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Deliberately warping the local meta

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Hi everyone, I ran an experiment with our local gaming group, and was pleasantly surprised by the results. I am going to test this on a larger scale in the coming weeks with more players, but it really had a profoundly positive effect on our games.

We banned large ships, x7 titles, autothrusters, TLTs and zuckuss. The result was a surprisingly light, fast but still complex game where squads on the whole seemed broadly even, but most of all, it was really REALLY fun. It was the removal of the multiple daisy-chaining effects you see from the large ships that seemed to do the most for the game, and the broad neutering of most turrets back down to r2.

I'm not advocating there be this kind of change to the competitive meta, but if anyone is growing bored of the game and wishes it were a little different locally, I'd suggest giving this a go.

I like large ships enough, but I think I only like some of them, others just make some of the really fun small ships never see the light of day. It wasn't that the large ships were the issue, a lot of small ships became a lot more powerful with large ships to balance out their weaknesses. In the above format, high PS aces were good, but there was nothing to tip them over the edge, especially without autothrusters.

food for thought.

Edited by citruscannon

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Thanks - I tend to agree. 

 

I've been saying for a while that the game is missing - or has lost - the most fun element. The dog fight. Right now everyone is searching for the next Dengaroo - a Frankenstein conglomeration of pilot skills, upgrades and unintended synergy. Which means the big ship and/or turret meta. 

 

Where Deadeye scouts drove out Rebel squads, large base turret ships have driven out smaller ships. 

Edited by Imperial Mike

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You take out the large ships and their relatively common PWT and TLT I'm not sure you really need to ban Autothrusters as you've already eliminated a big part of the reason AT get used already.  Cutting the x7 and Zuckuss just takes you back a little ways.

 

To be honest, just saying no to the large ships, and maybe the new hotness of x7, will do the most to shake up a metagame.  Some of your bans just take you back to certain points before their release but banning large ships takes you all the way back to the beginning as large ships have had their influence on the metagame since wave 2.  If given time to develop I really see your new metagame going Aces with a small chance of swarms.

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I hope this style of play catches on. I prefer to fly small ships and am always getting Zuckussed or Palped. When I'm up against other small ships, I do a lot better and even though I lose a lot of games I'll still have fun.

 

As with many things, we just need to give it a name that can catch on, like "Tonight we're playing No Fat Ships," "Who's up for a Crutchless game?" or "I used to fly Bossk, but now I'm Fat Free".

 

Not the best names for it, but it's a starting point.

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Get better instead of banning cards. That is lame.

 

 

 

*wooooooooosh*

 

That is the sound of you missing the point entirely.

 

 

By the sounds of it, their issue wasn't getting beaten by meta lists, the issue is they weren't having much fun with them.

 

And if the whole group likes to take part in that experiment, there is nothing wrong with it!

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God, this meta is just phantoms, huh? Remember when that was the boogie man of the day?

That's quite literally a breeding ground for that, and only that. People think taking stuff out shakes up the meta. No. It doesn't. You are literally limiting the meta even more then you had before. As some have said, taking scum large ships out, hurts them a lot. They only have a few small ships right now, and a few of them need love.

If you want to shake up the meta, don't restrict things. I can tell you right now, at least one person in that group is saying it's cool, but isn't having a good time. I know some people that wanted to play defenders for the longest time, and if we implemented what was suggested, yes they can still go /D, but that just limits the type of builds for the rest of the list. While /D's are fun, they rarely are the better choice. You still have PtL Fel which is still amazingly tanky and will out fly any small ship just about, not only that but he can just switch out AT for TC.

You say you removed the Daisy chaining of stuff yet most of the Daisy chain combos are smaller ships. I suggest trying out a BB8/PtL/EU/Kanan Norra, that's more interactions than most large ships hope to shake a stick at.

Quite frank if anything it sounds like you want the game to be slower, but it isn't when you do all this. You just have taken away options for some people.

If you wanna shake the meta up, start showing people that you don't need to netlist to have a good list. It's one thing I'm thankful for in my area. We might ask each other for input, but very rarely do we see just the new hotness. Mostly because one person always shows up with a list to nueter it.

Edited by Hujoe Bigs

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God, this meta is just phantoms, huh? Remember when that was the boogie man of the day?

That's quite literally a breeding ground for that, and only that. People think taking stuff out shakes up the meta. No. It doesn't. You are literally limiting the meta even more then you had before. As some have said, taking scum large ships out, hurts them a lot. They only have a few small ships right now, and a few of them need love.

If you want to shake up the meta, don't restrict things. I can tell you right now, at least one person in that group is saying it's cool, but isn't having a good time. I know some people that wanted to play defenders for the longest time, and if we implemented what was suggested, yes they can still go /D, but that just limits the type of builds for the rest of the list. While /D's are fun, they rarely are the better choice. You still have PtL Fel which is still amazingly tanky and will out fly any small ship just about, not only that but he can just switch out AT for TC.

You say you removed the Daisy chaining of stuff yet most of the Daisy chain combos are smaller ships. I suggest trying out a BB8/PtL/EU/Kanan Korea, that's more interactions than most large ships hope to shake a stick at.

Quite frank if anything it sounds like you want the game to be slower, but it isn't when you do all this. You just have taken away options for some people.

If you wanna shake the meta up, start showing people that you don't need to netlist to have a good list. It's one thing I'm thankful for in my area. We might ask each other for input, but very rarely do we see just the new hotness. Mostly because one person always shows up with a list to nueter it.

Well said sir. You hit my philosophy right on the head. Who cares if you don't bring a netlist? Fly what you are good with and take something unexpected. This gives you 2 big advantages.

1. If you take something unexpected you will run into opponesnts that do not know how to deal with the list/ships.

2. Because you are flying less optimal ships it requires a large amount of skill and intimate knowledge of the list. Compared to someone who just takes the new hotness cause it is good.

For instance I have stomped Palp Aces, Swarms, and Regen with 2 Scyks and a Boba Firespray. Why? Because the effectiveness of 'low tier' ships surprised my oppnents.

So the jist of this is as follows. Don't feel the need to ban things just to have a good time. Learn to fly something 'out there' and surprise someone. The facial expressions are always worth it.

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originally would have agreed and thought that taking cards out was a fundamentally bad way to shake things up. I was just rather surprised that it really didn't seem to restrict things one bit, it opened up new lists and new variations. I believe the increased satisfaction from some of the players came from being able to destroy ships in one or two passes, as opposed to whittling down the opponent.

Having played upwards of hundreds and hundreds of games over three years, I'm very familiar with playing lists that are not really optimal, and I agree that this is a good way to do things in any group. I'm simply relating the discovery that removing the cards mentioned above swerved the focus of the game significantly enough that new combinations became very possible. I'm not saying players should be taking a reduction approach to the game and that it would be better if we banned cards and ships. Is it a way to grow the game? No. but if you've got a group of buddies you play a lot, it does keep things very fresh :)

I'm just saying I had some of my favourite games in recent memory under these rules, and it's worth a go if you are finding things stale.

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I'm not advocating there be this kind of change to the competitive meta, but if anyone is growing bored of the game and wishes it were a little different locally, I'd suggest giving this a go.

 

 

 

Get better instead of banning cards. That is lame.

*wooooooooosh*

 

That is the sound of you missing the point entirely.

 

 

 

 

God, this meta is just phantoms, huh? Remember when that was the boogie man of the day?

If you wanna shake the meta up, start showing people that you don't need to netlist to have a good list. It's one thing I'm thankful for in my area. We might ask each other for input, but very rarely do we see just the new hotness. Mostly because one person always shows up with a list to nueter it.

 

Wooosh indeed.  It's only a suggestion, and probably fun for a few months of play.  He's found a shift in style that he thinks is well balanced and makes you put your thinking cap back on.

 

And I'm really sick of this attitude that if you are not having fun playing 100/6 standard you must suck at the game.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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Hi everyone, I ran an experiment with our local gaming group, and was pleasantly surprised by the results. I am going to test this on a larger scale in the coming weeks with more players, but it really had a profoundly positive effect on our games.

We banned large ships, x7 titles, autothrusters, TLTs and zuckuss. The result was a surprisingly light, fast but still complex game where squads on the whole seemed broadly even, but most of all, it was really REALLY fun. It was the removal of the multiple daisy-chaining effects you see from the large ships that seemed to do the most for the game, and the broad neutering of most turrets back down to r2.

I'm not advocating there be this kind of change to the competitive meta, but if anyone is growing bored of the game and wishes it were a little different locally, I'd suggest giving this a go.

I like large ships enough, but I think I only like some of them, others just make some of the really fun small ships never see the light of day. It wasn't that the large ships were the issue, a lot of small ships became a lot more powerful with large ships to balance out their weaknesses. In the above format, high PS aces were good, but there was nothing to tip them over the edge, especially without autothrusters.

food for thought.

Long live to the Phantom!

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So did anyone play Whisper + Echo and have a 20+ point bid?

You'd have to be pretty good to get away with that list now. You aren't decloaking with all the information available to you.
Toss an academy pilot in, use as a blocker and it will devastate.

snipe for reply

Except all those combos exist even without removing all those things. Please list some of the examples that are opened when you restrict the game?

I've been playing since wave 1 at release, have played in plethora of competitive scenes, and I still don't understand how people get bored with the game. There are many options to this game, but I have never for once felt that the meta caused the game to be stale. If anything it's usually the attitude of the players. I've always seen it as a challenge to build something that works. I also find more interest in seeing how an opponent plays, regardless of the list. Two people might fly the same list, but they will more then likely fly them completely different.

And to the whoosh comments, it's not hard to see where he's coming from. I also understand that he's just reiterating something he found fun. I'm stating (gasp) an opinion just as he is, on a public forum. So while you might agree with him and believe that some don't see what he does, I see what he is doing and see how it can make for a much more stale meta due to enabling power house ships that can cause just as much headache as the ones he's trying to avoid.

Edited by Hujoe Bigs

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So did anyone play Whisper + Echo and have a 20+ point bid?

You'd have to be pretty good to get away with that list now. You aren't decloaking with all the information available to you.

Two phantoms and a tie went top 8 at our local regional of 132 players. Was 6-0 after swiss.

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I really don't get all of this complaining about the state of the game. My group is very competitive and includes several regional top eight players and a guy who just missed the cut at Worlds . We fly jank ALL THE TIME. We do settle on a strong build for tournaments but all the play with "sub-optimal" squads is really valuable. IMO if you are not having fun, it isn't the games fault, it's your groups.

Edited by LordVogl

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Really dont get the dislike for meta builds

Honestly, it really isnt that difficult to compete in a meta environment now that torp scouts are dead

All you need is dice mods. That isnt very difficult to find even outside meta builds

Hell, you could probably fly 4 zeta specialists with fcs and do quite well

Sure, they lack the consistency to do super well over the many rounds of a tournament...but youre playing casual so who gives a ****

Banning large base pwts is always a good idea, though. Boring as **** they are

Edited by ficklegreendice

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I really don't get all of this complaining about the state of the game.

 

 

Really dont get the dislike for meta builds

 

Hi everyone, I ran an experiment with our local gaming group, and was pleasantly surprised by the results. <> food for thought.

I really don't get why everyone is over interpreting this thread.

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I really don't get all of this complaining about the state of the game.

 

 

Really dont get the dislike for meta builds

 

Hi everyone, I ran an experiment with our local gaming group, and was pleasantly surprised by the results. <> food for thought.

I really don't get why everyone is over interpreting this thread.

Because some people think if its not 100/6 tournament play and you're not trying to win worlds, then you should "git-good", because clearly the only reason you're not trying to win tournaments all the time is because you suck.

The idea you might enjoy the game for things other than 100/6 high-meta tournament play is alien to those people.

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