Deliberately warping the local meta

[nigeltastic 3,808]

I really don't get why everyone is over interpreting this thread.

Probably because they are looking for a way to turn it into a discussion so they're giving their tangentially related opinions. Just reporting 'hey we did this thing locally' isn't much of a discussion starter without some extrapolation.

[Stu35 723]

I really don't get why everyone is over interpreting this thread.

Probably because they are looking for a way to turn it into a discussion so they're giving their tangentially related opinions. Just reporting 'hey we did this thing locally' isn't much of a discussion starter without some extrapolation.

OP: we did a thing that wasn't meta

Others: lolz u suk, git good n00b.

/thread.

[ficklegreendice 33,837]

 

I really don't get all of this complaining about the state of the game.

 

 

Really dont get the dislike for meta builds

 

Hi everyone, I ran an experiment with our local gaming group, and was pleasantly surprised by the results. <> food for thought.

I really don't get why everyone is over interpreting this thread.

 

maybe because the things banned are the most commonly used in the competitive scene

 

i.e, "the meta"

[Admiral Deathrain 5,221]

I believe restricting 'card' pool can be very interesting for squadbuilding. I had the idea for a rotation model some time ago, I'd love to try that. Like:

 

• Core sets are always availiable in their entirety
• So is wave 1 and all pilots for all ships
• Everything else after a certain cutoff (you choose how many of the recent waves you want) becomes illegal (maybe exclude fix cards from this) is illegal to use
• Note that cards legality depends on wether or not they were printed in the legal timeframe, not on their initial release

That would mean no EU, no PTL and depending on how far you go, a very different game. Might be very interesting to only use the latest wave when one releases so you have room to really explore all of the upgrades - maybe for a release tournament!

[Blail Blerg 6,716]

Hi everyone, I ran an experiment with our local gaming group, and was pleasantly surprised by the results. I am going to test this on a larger scale in the coming weeks with more players, but it really had a profoundly positive effect on our games.

We banned large ships, x7 titles, autothrusters, TLTs and zuckuss. The result was a surprisingly light, fast but still complex game where squads on the whole seemed broadly even, but most of all, it was really REALLY fun. It was the removal of the multiple daisy-chaining effects you see from the large ships that seemed to do the most for the game, and the broad neutering of most turrets back down to r2.

I'm not advocating there be this kind of change to the competitive meta, but if anyone is growing bored of the game and wishes it were a little different locally, I'd suggest giving this a go.

I like large ships enough, but I think I only like some of them, others just make some of the really fun small ships never see the light of day. It wasn't that the large ships were the issue, a lot of small ships became a lot more powerful with large ships to balance out their weaknesses. In the above format, high PS aces were good, but there was nothing to tip them over the edge, especially without autothrusters.

food for thought.

Sounds good.  And I always thought that the large ship single-ship-synergy stuff was really a little too strong.

[Astech 1,540]

As a competitive player - and one that wins tournaments - I can say that the first two things I think when I see Triple Jumpmasters or a Palpmobile are:

 

1. Coward. Stop bringing 'cheap' lists just to give you a slight edge.

2. I didn't bring an exact counter to this specific list. By default, I will probably lose.

 

I've won four tournaments (and placed highly in all others) recently, and every single time I've done it with my own list, not even going online to look for better ways to do things. Sure, you can win against net lists with non-net lists, but its both harder and less enjoyable. If I face essentially same 2 lists 4 games in a row, it gets stale.

 

I'm all for a direct nerf to certain ships, either through errata or card bans. Imperial and scum are currently in a state of cold war, where both sides are continuously being given absurdly powerful cards (zuckuss, palpatine, 4-lom, Dengar) with Rebels being left in the dust.

[Goseki1 620]

What were some of your winning lists?

[mxlm 902]

The one time my group experimented with banning cards, we banned like 15 upgrades. And since it was Wave 8, people were focused on things like thrusters and Zuckuss and FCS. And so nobody banned 3-P0. And so someone brought back double Falcons, which was seriously unpleasant to deal with and convinced me that, no, actually, let's just play without restrictions.

 

Honestly, if you want to warp the local meta? Practice a list that has a favorable matchup v whatever is currently annoying you. Memorably, when TLTs hit some newer players started using them...and were promptly torn apart by veterans runnings lists that "should" have lost to TLTs (RAC). And so people stopped using quad TLTs, and everything was wonderful. 

[StevenO 2,996]

I believe restricting 'card' pool can be very interesting for squadbuilding. I had the idea for a rotation model some time ago, I'd love to try that. Like:

 

• Core sets are always availiable in their entirety
• So is wave 1 and all pilots for all ships
• Everything else after a certain cutoff (you choose how many of the recent waves you want) becomes illegal (maybe exclude fix cards from this) is illegal to use
• Note that cards legality depends on wether or not they were printed in the legal timeframe, not on their initial release

That would mean no EU, no PTL and depending on how far you go, a very different game. Might be very interesting to only use the latest wave when one releases so you have room to really explore all of the upgrades - maybe for a release tournament!

 

So your cutoff is taking away older ships and upgrades EXCEPT for Wave 1, or are you effectively looking at taking the meta back to a point before a given wave was release?

If you cut out old stuff then "fix card" don't do much as so many of those are released after the ship they are fixing initially was.  Of course most fixes include what they are trying to fix making it legal anyway.

I'm not sure what you're doing with upgrades be a good many get released in multiple expansions that may be many waves appart.

[Astech 1,540]

I've won with:

 

Keyan Farlander (HLC, Opportunist)

Horton Salm (TLT)

Biggs (R2  + Integrated)

 

Corran (PTL, Sensors, R2-D2)

Miranda (TLT)

Blue Squadron B-wing.

 

Wild Space Fringer (Mangler, Outrider)

Red Squadron Veteran (Crack shot, autothrusters)

Something else.

 

And most recently (yesterday) I played in a 125 pt tournament, where most other players flew 2-3 large base ships (In one game I went up against 3 decimators - and won!)

 

The list I brought was:

 

Corran Horn (42)

R2-D2

Fire Control System

Veteran Instincts

Stealth Device

 

Miranda Doni (44)

TLT

Homing Missiles

Rey

Extra Munitons

Guidance Chips

 

Nien Numb (36)

Stay On Target

Targeting Astromech

Vectored Thrusters

Black One

 

I came in second place, having been defeated only by a ridiculous 3 tractor beam defender + palpmobile list with crazy good rolls (I had Corran on full health, got killed by two Defender shots without modifiers in a single turn). I ended up coming in second with the defender player placing third though, as I had higher MoV.

 

Additionally, I'm one of the least experienced players in my area (1 year and counting) with a limited budget (no triple jumpmasters for me...). You can - and will - win against the meta lists by virtue of unpredictable and unprecedented lists like mine above. I think banning the go-to lists for a while doesn't necessarily shake up the meta once you return those cards, but it shows players that there are other winning lists.

[Admiral Deathrain 5,221]

 

I believe restricting 'card' pool can be very interesting for squadbuilding. I had the idea for a rotation model some time ago, I'd love to try that. Like:

 

• Core sets are always availiable in their entirety
• So is wave 1 and all pilots for all ships
• Everything else after a certain cutoff (you choose how many of the recent waves you want) becomes illegal (maybe exclude fix cards from this) is illegal to use
• Note that cards legality depends on wether or not they were printed in the legal timeframe, not on their initial release

That would mean no EU, no PTL and depending on how far you go, a very different game. Might be very interesting to only use the latest wave when one releases so you have room to really explore all of the upgrades - maybe for a release tournament!

 

So your cutoff is taking away older ships and upgrades EXCEPT for Wave 1, or are you effectively looking at taking the meta back to a point before a given wave was release?

If you cut out old stuff then "fix card" don't do much as so many of those are released after the ship they are fixing initially was.  Of course most fixes include what they are trying to fix making it legal anyway.

I'm not sure what you're doing with upgrades be a good many get released in multiple expansions that may be many waves appart.

 

I am only looking to ban upgrades, as I believe it is foolish to ban ships. The first ships you would lose would be the ones from the actual movies! That doesn't work with X-Wing. Wave 1 upgrades stay because there needs to be turrets (otherwise the HWK is dead weight) and Ion Cannon Turret is a very balanced one. Same goes for missiles. You could modify the format further to have one basic upgrade for every slot always availiable, too.

[Dwing 1,900]

Whenever someone puts a Ghost and Dash on the table, you just know you are in for a borring game, where one part does not care about actions, red moves, rocks etc. Sooo borring.

[Hujoe Bigs 2,063]

I never said get gud, I said restricting cards hurts the game and in turn the players. If you honestly wanna try something that shakes it up, increase the points before reducing options.

If you honestly think I had any intention of saying get gud, this is where that "whoosh" comment should be used. But because I'm not 5, I'm willing to explain myself.

[Darth Meanie 12,776]

 

 

I really don't get why everyone is over interpreting this thread.

Probably because they are looking for a way to turn it into a discussion so they're giving their tangentially related opinions. Just reporting 'hey we did this thing locally' isn't much of a discussion starter without some extrapolation.

OP: we did a thing that wasn't meta

Others: lolz u suk, git good n00b.

/thread.

 

I asked for this once before, and was shouted down, but I really think these forums could used an EPIC PLAY sub-forum where people post ideas for fun, perhaps completely imbalanced, play.

 

Then, threads like this could happen out of sight and without getting **** stomped by the tourney crowd.

[Hujoe Bigs 2,063]

Then, threads like this could happen out of sight and without getting **** stomped by the tourney crowd.

If this is "getting stomped" I fear for the rest of your life. No one has been aggressive, but pointed out why it's a bad idea. Nothing wrong with stating an opinion against anothers opinion.

[General Mayhem 178]

I've won with:

 

Keyan Farlander (HLC, Opportunist)

Horton Salm (TLT)

Biggs (R2  + Integrated)

 

Corran (PTL, Sensors, R2-D2)

Miranda (TLT)

Blue Squadron B-wing.

 

Wild Space Fringer (Mangler, Outrider)

Red Squadron Veteran (Crack shot, autothrusters)

Something else.

 

And most recently (yesterday) I played in a 125 pt tournament, where most other players flew 2-3 large base ships (In one game I went up against 3 decimators - and won!)

 

The list I brought was:

 

Corran Horn (42)

R2-D2

Fire Control System

Veteran Instincts

Stealth Device

 

Miranda Doni (44)

TLT

Homing Missiles

Rey

Extra Munitons

Guidance Chips

 

Nien Numb (36)

Stay On Target

Targeting Astromech

Vectored Thrusters

Black One

 

I came in second place, having been defeated only by a ridiculous 3 tractor beam defender + palpmobile list with crazy good rolls (I had Corran on full health, got killed by two Defender shots without modifiers in a single turn). I ended up coming in second with the defender player placing third though, as I had higher MoV.

 

Additionally, I'm one of the least experienced players in my area (1 year and counting) with a limited budget (no triple jumpmasters for me...). You can - and will - win against the meta lists by virtue of unpredictable and unprecedented lists like mine above. I think banning the go-to lists for a while doesn't necessarily shake up the meta once you return those cards, but it shows players that there are other winning lists.

I ran  Quickdraw, Backdraft and Ryad against a Lothal Rebel and a Miranda list. I wanted to use the 2 SF's to see if all the negativity surrounding them was justified. My opponent is a bit better than I am. We played 2 games. First one he beat me. Rolling nine straight blanks on the greens doesn't help the First Order much. Second game , I crushed him while rolling average rolls on my side. He later admitted that he didn't know how to attack my formation as he never faced any SF's before. A surprise or two can help to even up the odds.

[Darth Meanie 12,776]

 

Then, threads like this could happen out of sight and without getting **** stomped by the tourney crowd.

If this is "getting stomped" I fear for the rest of your life.

That's soooo sweet  

Edited December 5, 2016 by Darth Meanie

[Hujoe Bigs 2,063]

That's soooo sweet  

And with that, I know now how much I expect you to comprehend. Take it how you will, but if you think everything is a personal attack, I know some colleges with a space for you.

[EastCoast 1,349]

FWIW, I've gone back to Wave III and prior almost exclusively (Only sneaking in Rebel Aces, no Tantive upgrades).

 

I just like the flow and simplicity of the game better. Nearly every ship (with the exception of Fel's Wrath) is viable. I'm sharing this not as a shot at those who like the current meta and/or game state. I'm sharing this because X-Wing was becoming a game that was seeing diminishing table time for me.  I hope this helps somebody else who may be looking to get out of the game.

 

Taking the game back to a time when I was absolutely enamored with the game worked for me. It sounds pretty close to what the OP had done, and he was sharing something that worked for his group. Nothing wrong with that.

 

Though objectively this game has gotten more advanced and certainly requires a much higher skillcap now, on a subjective basis I'm not convinced it's a better game than it was in 2013.

 

YMMV

[Rodent Mastermind 2,056]

TBH I have no issue with warping the meta.... But here is the thing... SOMEONE will not be happy.

 

For example if I was a Scum player (which I am) having all large ships removed would be a nightmare, I may not complain directly about it, but I'm sure I would be a bit miffed I couldn't use my ships.

 

Someone will always be left behind. 

 

So if I was to do this kind of thing, and actually I do think it's good to shake up things and have people try out new combinations etc. I would rotate the changes. So everyone gets a chance to shine, and if it doesn't suit 1 or 2 players they know that next month your group will be doing something different.

 

If I had a regular group (I mostly play around friends houses, or with a mixture of different groups) one I would love to try is get everyone in the group to vote for the 3 worse ships in each faction.... Then have 3 or 4 weeks where you have to slot 1 of these 3 ships into every list you field. That would get people to start thinking about how to get Guri to work, or how to fly a Kihraxz, or what cool things you could do with a Punisher.

[heychadwick 10,989]

TBH I have no issue with warping the meta.... But here is the thing... SOMEONE will not be happy.

 

 

I would have to say that I'm OK with not everyone being happy.  You can't make everyone happy.  If you ran tournaments without restrictions, there would be people unhappy.  If you ran them with different restrictions, there would be people unhappy.

 

All I can say is if you don't like the restrictions, but like the idea, then come up with your own.  Or...if the OP does this for a while, then maybe he shakes up the restrictions so that people don't find the niche ships that break it.  Constantly shaking it all up seems kind of interesting to me.  

 

I like the idea of having an event where people can just bring oddball stuff to try out.  

[Wildhorn 453]

Hi everyone, I ran an experiment with our local gaming group, and was pleasantly surprised by the results. I am going to test this on a larger scale in the coming weeks with more players, but it really had a profoundly positive effect on our games.

We banned large ships, x7 titles, autothrusters, TLTs and zuckuss. The result was a surprisingly light, fast but still complex game where squads on the whole seemed broadly even, but most of all, it was really REALLY fun. It was the removal of the multiple daisy-chaining effects you see from the large ships that seemed to do the most for the game, and the broad neutering of most turrets back down to r2.

I'm not advocating there be this kind of change to the competitive meta, but if anyone is growing bored of the game and wishes it were a little different locally, I'd suggest giving this a go.

I like large ships enough, but I think I only like some of them, others just make some of the really fun small ships never see the light of day. It wasn't that the large ships were the issue, a lot of small ships became a lot more powerful with large ships to balance out their weaknesses. In the above format, high PS aces were good, but there was nothing to tip them over the edge, especially without autothrusters.

food for thought.

You just created the perfect ground for a total 4BZ domination.

[VanorDM 11,599]

I would have to say that I'm OK with not everyone being happy.

That depends on if they can play somewhere/sometime time else without those restrictions. I play at my LGS every other week, (the other weeks we play either Imperial Assault or Armada) so if we were to put restrictions in that I didn't like I wouldn't really have any other options. So does that mean I just lose out for the sake of someone else?

Tournaments are optional if someone doesn't want to play in them they they don't have to. But for some of us we only have one LGS and only one group to play X-Wing with.

But if everyone is ok with the changes and enjoys the game then I don't see the issue. It's really nothing more than a house rule.