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Muelmuel

Destruction variant - throw out the dodgy collision rules!!

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Maybe this variant has been done before, but I haven't seen it floating around yet. As a house ruling in your games, how about dealing damage to both ships until the hp weaker ship is destroyed. So the more healthy ship takes damge equal to the remaining hull of the weaker ship. No more need to worry about collision rules, just worry about colliding!

(also prevents demo from recklessly flying into close range with engine techs without first considering the danger of collision)

Could encourage more careful/reckless flying, depending on ur playstyle. As rebs are generally weaker in hull it lends to their style of weaving and dodging while imps can choose to brute force their way through.

Edited by Muelmuel

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No.  This change would actually encourage that style of play.

 

You have ships that physically can't escape collision under certain circumstances, particularly the VSD.  So it would actually encourage even more abuse of the ramming rules to annihilate tough ships.If you expect to lose an unshielded, overload pulse'd Assault Frigate to an Avenger ISD, you can ram it and cause 6 hull points of damage for next to nothing.  Same with a Motti Raider.  A bone stock CR90B is only 39 points for 4 hull, after doing even one point of damage to a Gladiator you could ram Demolisher to death in a single ram under your rule.

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While I am not an exact fan of the FFG ruling, I find your houserule oversimplifying the topic as well. As you said, rebs tend to have weaker hulls which get somewhat compensated by shields on the moncals - sadly, shields dont do stuff in collisions, so rebs would be at a disadvantage in most cases, even more if Motti is around. The rule also somewhat discriminates smaller targets over bulkier ones, as the larger ship can just repair back HP after the collision has been carried out - your small guy on the other hand just vaporized. 

 

Have tried some tweaking to the collision rules as well, with the emphasis on a collision sending both colliding vessels away from another depending on the other targets size and speed, and taking scaling damage. Yet, so far it either feels overburdened with details that non-nerds find unappealing or just add too little to the gameplay to be worth the change.

 

Anyway, I like houserules and hope you share them if new ones come up! Keep up the work.  :)

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We tried a variant on collisions as we weren't too happy with the FFG overlapping rules.

 

When two ships overlap roll a single red dice.

  • Hit = the current rules, each ship takes a damage card and the mover stops short.
  • Crit = As above but apply a face up damage card to each ship.
  • Accuracy = Both ships are destroyed and removed from play.
  • Blank = the ships pass each other. Extend the movement in a straight line of the moving ship to just enough to be touching the base of the other ship with the rear edge/corner of the moving ship.

We gave this a try and it was fun but then we had to write more and more complicated rules for the passing though option and how to apply it in each situation. It was easier to just go back to the FFG way. In addition it is only a 1 in 8 chance but players were piling up CR90s and hoping to obliterate ISDs with ramming attacks. Maybe making an accuracy have the result of passing through but also taking a face down damage card.

 

We then tried an extra rule to the above that if an overlap of the same 2 ships happened again without an intervening turn of them being separated then they would automatically pass through.

Edited by Mad Cat

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Add something to account for the desire to collide (or avoid collision) and the size and maneuverability of a ship at its speed. If both players do not desire a collision, then no collision, only adjust movement along the template per current rules. If one player wants the collision but the other does not, then the player with the higher number of total ticks at their current speed wins the argument. Additionally, if a player has an unspent nav token, they may spend it to add a tick to their current total or change speed to alter their tick total. In the event of a tie, the player with the smaller vessel wins the argument. If all of that is tied, roll a blue die and on an acc or crit, one player wins and on hits, the other player wins. If both players want a collision, then that's easy too. Damage occurs as per current rules.

Edited by WGNF911

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Add something to account for the desire to collide (or avoid collision) and the size and maneuverability of a ship at its speed. If both players do not desire a collision, then no collision, only adjust movement along the template per current rules. If one player wants the collision but the other does not, then the player with the higher number of total ticks at their current speed wins the argument. Additionally, if a player has an unspent nav token, they may spend it to add a tick to their current total or change speed to alter their tick total. In the event of a tie, the player with the smaller vessel wins the argument. If all of that is tied, roll a blue die and on an acc or crit, one player wins and on hits, the other player wins. If both players want a collision, then that's easy too. Damage occurs as per current rules.

What about a Nav Token being useable reflexively to avoid damage? They are about to collide with you, and you spend your nav token for "Evasive maneuvers." If you are the one moving and you are using a nav command, then dial can be used to change speed, increase yaw, or avoid a collision (pick two.) The ships bump for no damage or scoot past each other (but probably bump for no damage.)

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If I was going to mod collision...

Why not just have large ships do 3 damage, medium do 2, and small do 1? It provides a huge benefit to large ships though. Ramming a CR90 with an ISD results in a near dead corvette and 1 damage on the ISD.

Or have it be damage equals 1 less than speed?

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I think the only change I've ever thought was necessary was to do with size classes. If the size class of each is ship in the collision is the same, all goes as normal (eg, Large hits Large). If one of the two ships is a smaller size class (eg, Small hits Medium), the bigger of the two takes the usual damage, and the smaller takes an extra card. 

I think that would be enough to sate me. I've thought about maybe having the Large-to-small collisions having the extra card dealt face up, since it's two size classes in difference, but that might be pushing too far.

 

The extra card should be enough to give some pause for thought when playing aggressively with small ships in close. Similarly, it could dissuade cynical ramming somewhat.

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I think the only change I've ever thought was necessary was to do with size classes. If the size class of each is ship in the collision is the same, all goes as normal (eg, Large hits Large). If one of the two ships is a smaller size class (eg, Small hits Medium), the bigger of the two takes the usual damage, and the smaller takes an extra card. 

I think that would be enough to sate me. I've thought about maybe having the Large-to-small collisions having the extra card dealt face up, since it's two size classes in difference, but that might be pushing too far.

 

The extra card should be enough to give some pause for thought when playing aggressively with small ships in close. Similarly, it could dissuade cynical ramming somewhat.

If you really want to simulate this, velocity has more to do then mass. E=1/2m*v^2

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Here is my idea on how to discourage ramming and encourage better flying.

 

When you overlap another ship, you take damage based on how fast your speed is minus the number of joints you were able to fully move. When you overlap, instead of being placed at the next joint down, you slide along the maneuver tool until the bases touch like what is done in X-Wing. 

 

Damage is based off speed and how many joint you pass. So if you are moving speed 3, and can pass the first 2 joints and overlap on the third, you take 1 damage. If you are moving speed 2 and cannot move past the first joint, you take 2 damage but get to slide up so next round you can hopefully jump over the ship. Your opponent only takes 1 damage ever unless another source says otherwise.

 

By doing this, it tries to get rid of the "I'm stuck forever because I can't speed up" dilemma because you do get that extra bump forward. It also discourages those pesky Rieekan fleets from trying to block your ships at high speed because they can potentially deal 3 damage to themselves, and only 1 damage to you.

 

I think any rule that encourages ramming is going to be bad for the game because why would you use skill to line up shots when you can kamikaze your way to victory.

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If you really want to simulate this, velocity has more to do then mass. E=1/2m*v^2

 

 

If simulation was my goal, I'd me more inclined to go with the OPs idea, and apply movement to the surviving ship. Fair to say, there isn't a huge amount of realism in terms of actual combat or maneuvering in this game, so simulating realistic damage based on mass and velocity would be pointless, and somewhat detracting. The goal of the idea is to penalise small ships when ramming larger ones, and bolster larger ships against swarm ramming being used as a means of finishing them off. Gameplay > Fluff > Science.

 

Bear in mind, I said size class, not weight class. I'm going off the game mechanics as a metric, rather than physical ship mass or speed. The ships are already classed by base size as small/medium/large, so this is a relatively simple extension to the existing rule that provides another tactical element.

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Oh hooray! It's time for our monthly "I don't like the collision/ramming/overlapping rules" thread just in time for December! MERRY SITHMAS, EVERYONE!

We already have one for "I don't like high activation fleets" and "I'm bad at squadrons, lets get rid of them" so why not this?

 

But really, the collision rules leave a lot to desire. I think they would be much better if the ships touched like they do in X-Wing so you can at least get some value from moving. Only problem with that is fitting the tool in the crammed space to actually get going. But you can always use a marker to clear up space which is already fairly common.

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Maybe this variant has been done before, but I haven't seen it floating around yet. As a house ruling in your games, how about dealing damage to both ships until the hp weaker ship is destroyed. So the more healthy ship takes damage equal to the remaining hull of the weaker ship. No more need to worry about collision rules, just worry about colliding!

(also prevents demo from recklessly flying into close range with engine techs without first considering the danger of collision)

Could encourage more careful/reckless flying, depending on your playstyle. As rebs are generally weaker in hull it lends to their style of weaving and dodging while imps can choose to brute force their way through.

 

I'm firmly opposed to this idea. Three empty CR90Bs can take out an Imperial class Star Destroyer without a single shot, provided the latter isn't protected by Motti. Do the math, as soon as the Star Destroyer has any upgrades, the Rebels win the exchange on points. The ramming rules were never intended to be "realistic". None of the game was (see relative firepower of the CR90 and the Imperial we are discussing). I'm open to X-wing style partial movement, but the system was always designed playability first, "realism" second. If you want to write and run house rules, by all means, please go ahead. I regularly use custom ships from KDY. As it stands though, the collision rules are the rules, and I definitely don't think this is a great replacement idea.

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Here is my idea on how to discourage ramming and encourage better flying.

 

When you overlap another ship, you take damage based on how fast your speed is minus the number of joints you were able to fully move. When you overlap, instead of being placed at the next joint down, you slide along the maneuver tool until the bases touch like what is done in X-Wing. 

 

Damage is based off speed and how many joint you pass. So if you are moving speed 3, and can pass the first 2 joints and overlap on the third, you take 1 damage. If you are moving speed 2 and cannot move past the first joint, you take 2 damage but get to slide up so next round you can hopefully jump over the ship. Your opponent only takes 1 damage ever unless another source says otherwise.

 

By doing this, it tries to get rid of the "I'm stuck forever because I can't speed up" dilemma because you do get that extra bump forward. It also discourages those pesky Rieekan fleets from trying to block your ships at high speed because they can potentially deal 3 damage to themselves, and only 1 damage to you.

 

I think any rule that encourages ramming is going to be bad for the game because why would you use skill to line up shots when you can kamikaze your way to victory.

Defiantly top prize for the best thought out different rule for ramming. I like it.

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I think the only change I've ever thought was necessary was to do with size classes. If the size class of each is ship in the collision is the same, all goes as normal (eg, Large hits Large). If one of the two ships is a smaller size class (eg, Small hits Medium), the bigger of the two takes the usual damage, and the smaller takes an extra card. 

I think that would be enough to sate me. I've thought about maybe having the Large-to-small collisions having the extra card dealt face up, since it's two size classes in difference, but that might be pushing too far.

 

The extra card should be enough to give some pause for thought when playing aggressively with small ships in close. Similarly, it could dissuade cynical ramming somewhat.

Engine Tech'ed MC80 ready to deal 6 Damage cards...

Ramming is a weird beast.  In modern naval battles its not an option because ships are too slow on the water relative to the range of their weapons.  You or the intended target would be long dead before getting into physical contact.

In space, though, with greater speeds, you'd have to wonder why wouldn't you ram if it could be accomplished without getting shot down.  Hell, if you're GR75 about to get gunned down by an ISD why wouldn't you just launch as many escape pods as you could and then hyperspace right into their bridge?

Han already established in TFA that shields don't stop things faster than the speed of light.  Hell, why didn't The Resistance just hyperspace a nebulon frigate with a single droid pilot right into Starkiller's oscillator?  Why didn't the First Order just have a few big freighters or even star destroyers just smash into Republic planets whilst in hyperspace?  Something the size of a Star Destroyer going faster than the speed of light would have enough momentum to be far more devastating than even climate-killing meteors. 

You could build ships with just empty mass.  No need for weapons or crew quarters or kitchens or bathrooms or engineering stations or hangar bays.  Just mass, mass, mass.  A skeletal droid crew.  And some engines.  BOOM.  Or, if things as small as A-Wings are capable of hyperspace, why not build large warheads about the size of A-Wings that can fire ordnance that then jumps into hyperspace into its target?

 

 

 

 

But, of course, this wouldn't be any fun in an action sci-fi world built around exciting dog fights and fleet battles.  So we have to pretend that collisions aren't a thing and that hyperspacing right into a planet isn't a possibility, even though we've now seen Han Solo (almost) do it.

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy

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Ramming is a weird beast.  In modern naval battles its not an option because ships are too slow on the water relative to the range of their weapons.  You or the intended target would be long dead before getting into physical contact.

In space, though, with greater speeds, you'd have to wonder why wouldn't you ram if it could be accomplished without getting shot down.  Hell, if you're GR75 about to get gunned down by an ISD why wouldn't you just launch as many escape pods as you could and then hyperspace right into their bridge?

 

 

Mostly because the crew would still die/be captured?  ESPECIALLY if you just took out an ISD - do you really want to be left floating in Imperial space, waiting for the next patrol to stop by and 'pick you up for questioning'?

 

The real reason 'ramming' isn't a thing - and hasn't been a thing in naval warfare since ships could move at a speed faster than walking pace - is that the crew on the ship DOING the ram is as likely to end up dead as their intended target.

 

Back in the Babylon 5 Wars game, they had a rule for ramming - 'the player planning to perform a ramming maneuver must give a speech, and all players participating in the game have to vote on whether it was sufficiently moving and motivating to be worth dying for, and if so the ramming maneuver is allowed'.  Otherwise...nope.

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Note that in WW2 destroyers tried and succeeded in ramming enemy submarines. Most modern "ramming" is more like collisions between friendlies.

If you look in my past posts- I dislike ramming and think it is silly in space.

Edited by vsolfronk

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I think the only change I've ever thought was necessary was to do with size classes. If the size class of each is ship in the collision is the same, all goes as normal (eg, Large hits Large). If one of the two ships is a smaller size class (eg, Small hits Medium), the bigger of the two takes the usual damage, and the smaller takes an extra card. 

I think that would be enough to sate me. I've thought about maybe having the Large-to-small collisions having the extra card dealt face up, since it's two size classes in difference, but that might be pushing too far.

 

The extra card should be enough to give some pause for thought when playing aggressively with small ships in close. Similarly, it could dissuade cynical ramming somewhat.

And why didn't the eagles just fly frost to mount doom?

Engine Tech'ed MC80 ready to deal 6 Damage cards...

Ramming is a weird beast.  In modern naval battles its not an option because ships are too slow on the water relative to the range of their weapons.  You or the intended target would be long dead before getting into physical contact.

In space, though, with greater speeds, you'd have to wonder why wouldn't you ram if it could be accomplished without getting shot down.  Hell, if you're GR75 about to get gunned down by an ISD why wouldn't you just launch as many escape pods as you could and then hyperspace right into their bridge?

Han already established in TFA that shields don't stop things faster than the speed of light.  Hell, why didn't The Resistance just hyperspace a nebulon frigate with a single droid pilot right into Starkiller's oscillator?  Why didn't the First Order just have a few big freighters or even star destroyers just smash into Republic planets whilst in hyperspace?  Something the size of a Star Destroyer going faster than the speed of light would have enough momentum to be far more devastating than even climate-killing meteors. 

You could build ships with just empty mass.  No need for weapons or crew quarters or kitchens or bathrooms or engineering stations or hangar bays.  Just mass, mass, mass.  A skeletal droid crew.  And some engines.  BOOM.  Or, if things as small as A-Wings are capable of hyperspace, why not build large warheads about the size of A-Wings that can fire ordnance that then jumps into hyperspace into its target?

 

 

 

 

But, of course, this wouldn't be any fun in an action sci-fi world built around exciting dog fights and fleet battles.  So we have to pretend that collisions aren't a thing and that hyperspacing right into a planet isn't a possibility, even though we've now seen Han Solo (almost) do it.

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I think the only change I've ever thought was necessary was to do with size classes. If the size class of each is ship in the collision is the same, all goes as normal (eg, Large hits Large). If one of the two ships is a smaller size class (eg, Small hits Medium), the bigger of the two takes the usual damage, and the smaller takes an extra card. 

I think that would be enough to sate me. I've thought about maybe having the Large-to-small collisions having the extra card dealt face up, since it's two size classes in difference, but that might be pushing too far.

 

The extra card should be enough to give some pause for thought when playing aggressively with small ships in close. Similarly, it could dissuade cynical ramming somewhat.

Engine Tech'ed MC80 ready to deal 6 Damage cards...

Ramming is a weird beast.  In modern naval battles its not an option because ships are too slow on the water relative to the range of their weapons.  You or the intended target would be long dead before getting into physical contact.

In space, though, with greater speeds, you'd have to wonder why wouldn't you ram if it could be accomplished without getting shot down.  Hell, if you're GR75 about to get gunned down by an ISD why wouldn't you just launch as many escape pods as you could and then hyperspace right into their bridge?

Han already established in TFA that shields don't stop things faster than the speed of light.  Hell, why didn't The Resistance just hyperspace a nebulon frigate with a single droid pilot right into Starkiller's oscillator?  Why didn't the First Order just have a few big freighters or even star destroyers just smash into Republic planets whilst in hyperspace?  Something the size of a Star Destroyer going faster than the speed of light would have enough momentum to be far more devastating than even climate-killing meteors. 

You could build ships with just empty mass.  No need for weapons or crew quarters or kitchens or bathrooms or engineering stations or hangar bays.  Just mass, mass, mass.  A skeletal droid crew.  And some engines.  BOOM.  Or, if things as small as A-Wings are capable of hyperspace, why not build large warheads about the size of A-Wings that can fire ordnance that then jumps into hyperspace into its target?

 

 

 

 

But, of course, this wouldn't be any fun in an action sci-fi world built around exciting dog fights and fleet battles.  So we have to pretend that collisions aren't a thing and that hyperspacing right into a planet isn't a possibility, even though we've now seen Han Solo (almost) do it.

 

In ESB, an ISD was destroyed (implied) be asteroids  chasing Han into Hoth's asteroid belt. In RoTS, you can see parts of ships crashing into other ones. In the CW, Trench has thermal shields that can block physical objects like missles. In Armada, we deal damage to hull instead of sheilds due to ramming.

 

I don't think you need to hyperspace in to bypass shields, unless it is a large planetary shield which is likely the one used to protect Starkiller. Also, the tech could have advanced in the 20 sum years so normal shields could block physical objects.

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