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Aetrion

[Rules Lawyering] Move cannot be used to throw people.

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One other thing I wanted to add — check the names of the Force powers in question.

Why would you “Bind” something? Would you “bind” a rock? Probably not.

IMO, the purpose of Bind is to stop a sentient being, or something otherwise moving under its own power, from being able to perform some sort of action — Stop a person from firing a blaster, or stop a droid from accessing a computer system, etc….

That might require moving them away from some position or location, but the movement wouldn’t necessarily be the purpose of the action, it would just be a side-effect of preventing from them being able to do whatever it was they were trying to do.

I think this is the primary reason why Bind doesn’t talk about being used on objects (IIRC), whereas Move does — an object by itself doesn’t do anything that would require you to “bind” it in order to stop it from doing something.

Now, you could argue that a grenade would certainly be an object that you might want to stop from exploding, but could Bind be used to contain the explosion? I would seriously doubt that. OTOH, I wouldn’t necessarily complete rule it out, if the player in question was able to convince me.

Anyway, just wanted to add that thought to the conversation.

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Thank you for your thoughts bradknowles.

 

I was thinking about the difference in each power last night.

 

Bind is stopping something, restriction, slowing movement. Bind would always look like the target can't move at all, even when using the upgrade to move the target 1 range band. Like they're in stasis and being floated around.

 

Move is the opposite. it's accelerating something to the point that it travels in a direction. Move is messy; there's no restriction of limbs or other movement, it simply just accelerates the entire mass.

 

Still feels like Move is the more likely candidate for Push/Pulling an NPC and after the most recent 2-parter of Star Wars Rebels, there is in no way that what was used was Bind.

Edited by GroggyGolem

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Aetrion it is difficult to take your posts serious when you use such over the top hyperbole. Are you actually giving game experiences here or are you just theory crafting 'possibilities' in a vacuum, isolated from the realities of the game?

 

Game experiences. Try putting a character with Move in a cage, They immediately go to "I can move things weighing in excess of 1000 tons at Sil 4, and I can rip anything out of secure mountings, so, doors are pointless against me". You have to basically write obstacles just for that character, because all typical notions of what a person can physically overcome go out the window by a factor of 10000.

Edited by Aetrion

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Aetrion it is difficult to take your posts serious when you use such over the top hyperbole. Are you actually giving game experiences here or are you just theory crafting 'possibilities' in a vacuum, isolated from the realities of the game?

 

Game experiences. Try putting a character with Move in a cage, They immediately go to "I can move things weighing in excess of 1000 tons at Sil 4, and I can rip anything out of secure mountings, so, doors are pointless against me". You have to basically write obstacles just for that character, because all typical notions of what a person can and cannot budge go out the window by a factor of 10000.

 

No, more like another frothing-at-the-mouth hyperbole, as it would take a significant invest of XP for a PC to be able to do that on any kind of reliable basis, either by purchasing all those Strength and Control Upgrades (85 XP at base), or buying up their Force Rating to the point that it could be done on a reliable basis without tapping into the dark side.  All so that PC is a glorified door opener.  Congratulations.

 

Meanwhile a starting PC with Cunning 3, Skulduggery 2, possibly a rank in Bypass Security to dispense with at least one setback die (but not required), and at least a set of lock-picking tools (boost die for "right tools for the job") can open many of those same doors simply by picking the lock, and would really only struggle with anything that's at Daunting difficulty or above.  Or if subtlety's being thrown out the window, just use an explosive mine to blow the door, requiring fairly easy Mechanics check, with the only notable cost being credits for the explosives.  Either way, heck of a lot less of a resource requirement, with the Skulduggery approach being far less subtle and not nearly as likely to bring unwanted attention.

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Yes, a move character is nothing more than a glorified door opener. Doesn't do anything else. Not a thing. Everyone who disagrees is frothing at the mouth. 

i find it interesting here you say they can waltz through anything and yet in another thread you talk about needing to have different kinds of challenges to challenge high XP characters...Which to do the things you claim reliably requires high xp...Maybe you should implement your own advice...

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I actually play a character with a 4 force rating now 4 discipline 4 Willpower and move.

I do not regularly make other players feel helpless in the face of my power.

This. This right here.  As I pointed out about 12 pages ago, it doesn't really matter how ridiculous a power appears in the book.  What matters is how it plays at the table.  And of course, I asked Aetrion if this was a problem he was actually experiencing, or if he was just anticipating these crazy shenanigans, with no real response.  Also noted was that we have a whole mess of folks here, using Move against people as the power is clearly intended, with not a lot of balance issues, over the last several years. I have yet to see a single GM saying, "Guys, the Move power has gotten way out of hand in my game!"

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Yes, a move character is nothing more than a glorified door opener.

You cited a specific example of how Move was allegedly overpowered, and I countered with examples from actual play where a non Force using PC was able to overcome that same obstacle with far less of a resource investment that had the same end result of bypassing an obstacle put in front of them.

 

Every post I've seen from you has been some version of crying wolf about how Force users are so insanely broken, with nothing of actual substance.  People with far more patience than I have tried to engage you in conversation about this, but your responses can be summarized as sticking your fingers in your ears and making nonsense noises to try and drown out their response.

 

At this point, I'm starting to doubt you've actually run anything in this system, as you have yet come up with an actual concrete example from actual game play of how Force users are actually overpowered.  Every single hypothetical you came up with has been shot full of holes, in many instances by character builds that weren't Force users and built with much less XP, not that you've bothered to intelligently respond to them.

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i find it interesting here you say they can waltz through anything and yet in another thread you talk about needing to have different kinds of challenges to challenge high XP characters...Which to do the things you claim reliably requires high xp...Maybe you should implement your own advice...

 

Move is NOT an extreme XP aberration, it's one of the cheapest force powers in the game, both XP wise and in activation cost. Sure, if you're playing a game of extremely high level characters where people have implants and jetpacks and crazy weapons half a dozen force dice and so forth Move eventually doesn't stand out so much anymore, but stop pretending that there is any other force power that even does half as much for the same investment.

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I've opened doors with move. I have never torn them off the hinges thats conflict destruction of property kind of thing.

I use fine manipulation to work the lock. Pull to grab the keys. Influence to convince the guard to open the cell.

 

Now the really funny part about using move to bust out of a cage with brute force is the shrapnel it would create, the time it would take or well the fact that your inside the cage and generally the contents won't do so well when you slam it into something. Also why would it be something they could break?  When the Empire typically captures Jedi they stick them in places that use force fields emitted from things they can't easily find. Or place the nice metal cube inside a vacuum chamber, use laser beams surrounding the room so you will get ginzued if you move.

 

Make the cage out of Star Destroyer armor in a single piece. Use a camera and electrify it when ever he tries to do anything.

Hell put an explosive collar around his neck and drug him.

 

You sir lack imagination.

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Honestly I think Enhance is the best power in the game, success where you should have failed on 6 different skills, improved luck otherwise. increase 2 of the most important combat characteristics when needed. And finally ignore difficult terrain or vertical encounters. It's a beast of a Force Power. The best but is most of the uses are very difficult to even see as Force use to anyone other than other Force Users.

Move is obvious in all but the smallest of situations, everyone knows you did impossible magic that will net them a huge bounty if they are responsible for your capture. So you need to ensure no witnesses... hmm Conflict in your future I see.

Edited by Richardbuxton

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i find it interesting here you say they can waltz through anything and yet in another thread you talk about needing to have different kinds of challenges to challenge high XP characters...Which to do the things you claim reliably requires high xp...Maybe you should implement your own advice...

 

Move is NOT an extreme XP aberration, it's one of the cheapest force powers in the game, both XP wise and in activation cost. Sure, if you're playing a game of extremely high level characters where people have implants and jetpacks and crazy weapons half a dozen force dice and so forth Move eventually doesn't stand out so much anymore, but stop pretending that there is any other force power that even does half as much for the same investment.

And yet you need a fairly big investment to pull off the stuff you worry about. And you still have not answered the question of is this theoretical stuff or problems you actually have. Also you handle move the same way you handle high xp.

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Enhance is definitely up there in the best force powers in the game, no doubt about that, and also extremely cheap to learn. However, enhance doesn't really contain anything you can't do with a non force character. Even Force Jump is mechanically available to muggles if they can get their hands on the Freerunning talent.

 

Enhance tends to be a really nice boost to any character that has it, but it doesn't really let you do anything absolutely crazy. 

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And yet you need a fairly big investment to pull off the stuff you worry about. And you still have not answered the question of is this theoretical stuff or problems you actually have. Also you handle move the same way you handle high xp.

 

Yes, move is causing problems. No, the investment isn't so high that you can ignore it, because you don't need to absolutely max move for it to be crazy, and no, you can't handle it the same way you can handle high XP parties, because it's just one character doing it, the rest of the people might still want to roll some dice. 

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And yet you need a fairly big investment to pull off the stuff you worry about. And you still have not answered the question of is this theoretical stuff or problems you actually have. Also you handle move the same way you handle high xp.

 

Yes, move is causing problems. No, the investment isn't so high that you can ignore it, because you don't need to absolutely max move for it to be crazy, and no, you can't handle it the same way you can handle high XP parties, because it's just one character doing it, the rest of the people might still want to roll some dice.

Ummm if you can't handle move because it is a I win button you are not being very imaginative. So yes you handle exactly the same way you handle high xp. Not every problem can be handled with move.if your pcs are then you are not presenting problems that cant.

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I thought so too that the Move is great, until i started playing, and i saw the cost of things and how slowly i was advancing. Suddenly sinking a whole load of XP into this 1 "shtick" wasn't on the top of my priorities.

So once you "taste" the game and it's pace, you suddenly see how the gears fit into place (And why they haven't changed it nor needed to).

 

This is such nonsense and i think some people use it to increase their post count or something, don't know what for.

Edited by Metushelah

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No system is perfect, and you can generally tell what parts are most broken by what draws the most common complaints.  For the FFG system, you can use this to note that most people find problem with starfighter combat, vehicle storage, and autofire (particularly it's interaction with Jury Rig) because of the frequency and regularity with which those topics come up, and the sheer amount of people on this board (a rather dogmatic one when it comes to houseruling) who will advocate tweaking those rules.

 

You'll note that most people don't feel the same way about Move.

 

In any case, Aetrion, I'll pose to you the same challenge I always have: make the character you're so afraid of.  Use http://swsheets.com/c to post it (and mention how much XP you spent to build him/her), and list 3 things that this character can do that is so horribly broken.  Honestly, at this point I'm not really expecting you to do it, but it'd be a nice surprise.

Edited by Benjan Meruna

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Ummm if you can't handle move because it is a I win button you are not being very imaginative. So yes you handle exactly the same way you handle high xp. Not every problem can be handled with move.if your pcs are then you are not presenting problems that cant.

 

There is a huge difference between not being able think of obstacles for people with move and not wanting to be shut out from using all the various obstacles that are entirely too easy to overcome for them.

 

Any adventure you want to set in a wilderness with extreme terrain, in ancient ruins or abandoned ships or facilities easily becomes trivial to deal with when you can simply move any terrain feature that's obstructing your progress. Cave-ins, blast doors, forcefields, walls, steep climbs, deadly drops, balance beams, narrow openings, all of these things are pretty much no longer interesting obstacles in your adventure unless you want Move to solve all of them. Just creating a standard "Find two keys to open one door" scenario to compel the party to explore a space and find story clues and run into enemies now requires a door that's somehow immune to simply being moved out of the way. When Luke falls into the Rancor pit and can't escape because of a simple barred door the entire scene would break if Luke had just 50 XP worth of Move and could roll two force pips. He doesn't even need magnitude or range to affect the door, so just basic activation + strength to get past it. This isn't a stupid unimaginative scene in a badly written movie, this is the source material this entire game is based on, and it would have been screwed up by FFGs interpretation of Move. 

 

Any adventure where moving a heavy object that requires multiple people to lift is part of the challenge suddenly becomes easy unless you make it so big that it can't be moved at all without Move or a vehicle. So Crates of Krayts for example immediately goes from a two person job to move the dragon crate to a one person job, and you need to houserule the distance Move can move the crate in one turn to stop it from also going from a 5 turn task to a 2 turn task. The thing is, this isn't a stupid encounter that should just be written better to accommodate Force users, it's actually a really well thought out encounter that forces the party to make a call between fighting or just hauling ass out of there under normal circumstances. This kind of mechanic simply can't be used to the same effect with Move in play.

 

What also gets a whole lot harder to pull off is using a "How do we get there?" narrative device. You can't put the thing the players are after on a pedestal across a chasm or something like that because then they just use Move to grab it unless you put it so far away they wouldn't be able to really see it in the first place. Of course you don't need to do do this, but as a narrative device it's great to be able to have the goal clearly visible and established and then have the players try to figure out how to get to it. When you have a power that simply lets you skip that entire part though giving the players a glimpse of what they are after just doesn't work unless it's through a camera. Of course there are other methods for players to bypass obstacles that should let them see the goal before they can reach it, but none that are anywhere near as easy to use and difficult to thwart.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is: Just because I can think of a thousand ways to shut down a certain power doesn't mean it's good DMing to always block someone's character. If Move had more reasonable limitations there wouldn't be any issue with just letting people use it all the time. If the DM has to go out of their way to prevent a power from being overused though then there is a problem with the power, not necessarily the player wanting to use it. 

 

 

In any case, Aetrion, I'll pose to you the same challenge I always have: make the character you're so afraid of.  Use http://swsheets.com/c to post it (and mention how much XP you spent to build him/her), and list 3 things that this character can do that is so horribly broken.  Honestly, at this point I'm not really expecting you to do it, but it'd be a nice surprise.

 
You need to provide me with the exact standard of evidence it would take to convince you before I will spend my time trying to prove a matter of opinion. Unless you're willing to do that I'm just going to assume you're going to disagree no matter what I come up with.
Edited by Aetrion

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Any adventure where moving a heavy object that requires multiple people to lift is part of the challenge suddenly becomes easy unless you make it so big that it can't be moved at all without Move or a vehicle.

 

And any jammed door that requires multiple people to open it as part of the challenge suddenly becomes easy with a Mechanics check, what's your point?

 

 

In any case, Aetrion, I'll pose to you the same challenge I always have: make the character you're so afraid of.  Use http://swsheets.com/c to post it (and mention how much XP you spent to build him/her), and list 3 things that this character can do that is so horribly broken.  Honestly, at this point I'm not really expecting you to do it, but it'd be a nice surprise.

 
You need to provide me with the exact standard of evidence it would take to convince you before I will spend my time trying to prove a matter of opinion. Unless you're willing to do that I'm just going to assume you're going to disagree no matter what I come up with.

 

And you're the one telling us that this Force Ubermensch totally exists.  Yes, whatever you post will absolutely be proven to not be overpowered, because you're flat out wrong.  The that that you can't come up with an example is the proof that you're wrong.  If there actually was an example of an overpowered Force User that was totally out of whack with characters at the same amount of XP, you'd have posted it 17 pages ago.

 

Edit: to make this explicitly clear: the standard of evidence is you providing a character (not a character concept, a 100% legitimately built and ready-to-play character) that is flat out better than any other character because of Move abuse.

Edited by Benjan Meruna

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And any jammed door that requires multiple people to open it as part of the challenge suddenly becomes easy with a Mechanics check, what's your point?

 

A mechanics check is specific to certain types of obstacles, so I can design an adventure that requires different kinds of checks in different parts of the adventure to advance. Yes, mechanics does a lot, but if I want something to not be affected by it I just make it an object that isn't mechanical, or has access to it's mechanical components. With Move the only limitation is silhouette, with some rare exceptions where things are actually protected from the force by some kind of vergence.

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And any jammed door that requires multiple people to open it as part of the challenge suddenly becomes easy with a Mechanics check, what's your point?

 

A mechanics check is specific to certain types of obstacles, so I can design an adventure that requires different kinds of checks in different parts of the adventure to advance. Yes, mechanics does a lot, but if I want something to not be affected by it I just make it an object that isn't mechanical, or has access to it's mechanical components. With Move the only limitation is silhouette, with some rare exceptions where things are actually protected from the force by some kind of vergence.

 

 

 

Silhouette is the base difficulty, you should be thinking of ways to rain setback down upon someone.  Literal rain (or some other environmental modifier) might add one or two, being in a hurry (those bad guys are gonna be here soon!) could add another.  Not every problem can be solved by a hammer, and as a GM it's your job to ensure that sometimes the hammer just won't cut it this time.

 

Of course, it's a bit moot anyways.  By the time the Force user has the 3-4 FR to consistantly make these checks, everyone else in the party can solve the challenge 3 different ways.   Sure, you can Move that door.  Or the other guy can mechanics check it. No access to parts?  That's OK, he's a slicer too.  Oh, no computer?  Welp, guess we're going loud, good thing he's also a demo guy.  Explosives won't work either?  Then just how were you expecting us to open this door without Move, GM?

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So the Move basic power, with a single Strength Upgrade, which can lift a target and relocate them directly toward or away from you without causing any damage isn't Force Push/Pull? But the Bind power is?

Really the answer is they both can be. If your deciding between the two it just depends on what other ways you want to be able to use the power as to which you choose.

the Base Move power with a single Strength upgrade, is a slow moving of an object or individual. The Bind upgrade is an immediate push or pull of an object at speed. It's a fast push or yank, not a slow movement. 

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Given what just happened in Rebels, I am further convinced that Move is the push/pull power.

 

Kanan used it to just push Ezra (he did not pick him up and toss him, Ezra jumped and Kanan pushed him) to a platform at least long range away. We've seen a smaller version of this when he and Ezra slingshotted each other down corridors in season 2.

 

He also used what had to be Move to lift what looked like a Silhouette 3 rock bridge and put it in place for people to move across. It was only after having to hold it in place for what I'm guessing was a few minutes that Kanan started struggling... He lifted it and moved it with seemingly no effort at first (the struggle he had being a narrative explanation of the strain he started to take per round that he kept this object suspended, per the sidebar rules on Move). This makes me feel like if he needed to, he could move an even larger object just for a shorter period of time.

 

Also, he made a single jump to the same area he pushed Ezra to. I'm gonna figure that's a narrative explanation of using the leap power 2-3 times.

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Given what just happened in Rebels, I am further convinced that Move is the push/pull power.

 

Kanan used it to just push Ezra (he did not pick him up and toss him, Ezra jumped and Kanan pushed him) to a platform at least long range away. We've seen a smaller version of this when he and Ezra slingshotted each other down corridors in season 2.

 

He also used what had to be Move to lift what looked like a Silhouette 3 rock bridge and put it in place for people to move across. It was only after having to hold it in place for what I'm guessing was a few minutes that Kanan started struggling... He lifted it and moved it with seemingly no effort at first (the struggle he had being a narrative explanation of the strain he started to take per round that he kept this object suspended, per the sidebar rules on Move). This makes me feel like if he needed to, he could move an even larger object just for a shorter period of time.

 

Also, he made a single jump to the same area he pushed Ezra to. I'm gonna figure that's a narrative explanation of using the leap power 2-3 times.

On that last one, I'd say the distance between where Kanan started and where he ended was medium range (which can extend out to several dozen meters), and that being an experienced Jedi he had the Range upgrade, allowing him to make the leap has a single action.  Ezra probably didn't have the Range upgrade, so he needed the boost from Kanan to get across.

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That seemed a lot farther than Medium range. Maybe the very edge of Medium range if so. Still, if you take the appropriate maneuver/actions and strain, then I see no reason not to allow your players to narrate that they leaped the entire distance in 1 go.

Edited by GroggyGolem

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