking speed. So my question is, CAN you use Bind's movement upgrade for these non wound inflicting uses of Force Push and Force Pull, as the upgrade seems to be intended, or are you required to always use Move no matter your intent? And if it is the latter then what is the point of the Bind Movement upgrade if it is not to simulate Force Push and Force Pull? Because, as written, that upgrade describes those abilities to a tee.

Sam Stewart responded: 

Hello Michael,

 
You can use Bind to move people closer to you and further away from you, as per its upgrade. You can also use Move to move people closer to you and further away from you, as per the upgrade. 
 
Honestly, I’m not sure what your question is. Does it really matter what Force power you use to shove someone away from you? The end result is the same.
 
Sam Stewart
RPG Manager
Fantasy Flight Games

So, yes, Bind's movement upgrade is just as viable for Force Push and Force Pull as Move. So if you want to use Move, use Move. If you want to use Bind's movement upgrade, you can do that as well. It was indeed intended as a potential use for Force Push and Force Pull.  you are not limited to only using Move

 

I also got this response to a followup question: 

Quote

 

On Feb 9, 2017, at 3:16 PM,Tramp Graphics wrote:
Well, the issue is that almost everyone is saying the Force Push and Force Pull are always done through Move no matter what because that was the default for EotE before F&D came out with Bind and its Movement upgrade. So there has been a big (32 page long) argument over whether or not Bind's movement upgrade is intended to be the non ranged attack version of Force Push and Force Pull, as we see in canon, and can be used as such, or if Move is the only power to be used as those specific powers. 
 
A second question, while I'm at it. You recently mentioned that to activate the movement upgrade, you do have to pay the base FP cost for Bind before using its Movement upgrade (which I always assumed was true anyway). The question is, after spending that base FP cost, do you always have to actually immobilize the target or does spending the additional FP for the movement upgrade change how the power works so that you're moving the target instead of immobilizing him? 
 
Sam Stewart wrote:

No, you would have to immobilize your target if you spent the points to immobilize your target.


Sam Stewart
RPG Manager
Fantasy Flight Games
 
 

 

So, apparently, yes, you do have to actually activate the immobilize function. However, Narratively, that can mean a lot of things (as it applies to Force Push and Force Pull). It can mean the target is frozen by the Force, it can also mean that  (like Palpatine in RotS) he is now sprawled out oin the floor in a jumbled heap and therefore has to spend time getting to his feet before he can do anything, or as with Kanan's teammates after he Force Pushed them across the chasm, (or Sabine after he Force Pushed her over the spiders, they have to catch their balance or otherwise recover from the uncontrolled landing (or nearly falling off a cliff) before they can do anything. 

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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Tramp, you do realize that Sam just confirmed what we have all been telling you all along right? The reason why people focused on move was because you were arguing that only Bind was appropriate. Most of us have been saying that move and bind can be used in similar ways all along to accomplish force pulls and pushes. Don't mis-characterize us, it's unseemly.

 

Edit: gah! I'm back. Goddammit.

Edited by ghatt

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9 minutes ago, ghatt said:

Tramp, you do realize that Sam just confirmed what we have all been telling you all along right? The reason why people focused on move was because you where arguing that only Bind was appropriate. Most of us have been saying that move and bind can be used in similar ways all along to accomplish force pulls and pushes. Don't mis-characterize us, it's unseemly.

No, I haven't. and no, not all of you have been saying that. In fact, most of you have not said that. Most  of you have claimed that only Move can be used for Force Push and Force Pull no matter what. All I have said is that Bind's Movement upgrade better simulates Force Push and Force Pull. And therefore can (and, IMO, should) be used as such for non- ranged attack purposes, because, as written, Move's base power is slow instead of immediate, yet, almost everyone here has made the claim that only Move can be used for Force Push and Force Pull as if that power is the end-all be-all for Force Push and Force Pull, and that Bind cannot be used for Force Push and Force Pull. Sam Stewart just confirmed what I have maintained, that yes, Bind's movement upgrade does indeed work as Force Push and Force Pull. You are not limited to only using Move no matter what. If you want I can dig through the thread and provide a few quotes. 

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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Tramp, I am piling on here, but seriously, this is the line from Sam that I think really sums up this entire conversation:

"Honestly, I’m not sure what your question is. Does it really matter what Force power you use to shove someone away from you? The end result is the same."

I would gently encourage you to understand that sometimes its ok to say "Yes, I was wrong, thanks for pointing those factors out." It will only help you enjoy this hobby more, especially with the massive PbP game you are trying to get off the ground.

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5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, I haven't. and no, not all of you have been saying that. In fact, most of you have not said that. Most  of you have claimed that only Move can be used for Force Push and Force Pull no matter what. All I have said is that Bind's Movement upgrade better simulates Force Push and Force Pull. and therefore can (and IMO)should) be used as such for non- ranged attack purposes, because, as written, Move's base power is slow instead of immediate, yet, almost everyone here has made the claim that only Move can be used for Force Push and Force Pull as if that power is the end-all be-all for Force Push and Force Pull, and that BInd cannot be used for Force Push and Force Pull. Sam Stewart just confirmed what I have maintained, that yes, Bind's movement upgrade does indeed work as Force Push and Force Pull. You are not limited to only using Move no matter what. 

NM, I'm done. No point in opening myself to repercussions by throwing a juvenile dig your way.

Edited by ghatt
censoring my sarcastic impulses

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6 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, I haven't. and no, not all of you have been saying that. In fact, most of you have not said that. Most  of you have claimed that only Move can be used for Force Push and Force Pull no matter what. All I have said is that Bind's Movement upgrade better simulates Force Push and Force Pull. And therefore can (and, IMO, should) be used as such for non- ranged attack purposes, because, as written, Move's base power is slow instead of immediate, yet, almost everyone here has made the claim that only Move can be used for Force Push and Force Pull as if that power is the end-all be-all for Force Push and Force Pull, and that Bind cannot be used for Force Push and Force Pull. Sam Stewart just confirmed what I have maintained, that yes, Bind's movement upgrade does indeed work as Force Push and Force Pull. You are not limited to only using Move no matter what. If you want I can dig through the thread and provide a few quotes. 

Must... resist... feeding... troll...

Must... resist... feeding... troll...

C'mon 1 green 5 purple disciple check don't fail me now! <sound of shaking dice in background>

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2 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

Tramp, I am piling on here, but seriously, this is the line from Sam that I think really sums up this entire conversation:

"Honestly, I’m not sure what your question is. Does it really matter what Force power you use to shove someone away from you? The end result is the same."

I would gently encourage you to understand that sometimes its ok to say "Yes, I was wrong, thanks for pointing those factors out." It will only help you enjoy this hobby more, especially with the massive PbP game you are trying to get off the ground.

Because I wasn't "wrong". Just the opposite. When several people are saying that you cannot use Bind as Force Push and Force Pull, despite how its Movement upgrade specifically emulates those powers exactly, and Sam goes and confirms that yes you can do so, then those same people should not be coming back and twisting things around as if to say I was trying to force people to use Bind only instead of Move for these abilities. 

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13 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

 When several people are saying that you cannot use Bind as Force Push and Force Pull, despite how its Movement upgrade specifically emulates those powers exactly, and Sam goes and confirms that yes you can do so, then those same people should not be coming back and twisting things around as if to say I was trying to force people to use Bind only instead of Move for these abilities. 

 

Please link the posts where people said that.  

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32 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

 

Please link the posts where people said that.  

Wel, let' see, Richard Buxton started with this: 

On 12/10/2016 at 4:26 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

I think one of the big issues the OP has with Move being used to throw people around, that everyone else seems to ignore is the fact that Bind specifically has an upgrade that is designed to do exactly that. One of Bind's upgrades specifically covers Force Push and Force Pull by allowing you to move a target (or targets) one range band further or closer. Also, Bind does not inherently give you Conflict. 

 

On 12/10/2016 at 4:53 PM, Richardbuxton said:

Bind allows for very slow movement of a bound target, it can only be activated once. So it's great for bringing a bound target with you as you stroll the halls of your Death Star, but it's not for throwing people (or Droids) across a coliseum.

Your correct that Bind doesn't inherently give you Conflict, but in the context of dealing Damage to opponents it absolutely does. The requirement to be able to cause damage is to use at least 1 Dark Side Pip

 Which is exactly the opposite of how Bind's movement upgrade works.

 

Shamblate said this:

On 12/11/2016 at 10:46 AM, Shlambate said:

Bind is Force Choke plain and simple, it can restrain which Move literally cannot, you seem to think these two are the same which they are not. Critical hits can be done with bind and move can do lots of damage, but force push and pull is Move not Bind.

Bind

http://digitalspyuk.cdnds.net/15/51/768x576/gallery-1450434649-darth-vader-does-not-dance.jpg

Move

http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/14/144066/3689872-force+push+monsters.jpg

(emphasis mine)

 

Marcus Arcanus said this: 

On 12/29/2016 at 5:55 PM, Magnus Arcanus said:

 

The timing of Sam's comment is irrelevant. Bind is not force move/push. I am not sure why this is being debated.

 

Perhaps this is a better way to resolve the question though:

 

RAW, how much damage does a target take when Bind is used to push/pull them into an immovable obstacle? What is the difficulty of the skill check to perform this action? Please cite rule wording and page number in your answer.

(emphasis mine)

Daeglan said this: 

On 12/29/2016 at 7:29 PM, Daeglan said:

Move does the exact same thing and the devs say it is force push. What part of the devs tell us force push is move and have never said Bind is force push do you nto understand?. They say move. I am sorry your claim does not hold water given that I have yet to see any any evidence to back up your claim. Show me the devs saying force push is Bind otherwise the devs say move is force push so it is move.

 

(emphasis mine)

I could go on, but I think I've made my point. every one of these people has claimed that Bind is not Force Push and Force Pull, that they are only the perview of Move. Happy Daze has said similar things later on, as the debate progressed.  And these are just from the first nine pages of the thread. 

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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