The Control upgrade for Influence

[killerbeardhawk 457]

Basically your using the force to alter your voice, body language, pheromones, speech patterns and micro expressions to make yourself more charismatic, or intimidating or believable etc.

All of those things are perceived only in the mind of the target. It is the target’s mind that you are influencing with the “Influence” power.

Given that Enhance Athletics, Resilience, Brawl, Coordination, Piloting (Planetary and Space) and also Manipulate, Control upgrade that applies force dice to Mechanics checks are all worded identically to the control upgrade for influence, does that mean the following

The first question you should ask yourself is where are the effects perceived?

Are the effects perceived only in the mind of the target? Then that is the only thing the power is affecting.

Are the effects perceived in the mind of the person being enhanced? Then that is the thing that the power is affecting.

Now, things get a little different when the power can affect inanimate objects. Inanimate objects can’t perceive that they are being thrown through the air, but they inanimate object is still being affected by the power.

Getting back to the topic, for the Influence power, who is being influenced?

 

 

The titles they have used for powers and talents have been rather generic to the point they have been misleading. Precision Strike has a portion of its ability able to work with ranged hits and gunnery. Suppressing Fire works with all combat checks, not just ranged fire. There are plenty more examples. You have to look to the wording of the long descriptions of talents, force upgrades etc, to see exaxctly how they work. The last time I had a similar discussion everyone else said I was completely wrong about how I understood Precision Strike to work , and that whole discussion was about 1/ a section of wording not even in the description and 2/ was totally regarding how the talent worked with ranged combat even though it was called Strike. Turned out that RAW and RAI I actually wasn't even going far enough with how it was supposed to work.

Why is this relevant, well go look at the long description of the upgrade and it tells you how it works. 1/ it makes YOU more charismatic and makes YOUR arguments more cohesive. It does not target anyone but yourself and is triggered by YOU making a social check, allowing you to make an INFLUENCE POWER check with the roll adding advantage or success to the result. It says nothing about the influence check targetting anyone here. The wording tells you exactly how it works and it works identically to how enhance :(Skill) works in the enhance tree and it works identically to the identically worded control upgrade in Manipulate, the title of the power gives some cohesion to the tree ,you are still trying to influence a target, just not directly with the force, as that is covered by the other control upgrade and not this control upgrade OR EVEN THE BASIC POWER.(which doesn't even influence the target, it ONLY causes strain damage)

As Bradknowles stated, it goes back to who is precieving the effect? If everyone within earshot were affected by that player's use of the Social upgrade, not just those covered by the Magnitude upgrade, then you could say that the user is enhancing his own natural charisma. However, this is not the case. The only targets subject to the "boosted:" social skills are those limited to the user's Magnitude upgrades (or lack thereof). If there are five guards in the room, and you try to order them to leave their posts with the door unlocked, using Influence in conjunction with a Social check, but you only have one Magnitude upgrade, only two of those Guards will be affected. The boost only applies to those two guards. Against the other two, you are stuck with the base die roll. Thus, it is the target's mind being affected, not the user's natural ability.

Tramp, as some who GMs this game AND plays it, I have to say you still have alot to learn about the system. There is no range required for using influence with social checks. The strength, range, and magnitude upgrades apply only to the basic power. This is consistent with all other force powers in the game.

Once again, influence can be used on even special social actions and are not required to use strength, range, or magnitude upgrades. It is simply force point equals succes/advantage. Your overcomplicating the rules by applying every upgrade together.

Once again, the influence check combined with social checks can be used over the comms of a star ship, via holomessager across the galaxy, and even to two people at medium range.

Have you even played the game yet?

[Benjan Meruna 797]

 

Why is this relevant, well go look at the long description of the upgrade and it tells you how it works. 1/ it makes YOU more charismatic and makes YOUR arguments more cohesive.

This thread is clearly useless. Since you are the person who has made this thread useless, I think it’s pretty clear that you have also made yourself useless.

*PLONK*

 

 

This is wholly uncalled for and inconsiderate.

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

 

 

 

 

 

Basically your using the force to alter your voice, body language, pheromones, speech patterns and micro expressions to make yourself more charismatic, or intimidating or believable etc.

All of those things are perceived only in the mind of the target. It is the target’s mind that you are influencing with the “Influence” power.

Given that Enhance Athletics, Resilience, Brawl, Coordination, Piloting (Planetary and Space) and also Manipulate, Control upgrade that applies force dice to Mechanics checks are all worded identically to the control upgrade for influence, does that mean the following

The first question you should ask yourself is where are the effects perceived?

Are the effects perceived only in the mind of the target? Then that is the only thing the power is affecting.

Are the effects perceived in the mind of the person being enhanced? Then that is the thing that the power is affecting.

Now, things get a little different when the power can affect inanimate objects. Inanimate objects can’t perceive that they are being thrown through the air, but they inanimate object is still being affected by the power.

Getting back to the topic, for the Influence power, who is being influenced?

 

 

The titles they have used for powers and talents have been rather generic to the point they have been misleading. Precision Strike has a portion of its ability able to work with ranged hits and gunnery. Suppressing Fire works with all combat checks, not just ranged fire. There are plenty more examples. You have to look to the wording of the long descriptions of talents, force upgrades etc, to see exaxctly how they work. The last time I had a similar discussion everyone else said I was completely wrong about how I understood Precision Strike to work , and that whole discussion was about 1/ a section of wording not even in the description and 2/ was totally regarding how the talent worked with ranged combat even though it was called Strike. Turned out that RAW and RAI I actually wasn't even going far enough with how it was supposed to work.

Why is this relevant, well go look at the long description of the upgrade and it tells you how it works. 1/ it makes YOU more charismatic and makes YOUR arguments more cohesive. It does not target anyone but yourself and is triggered by YOU making a social check, allowing you to make an INFLUENCE POWER check with the roll adding advantage or success to the result. It says nothing about the influence check targetting anyone here. The wording tells you exactly how it works and it works identically to how enhance :(Skill) works in the enhance tree and it works identically to the identically worded control upgrade in Manipulate, the title of the power gives some cohesion to the tree ,you are still trying to influence a target, just not directly with the force, as that is covered by the other control upgrade and not this control upgrade OR EVEN THE BASIC POWER.(which doesn't even influence the target, it ONLY causes strain damage)

As Bradknowles stated, it goes back to who is precieving the effect? If everyone within earshot were affected by that player's use of the Social upgrade, not just those covered by the Magnitude upgrade, then you could say that the user is enhancing his own natural charisma. However, this is not the case. The only targets subject to the "boosted:" social skills are those limited to the user's Magnitude upgrades (or lack thereof). If there are five guards in the room, and you try to order them to leave their posts with the door unlocked, using Influence in conjunction with a Social check, but you only have one Magnitude upgrade, only two of those Guards will be affected. The boost only applies to those two guards. Against the other two, you are stuck with the base die roll. Thus, it is the target's mind being affected, not the user's natural ability.

Tramp, as some who GMs this game AND plays it, I have to say you still have alot to learn about the system. There is no range required for using influence with social checks. The strength, range, and magnitude upgrades apply only to the basic power. This is consistent with all other force powers in the game.

Once again, influence can be used on even special social actions and are not required to use strength, range, or magnitude upgrades. It is simply force point equals succes/advantage. Your overcomplicating the rules by applying every upgrade together.

Once again, the influence check combined with social checks can be used over the comms of a star ship, via holomessager across the galaxy, and even to two people at medium range.

Have you even played the game yet?

 

No. The upgrades apply to the whole power, not just thew base. This is also true for all powers. Secondly, the only power we've seen in canon actually affect someone over a comm system was Force Choke, used on Admiral Ozzel. We've never seen Influence used over comms, only face-to-face. Even if it could be used over comms, you'd still be limited by the range from the speaker/monitor as well as the magnitude upgrade limit of targets affected. Without magnitude upgrades, the user can only affect one person with any use of the power. This includes the Social Checks upgrade. Thus, the upgrade can only affect the a number of people appropriate to his Magnitude upgrades. 

[killerbeardhawk 457]

Basically your using the force to alter your voice, body language, pheromones, speech patterns and micro expressions to make yourself more charismatic, or intimidating or believable etc.

All of those things are perceived only in the mind of the target. It is the target’s mind that you are influencing with the “Influence” power.

Given that Enhance Athletics, Resilience, Brawl, Coordination, Piloting (Planetary and Space) and also Manipulate, Control upgrade that applies force dice to Mechanics checks are all worded identically to the control upgrade for influence, does that mean the following

The first question you should ask yourself is where are the effects perceived?

Are the effects perceived only in the mind of the target? Then that is the only thing the power is affecting.

Are the effects perceived in the mind of the person being enhanced? Then that is the thing that the power is affecting.

Now, things get a little different when the power can affect inanimate objects. Inanimate objects can’t perceive that they are being thrown through the air, but they inanimate object is still being affected by the power.

Getting back to the topic, for the Influence power, who is being influenced?

 

 

The titles they have used for powers and talents have been rather generic to the point they have been misleading. Precision Strike has a portion of its ability able to work with ranged hits and gunnery. Suppressing Fire works with all combat checks, not just ranged fire. There are plenty more examples. You have to look to the wording of the long descriptions of talents, force upgrades etc, to see exaxctly how they work. The last time I had a similar discussion everyone else said I was completely wrong about how I understood Precision Strike to work , and that whole discussion was about 1/ a section of wording not even in the description and 2/ was totally regarding how the talent worked with ranged combat even though it was called Strike. Turned out that RAW and RAI I actually wasn't even going far enough with how it was supposed to work.

Why is this relevant, well go look at the long description of the upgrade and it tells you how it works. 1/ it makes YOU more charismatic and makes YOUR arguments more cohesive. It does not target anyone but yourself and is triggered by YOU making a social check, allowing you to make an INFLUENCE POWER check with the roll adding advantage or success to the result. It says nothing about the influence check targetting anyone here. The wording tells you exactly how it works and it works identically to how enhance :(Skill) works in the enhance tree and it works identically to the identically worded control upgrade in Manipulate, the title of the power gives some cohesion to the tree ,you are still trying to influence a target, just not directly with the force, as that is covered by the other control upgrade and not this control upgrade OR EVEN THE BASIC POWER.(which doesn't even influence the target, it ONLY causes strain damage)

As Bradknowles stated, it goes back to who is precieving the effect? If everyone within earshot were affected by that player's use of the Social upgrade, not just those covered by the Magnitude upgrade, then you could say that the user is enhancing his own natural charisma. However, this is not the case. The only targets subject to the "boosted:" social skills are those limited to the user's Magnitude upgrades (or lack thereof). If there are five guards in the room, and you try to order them to leave their posts with the door unlocked, using Influence in conjunction with a Social check, but you only have one Magnitude upgrade, only two of those Guards will be affected. The boost only applies to those two guards. Against the other two, you are stuck with the base die roll. Thus, it is the target's mind being affected, not the user's natural ability.

Tramp, as some who GMs this game AND plays it, I have to say you still have alot to learn about the system. There is no range required for using influence with social checks. The strength, range, and magnitude upgrades apply only to the basic power. This is consistent with all other force powers in the game.

Once again, influence can be used on even special social actions and are not required to use strength, range, or magnitude upgrades. It is simply force point equals succes/advantage. Your overcomplicating the rules by applying every upgrade together.

Once again, the influence check combined with social checks can be used over the comms of a star ship, via holomessager across the galaxy, and even to two people at medium range.

Have you even played the game yet?

No. The upgrades apply to the whole power, not just thew base. This is also true for all powers. Secondly, the only power we've seen in canon actually affect someone over a comm system was Force Choke, used on Admiral Ozzel. We've never seen Influence used over comms, only face-to-face. Even if it could be used over comms, you'd still be limited by the range from the speaker/monitor as well as the magnitude upgrade limit of targets affected. Without magnitude upgrades, the user can only affect one person with any use of the power. This includes the Social Checks upgrade. Thus, the upgrade can only affect the a number of people appropriate to his Magnitude upgrades.

Please quote page and paragraph in CRB that explains the requirements of the force control upgrade that states it does need upgrades. (It doesn't exist)

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

Please quote where Magnitude and Range Upgrades only affect the Base power. They don't. They affect every part of the power. For instance, Battle Meditation has two Control upgrades, both of which depend upon and are affected by Range and Magnitude upgrades. One allows the use of Leadership as part of the Pool. The second upgrades the range of the power to Planetary scale. In both cases, Range and the number of targets affected (and thus range and Magnitude upgrades) affect and are affected by the Control upgrades.  There is no instance in any Force power where the Control upgrades are completely independent from the Range and Magnitude upgrades. All of any given power's upgrades are enhancements of the base power, be they Control, Range, Duration, or Mastery, and all are interconnected and can be used in any combination. The Duration, Range, and Magnitude upgrades from Influence can be applied to all uses of the Influence power, not just the Base power. In order to affect more than one target, any use of Influence needs Magnitude upgrades. This is true of all Force powers that target others. The number of people affected by the base power and all of its control upgrades is determined by the Magnitude upgrades purchased, and the distance at which said power and Control Upgrades is determined by the Range upgrades purchased.