The Control upgrade for Influence

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

 

 

Under the INFLUENCE SPECIAL RULE sidebar it states

When influence is used to guide and shape thoughts.....

Under the control upgrade I refer to

The user gains the ability to enhance his arguments and charisma via the force.

Now where in the control upgrade does it say anything about using the force to guide another's thoughts. You are using the force to improve yourself, not manipulate another, you are then using that improved skill to manipulate another. Depending on what you are asking your target to do, that may be conflict worthy and also be added to by the motive modifier, but using the control upgrade itself IMO should not , neither should this upgrade be subject to the INFLUENCE SPECIAL RULE in any way. Of course any GM may rule otherwise, its just that I don't happen to agree with the way order66 described it.

It's done by making the target more receptive though. The power which enhances your own abilities is Enhance. Influence is all about altering other people's thoughts and feelings. The Social checks upgrade alters people's thoughts using your Social checks as a medium. You are speaking while using the Force in order to Influence the target and guide the target's thoughts.  The user is not enhancing his own natural abilities, rather how the target responds to them.

 

Obi-Wan (using Influence:  "You don't want to sell me Death Sticks"

 

Drug Dealer (under the effects of Influence): "I don't want to sell you Death Sticks."

 

Obi-Wan (using Influence) : "You want to go home and rethink your life."

 

Drug Dealer (under effects of Influence): "I want to go home and rethink my life."

 

That exchange right there is a prime example of the Social Checks upgrade and specifically how it's  affecting the target's suggestibility, not making Obi-Wan inherently more "charismatic". 

 

The Special Rule section also specifically states that Influence is used to guide the thoughts and emotions of targets. Even the main description of the power calls it the "Mind Trick". 

While I agree that the power is used to make the other person more suggestible, this is an example of the other Control upgrade.

 

Nope. Obi-Wan is using social checks to convince the drug dealer to not try to sell him death sticks and go home and rethink his life. He's not changing his emotions. He's influencing this thoughts through a social check. 

[syrath 1,316]

Under the INFLUENCE SPECIAL RULE sidebar it states

When influence is used to guide and shape thoughts.....

Under the control upgrade I refer to

The user gains the ability to enhance his arguments and charisma via the force.

Now where in the control upgrade does it say anything about using the force to guide another's thoughts. You are using the force to improve yourself, not manipulate another, you are then using that improved skill to manipulate another. Depending on what you are asking your target to do, that may be conflict worthy and also be added to by the motive modifier, but using the control upgrade itself IMO should not , neither should this upgrade be subject to the INFLUENCE SPECIAL RULE in any way. Of course any GM may rule otherwise, its just that I don't happen to agree with the way order66 described it.

It's done by making the target more receptive though. The power which enhances your own abilities is Enhance. Influence is all about altering other people's thoughts and feelings. The Social checks upgrade alters people's thoughts using your Social checks as a medium. You are speaking while using the Force in order to Influence the target and guide the target's thoughts.  The user is not enhancing his own natural abilities, rather how the target responds to them.

 

Obi-Wan (using Influence:  "You don't want to sell me Death Sticks"

 

Drug Dealer (under the effects of Influence): "I don't want to sell you Death Sticks."

 

Obi-Wan (using Influence) : "You want to go home and rethink your life."

 

Drug Dealer (under effects of Influence): "I want to go home and rethink my life."

 

That exchange right there is a prime example of the Social Checks upgrade and specifically how it's  affecting the target's suggestibility, not making Obi-Wan inherently more "charismatic". 

 

The Special Rule section also specifically states that Influence is used to guide the thoughts and emotions of targets. Even the main description of the power calls it the "Mind Trick". 

While I agree that the power is used to make the other person more suggestible, this is an example of the other Control upgrade.

Nope. Obi-Wan is using social checks to convince the drug dealer to not try to sell him death sticks and go home and rethink his life. He's not changing his emotions. He's influencing this thoughts through a social check.

There is no way he used charm etc, he TOLD him what he wanted to do and he complied, he did not CHARM , NEGOTIATE, LEAD or COERCE him to do it.

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

 

 

 

 

Under the INFLUENCE SPECIAL RULE sidebar it states

When influence is used to guide and shape thoughts.....

Under the control upgrade I refer to

The user gains the ability to enhance his arguments and charisma via the force.

Now where in the control upgrade does it say anything about using the force to guide another's thoughts. You are using the force to improve yourself, not manipulate another, you are then using that improved skill to manipulate another. Depending on what you are asking your target to do, that may be conflict worthy and also be added to by the motive modifier, but using the control upgrade itself IMO should not , neither should this upgrade be subject to the INFLUENCE SPECIAL RULE in any way. Of course any GM may rule otherwise, its just that I don't happen to agree with the way order66 described it.

It's done by making the target more receptive though. The power which enhances your own abilities is Enhance. Influence is all about altering other people's thoughts and feelings. The Social checks upgrade alters people's thoughts using your Social checks as a medium. You are speaking while using the Force in order to Influence the target and guide the target's thoughts.  The user is not enhancing his own natural abilities, rather how the target responds to them.

 

Obi-Wan (using Influence:  "You don't want to sell me Death Sticks"

 

Drug Dealer (under the effects of Influence): "I don't want to sell you Death Sticks."

 

Obi-Wan (using Influence) : "You want to go home and rethink your life."

 

Drug Dealer (under effects of Influence): "I want to go home and rethink my life."

 

That exchange right there is a prime example of the Social Checks upgrade and specifically how it's  affecting the target's suggestibility, not making Obi-Wan inherently more "charismatic". 

 

The Special Rule section also specifically states that Influence is used to guide the thoughts and emotions of targets. Even the main description of the power calls it the "Mind Trick". 

While I agree that the power is used to make the other person more suggestible, this is an example of the other Control upgrade.

Nope. Obi-Wan is using social checks to convince the drug dealer to not try to sell him death sticks and go home and rethink his life. He's not changing his emotions. He's influencing this thoughts through a social check.

There is no way he used charm etc, he TOLD him what he wanted to do and he complied, he did not CHARM , NEGOTIATE, LEAD or COERCE him to do it.

 

I disagree. You could apply any of those to it, primarily Leadership or Coerce. Another good example (of a failed attempt in this case) Is Qui-Gon negotiating with Watto and trying to use Influence to convince him to take Republic Credits. Watto specifically states, "Mind Tricks don't work on me, only money." Qui-Gon attempted to use Influence to make Watto more suggestive to accepting Republic Credits during negotiations for parts. 

[syrath 1,316]

Leadership I can buy, however Obiwan got the guy to go against his nature, this was definitely a mind trick, while I could buy leadership in this situation, there is no way he showed any qualities that showed this. To be honest though we have nothing to base either of our arguments on. I wouldnt say he was showing signs of force enhanced charm, negotiation, , definitely not coercion, but the way he offhandedly suggested it definitely wasn't leadership either and its this factor that makes it more the traditional jedi mind trick and not enhanced social skills. Enhanced social skills would be more subtle

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

Leadership I can buy, however Obiwan got the guy to go against his nature, this was definitely a mind trick, while I could buy leadership in this situation, there is no way he showed any qualities that showed this. To be honest though we have nothing to base either of our arguments on. I wouldnt say he was showing signs of force enhanced charm, negotiation, , definitely not coercion, but the way he offhandedly suggested it definitely wasn't leadership either and its this factor that makes it more the traditional jedi mind trick and not enhanced social skills. Enhanced social skills would be more subtle

That's exactly my point. He used the Mind Trick to convince the drug dealer to (hopefully) change his ways. Thus using Influence combined with  a Social check to alter the target's thoughts. 

[syrath 1,316]

There was no convincing done -that requires the use of logic (negotiation), appeal to your emotions (Charm),your own self preservation (coercion) which leaves leadership , which could be any of these to a higher or lesser degree, so the only possible one that could have been used is leadership, regardless though you are still describing the other force ability, the major difference in the description of that control upgrade in the book, is that you enhance your own ability, you are not externalising the force in any way. If this isn't the case please quote where in the following description that it does.

Control upgrade: The user gains the ability to enhance HIS arguments and charisma via the Force. When making a Coercion, Charm, Deception, Leadership , or Negotiation check, the user may roll an Influence power check as part of the pool. He may spend pips to vain success or advantage (his choice) per point on the check.

Now if this check was using the force on someone else then they would also potentially have an additional discipline check involved as you are targetting someone. Which means that Scathing Tirade is a lroblem because you are now using tirade against potentially mutiple nemesis and rivals meaning multiple opposed discipline rolls. Given that the wording is the same as enhance brawl,then the same applies for similar brawl checks.Compare the wording

When making an Athletics check, the user may roll an Enhance power check as part of the pool. The user may spend...

Finally, the first control upgrade allows you to force a target to believe something that is not true. Do you really think that the character Sleaz A'Baggano (or whatever his name was) actually believed that he didn't want to sell death sticks (his chosen profession) and believed that he wanted to go home and rethink his life. The scene was an obvious call back to episode iv's "these aren't the droids you are looking for", right down to the fact they responded by repeating everything back like it was their idea (which is synonymous with the mind trick whenever you have seen it used), this follows this pattern in all the films from A New Hope through to The Force Awakens , the Clone Wars and Rebels, at least when successful. Notice that Wato noticed that he thought Qui Gon thought he was a Jedi waving his hand around like that, which is another thing that you see when the mind trick is used. Boosting charm etc is exactly that , it can make you appear more appealing, sincere, menacing, believable and dare I quote the upgrade and say Charismatic, but the persuasion still comes from you not the mind of the target. Edited December 1, 2016 by syrath

[bradknowles 4,449]

Re-reading the F&D CRB on page 295, it’s clear that Obiwan was using the first Control upgrade for the Influence power (10pts, not 15), and directly imposing his will on the will of the other party/ies.

There was no Coercion, Charm, Deception, Leadership, or Negotiation involved in either of those situations. The first control upgrade is quite clearly and explicitly written in that respect.

What I think is missing here is the Mastery upgrade to the Influence power, which would allow you to make the Duration permanent if you spend enough FPs, usable only once per session, etc….

Some powers as written by FFG have Mastery upgrades, some don’t. And unfortunately, Influence is one that doesn’t. Maybe that will be fixed in a future book, or maybe not. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t choose to fix this issue in our own games.

Edited December 1, 2016 by bradknowles

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

Here's another factor that points to all of the Influence Upgrades affecting the target, not the user, including the Social Checks upgrade. Even using the Social Checks upgrade, those "bonuses" you'd normally get to your social checks won't come into effect when used against a Droid.  Droids are immune to the Influence power.

[The Shy Ion 502]

Obi-Wan forced the drug dealer to believe something untrue: that he didn't want to sell Obi-Wan death sticks, and instead wanted to go home and rethink his life.

Edit: Someone else already said this. This is what I get for skimming.

Edited December 2, 2016 by The Shy Ion

[syrath 1,316]

Here's another factor that points to all of the Influence Upgrades affecting the target, not the user, including the Social Checks upgrade. Even using the Social Checks upgrade, those "bonuses" you'd normally get to your social checks won't come into effect when used against a Droid. Droids are immune to the Influence power.

Actually, where does it say this, it is still possible to use boosted charm checks, otherwise the same would apply to enhance. So by your factoring enhance-brawl which is worded identically to this control upgrade the wouldnt work against a droid, or even if you choose to hit a door, you could not use the boosted check if you use the same logic, or even the similarly worded section in manipulate.

Just to clarify, you are not any point targetting anyone else when you use this upgrade, you are the target of this effect, the droid would be the target of the social check and not the influence power.

Edited December 2, 2016 by syrath

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

 

Here's another factor that points to all of the Influence Upgrades affecting the target, not the user, including the Social Checks upgrade. Even using the Social Checks upgrade, those "bonuses" you'd normally get to your social checks won't come into effect when used against a Droid. Droids are immune to the Influence power.

Actually, where does it say this, it is still possible to use boosted charm checks, otherwise the same would apply to enhance. So by your factoring enhance-brawl which is worded identically to this control upgrade the wouldnt work against a droid, or even if you choose to hit a door, you could not use the boosted check if you use the same logic, or even the similarly worded section in manipulate.

Just to clarify, you are not any point targetting anyone else when you use this upgrade, you are the target of this effect, the droid would be the target of the social check and not the influence power.

 

Droids are immune to Mind affecting Force powers, this includes Influence. Enhance is not a mind affecting Force power. You can't use Influence at all on a Droid. That means no "social checks upgrade" either. 

[syrath 1,316]

To point this out, yet again, but where in this upgrade are you using the force to influence the mind of the droid, you use the force to make you better at social checks, the force is not directly affecting the droid, or targetting the droid. It affects and targets the user , the boosted social check targets the droid, of course a Gm can rule what they like, however RAW I'd recommend contacting the devs through the support channels if you disagree.

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

Influence affects other people. That's right in the base text of the power. That is all it does. Every upgrade is based upon this very basic fact. With the Social check upgrade, you are bettering your social checks by affecting the mind of the target, to make him or her more suggestible not internally enhancing your inherent abilities to make yourself more charismatic. All uses of Influence we see in canon and legends show this. It is never an internal enhancement of your own ability. Telling a guard to let you pass or unlock your bonds (as Rey did in TFA) is using Influence with a Social check to make him let you go. It's not making him believe something untrue nor altering his emotions. It's commanding/convincing  him to do something by affecting his mind to make him more suggestible to your will. That is the Social Check upgrade. 

[whafrog 10,384]

To point this out, yet again, but where in this upgrade are you using the force to influence the mind of the droid, you use the force to make you better at social checks, the force is not directly affecting the droid, or targetting the droid. It affects and targets the user , the boosted social check targets the droid, of course a Gm can rule what they like, however RAW I'd recommend contacting the devs through the support channels if you disagree.

 

This makes no sense to me, and IMHO is contradicted by the wording.  The relevant phrase is:  "the Force user may roll an Influence power check as part of his dice pool."  Since droids are not affected by Influence, you can't make such a power check, which means you can't add the Force dice as part of the pool.

 

Influence is about imposing your will on another being.  The Force doesn't make you more Charming, it allows you to use the Force to override someone else's resistance to your charm.  But the Force can't override something that isn't there.

 

Basically, if you allow this, you're saying droids are subject to Influence.

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

 

To point this out, yet again, but where in this upgrade are you using the force to influence the mind of the droid, you use the force to make you better at social checks, the force is not directly affecting the droid, or targetting the droid. It affects and targets the user , the boosted social check targets the droid, of course a Gm can rule what they like, however RAW I'd recommend contacting the devs through the support channels if you disagree.

 

This makes no sense to me, and IMHO is contradicted by the wording.  The relevant phrase is:  "the Force user may roll an Influence power check as part of his dice pool."  Since droids are not affected by Influence, you can't make such a power check, which means you can't add the Force dice as part of the pool.

 

Influence is about imposing your will on another being.  The Force doesn't make you more Charming, it allows you to use the Force to override someone else's resistance to your charm.  But the Force can't override something that isn't there.

 

Basically, if you allow this, you're saying droids are subject to Influence.

 

Exactly. 

[syrath 1,316]

This control upgrade is not the basic influence power , it doesn't even upgrade the basic influence power in any way. It is simply described as making you more charismatic and as a result boosting your OWN ability.

The way your are describing it islike linking the enhance force jump power back to its basic power. These are two comp!etly separate effects. The basic Inluence power allows you to use the force to manipulate the emotional state of your target directly, it also allows you to cause strain directly on your opponent. The 15 xp control upgrade does not link back to this ability in any way other than being part of the influence power tree

Again look at the wording of the power. Note a few things , it does not say that you affect an opponent, note it does not mention a target except yourself, it just allows you to add success and advantage to your check, it is not affecting the opponent in any way (though your boosted skill may), if the game had a Charisma stat it may well have been boost CHA, saying it doesn't affect droids is akin to saying presence / cunning / and willpower do not affect social checks against droids, as these also boost your charisma when it comes to the appropriate social check.

Another comparison would be the force move power, you can use the force to move an object , or you can use the enhance: athletics power to make yourself stronger and use your strength to move the object. The first one uses the force to affect the object directly the second you use the force to improve your own strength then use your improved strength to move the object. The latter , the force does not touch the object in any way as it is acting on the user, the former you do not touch the object but let the force do all the work. It is an important distinction.

We can argue this back and forth but since no-one else will I'll send a request to the developers and come back in a couple of weeks when I get a response, I'll also ask about the requirement in this power for dark side pips for coercion, which is something that I'm not sue of in this instance, at least I'll gets RAI answer on that one

Control upgrade: The user gains the ability to enhance HIS arguments and charisma via the Force. When making a Coercion, Charm, Deception, Leadership , or Negotiation check, the user may roll an Influence power check as part of the pool. He may spend pips to gain success or advantage (his choice) per point on the check.

Edited December 3, 2016 by syrath

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

The Social Check upgrade is still beholden to the rules regarding the basic power, It's not a separate power. Influence is a mind affecting power. The whole point is to influence the target's mind towards certain ends. Every use of this power we see in canon and the old EU bear this out. You are not boosting your own abilities, you are manipulating the target's mind to make him/her more agreeable to what you want. 

[syrath 1,316]

The Social Check upgrade is still beholden to the rules regarding the basic power, It's not a separate power. Influence is a mind affecting power. The whole point is to influence the target's mind towards certain ends. Every use of this power we see in canon and the old EU bear this out. You are not boosting your own abilities, you are manipulating the target's mind to make him/her more agreeable to what you want.

Does that mean that enhance : force jump requires an athletics check because that is the basic power in the same tree. They may still fall under the same power tree , but the upgrades are often not tied to the basic power.

There are a number of other examples where a later upgrade is actually a separately trigger ability, these tend to be passive or commit effects.

Another example is forsee , with the first control upgrade , you affect initiative checks and is not linked to the basic power (which looks into the future a lot more) and is a passive ability that boosts initiative checks and doesnt need actively used like the basic power.

Misdirect = is a more specific illusion than that of the basic power, (although the way this one is described it's still a force illusion so wouldnt affect the minds of droids), this allows you to commit dice to add auto threat to combat checks against you.

Seek, has its first control effect provide a completely different effect. The basic power finds items or people, control upgrade upgrades the ability of perception and vigilance checks again this is a passive ongoing effect (once you commit an FD ), unlike thenactive basic power.

There are a few more examples, but if you apply the same r ruling that you apply to the influence control (15xp) upgrade, then using the same logic, since sense cannot be used in its basic power against droids, then none of it's upgrades will work either and if the combat check upgrades dont work then the same logic should apply to similar force talents - reflect and its upgrades in particular is one type that springs to mind. Thus meaning jedi cannot reflect shots from droids or at the very least cannot use senses combat commit upgrades against them.

Edited December 3, 2016 by syrath

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

 

The Social Check upgrade is still beholden to the rules regarding the basic power, It's not a separate power. Influence is a mind affecting power. The whole point is to influence the target's mind towards certain ends. Every use of this power we see in canon and the old EU bear this out. You are not boosting your own abilities, you are manipulating the target's mind to make him/her more agreeable to what you want.

Does that mean that enhance : force jump requires an athletics check because that is the basic power in the same tree. They may still fall under the same power tree , but the upgrades are often not tied to the basic power.

There are a number of other examples where a later upgrade is actually a separately trigger ability, these tend to be passive or commit effects.

Another example is forsee , with the first control upgrade , you affect initiative checks and is not linked to the basic power (which looks into the future a lot more) and is a passive ability that boosts initiative checks and doesnt need actively used like the basic power.

Misdirect = is a more specific illusion than that of the basic power, (although the way this one is described it's still a force illusion so wouldnt affect the minds of droids), this allows you to commit dice to add auto threat to combat checks against you.

Seek, has its first control effect provide a completely different effect. The basic power finds items or people, control upgrade upgrades the ability of perception and vigilance checks again this is a passive ongoing effect (once you commit an FD ), unlike thenactive basic power.

There are a few more examples, but if you apply the same r ruling that you apply to the influence control (15xp) upgrade, then using the same logic, since sense cannot be used in its basic power against droids, then none of it's upgrades will work either and if the combat check upgrades dont work then the same logic should apply to similar force talents - reflect and its upgrades in particular is one type that springs to mind. Thus meaning jedi cannot reflect shots from droids or at the very least cannot use senses combat commit upgrades against them.

 

Sense doesn't work with droids. The specific control upgrade you refer to  isn't sensing the droids anyway. It's sensing the incoming attack. You still can't sense the droids themselves, nor their intentions, nor thoughts, nor "feelings". All you're sensing is the danger of an incoming attack. This is the equivalent of the old WEG Danger Sense power. The only reason why Seek works to find droids is because it specifically states it can be used to find objects. It never has in any incarnation of the game. This includes its upgrades. Reflecting shots is not about sensing the droids. It's anticipating actions. Seek and Sense both work using the person's own senses, not altering a target's. As for Enhance's Force Leap. and the basic power, what does the book state? The base power simply states that When making an Athletics check, you may roll and Enhance power check along with it. All of the control upgrades expand what you can use the Enhance power for. You cannot use Influence at all with Droids. This is because Influence affects the minds of the target. That is what it does. That is all it does. It is the power of mind manipulation.

[syrath 1,316]

The Social Check upgrade is still beholden to the rules regarding the basic power, It's not a separate power. Influence is a mind affecting power. The whole point is to influence the target's mind towards certain ends. Every use of this power we see in canon and the old EU bear this out. You are not boosting your own abilities, you are manipulating the target's mind to make him/her more agreeable to what you want.

Does that mean that enhance : force jump requires an athletics check because that is the basic power in the same tree. They may still fall under the same power tree , but the upgrades are often not tied to the basic power.

There are a number of other examples where a later upgrade is actually a separately trigger ability, these tend to be passive or commit effects.

Another example is forsee , with the first control upgrade , you affect initiative checks and is not linked to the basic power (which looks into the future a lot more) and is a passive ability that boosts initiative checks and doesnt need actively used like the basic power.

Misdirect = is a more specific illusion than that of the basic power, (although the way this one is described it's still a force illusion so wouldnt affect the minds of droids), this allows you to commit dice to add auto threat to combat checks against you.

Seek, has its first control effect provide a completely different effect. The basic power finds items or people, control upgrade upgrades the ability of perception and vigilance checks again this is a passive ongoing effect (once you commit an FD ), unlike thenactive basic power.

There are a few more examples, but if you apply the same r ruling that you apply to the influence control (15xp) upgrade, then using the same logic, since sense cannot be used in its basic power against droids, then none of it's upgrades will work either and if the combat check upgrades dont work then the same logic should apply to similar force talents - reflect and its upgrades in particular is one type that springs to mind. Thus meaning jedi cannot reflect shots from droids or at the very least cannot use senses combat commit upgrades against them.

Sense doesn't work with droids. The specific control upgrade you refer to  isn't sensing the droids anyway. It's sensing the incoming attack. You still can't sense the droids themselves, nor their intentions, nor thoughts, nor "feelings". All you're sensing is the danger of an incoming attack. This is the equivalent of the old WEG Danger Sense power. The only reason why Seek works to find droids is because it specifically states it can be used to find objects. It never has in any incarnation of the game. This includes its upgrades. Reflecting shots is not about sensing the droids. It's anticipating actions. Seek and Sense both work using the person's own senses, not altering a target's. As for Enhance's Force Leap. and the basic power, what does the book state? The base power simply states that When making an Athletics check, you may roll and Enhance power check along with it. All of the control upgrades expand what you can use the Enhance power for. You cannot use Influence at all with Droids. This is because Influence affects the minds of the target. That is what it does. That is all it does. It is the power of mind manipulation.

Except that control upgrade doesn't have you manipulating minds , it does exactly what it says and no more it enhances charisma. The manipulation comes from that enhanced charisma in exactly the same way that Sense jacksa up your senses I've quoted the power verbatim twice now and where does it say in that 15 xp upgrade that you are manipulating minds , it ONLY says you enhance your charisma and your arguments , nothing about targetting anyone, nothing about it upgrading the basic power, it is purely a passive ability, that does to your social skills, what enhance does to athletic and physical and certain agility skills, and manipulate does to mechanics. As I said they are even worded identically.

[bradknowles 4,449]

Except that control upgrade doesn't have you manipulating minds , it does exactly what it says and no more it enhances charisma.

It is a control upgrade for a power that does affect the mind of the target, so therefore it must also affect the mind of the target. The fact that it does so in a slightly different way is not material to the question of whose mind it affects.

Therefore, no part of this power nor any of its upgrades, can be applied to interactions with droids.

[JorArns 372]

I think this issue falls into a common sense interpretation the more I look into it. One of the things that I both like and dislike about this system is the lack of redundant explanations of the rules themselves. It seems the designers of this system were attempting to stray from what might be termed "unnecessary redundancy" as far as the word count required to explain every specific rule. The control upgrade wording seems a little ambiguous, but I have to agree with brad and tramp after some contextual consideration.

[Kaigen 826]

I do think there is some ambiguity in the description, but what it comes down to for me is that I have a hard coming up with a credible narrative mechanism by which Influence could work while solely affecting the force user. Enhance is easy enough to justify because we have a lot of examples of using the Force to create kinetic effects, but how do you make someone more charismatic regardless of situation or audience? Does the Jedi use the Force to stimulate pheromone production? Do they become hyper-aware of social cues? Are they enhancing their vocal cords to affect the timbre of their voice? Even without directly affecting the mind of the other being, would any of that work on a droid?

 

It's a lot easier for me to imagine that Influence is being used to nudge the target's mind in certain directions in a more subtle application of the "You believe this now" power that we clearly see in canon.

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

 

 

 

The Social Check upgrade is still beholden to the rules regarding the basic power, It's not a separate power. Influence is a mind affecting power. The whole point is to influence the target's mind towards certain ends. Every use of this power we see in canon and the old EU bear this out. You are not boosting your own abilities, you are manipulating the target's mind to make him/her more agreeable to what you want.

Does that mean that enhance : force jump requires an athletics check because that is the basic power in the same tree. They may still fall under the same power tree , but the upgrades are often not tied to the basic power.

There are a number of other examples where a later upgrade is actually a separately trigger ability, these tend to be passive or commit effects.

Another example is forsee , with the first control upgrade , you affect initiative checks and is not linked to the basic power (which looks into the future a lot more) and is a passive ability that boosts initiative checks and doesnt need actively used like the basic power.

Misdirect = is a more specific illusion than that of the basic power, (although the way this one is described it's still a force illusion so wouldnt affect the minds of droids), this allows you to commit dice to add auto threat to combat checks against you.

Seek, has its first control effect provide a completely different effect. The basic power finds items or people, control upgrade upgrades the ability of perception and vigilance checks again this is a passive ongoing effect (once you commit an FD ), unlike thenactive basic power.

There are a few more examples, but if you apply the same r ruling that you apply to the influence control (15xp) upgrade, then using the same logic, since sense cannot be used in its basic power against droids, then none of it's upgrades will work either and if the combat check upgrades dont work then the same logic should apply to similar force talents - reflect and its upgrades in particular is one type that springs to mind. Thus meaning jedi cannot reflect shots from droids or at the very least cannot use senses combat commit upgrades against them.

Sense doesn't work with droids. The specific control upgrade you refer to  isn't sensing the droids anyway. It's sensing the incoming attack. You still can't sense the droids themselves, nor their intentions, nor thoughts, nor "feelings". All you're sensing is the danger of an incoming attack. This is the equivalent of the old WEG Danger Sense power. The only reason why Seek works to find droids is because it specifically states it can be used to find objects. It never has in any incarnation of the game. This includes its upgrades. Reflecting shots is not about sensing the droids. It's anticipating actions. Seek and Sense both work using the person's own senses, not altering a target's. As for Enhance's Force Leap. and the basic power, what does the book state? The base power simply states that When making an Athletics check, you may roll and Enhance power check along with it. All of the control upgrades expand what you can use the Enhance power for. You cannot use Influence at all with Droids. This is because Influence affects the minds of the target. That is what it does. That is all it does. It is the power of mind manipulation.

Except that control upgrade doesn't have you manipulating minds , it does exactly what it says and no more it enhances charisma. The manipulation comes from that enhanced charisma in exactly the same way that Sense jacksa up your senses I've quoted the power verbatim twice now and where does it say in that 15 xp upgrade that you are manipulating minds , it ONLY says you enhance your charisma and your arguments , nothing about targetting anyone, nothing about it upgrading the basic power, it is purely a passive ability, that does to your social skills, what enhance does to athletic and physical and certain agility skills, and manipulate does to mechanics. As I said they are even worded identically.

 

Except that's not what that control upgrade says. It does not say that you're "enhancing" your charisma, coercion, Leadership, etc. at all. It says you roll the Influence roll as part of your dice pool. Nothing more. It is not a "passive" ability. It is very active. And yes, it is upgrading the base power, hence why it's called an upgrade. All of the Enhance power upgrades expand that power's ability to enhance that user's natualr physical abilities. All of the Manipulate upgrades expand upon that power's base ability to affect machines. All Influence Upgrades expand upon that power's ability to manipulate a target's mind to various ends. 

 

 

Except that control upgrade doesn't have you manipulating minds , it does exactly what it says and no more it enhances charisma.

It is a control upgrade for a power that does affect the mind of the target, so therefore it must also affect the mind of the target. The fact that it does so in a slightly different way is not material to the question of whose mind it affects.

Therefore, no part of this power nor any of its upgrades, can be applied to interactions with droids.

 

 

 

I think this issue falls into a common sense interpretation the more I look into it. One of the things that I both like and dislike about this system is the lack of redundant explanations of the rules themselves. It seems the designers of this system were attempting to stray from what might be termed "unnecessary redundancy" as far as the word count required to explain every specific rule. The control upgrade wording seems a little ambiguous, but I have to agree with brad and tramp after some contextual consideration.

 

 

I do think there is some ambiguity in the description, but what it comes down to for me is that I have a hard coming up with a credible narrative mechanism by which Influence could work while solely affecting the force user. Enhance is easy enough to justify because we have a lot of examples of using the Force to create kinetic effects, but how do you make someone more charismatic regardless of situation or audience? Does the Jedi use the Force to stimulate pheromone production? Do they become hyper-aware of social cues? Are they enhancing their vocal cords to affect the timbre of their voice? Even without directly affecting the mind of the other being, would any of that work on a droid?

 

It's a lot easier for me to imagine that Influence is being used to nudge the target's mind in certain directions in a more subtle application of the "You believe this now" power that we clearly see in canon.

Exactly. 

[syrath 1,316]

Except that's not what that control upgrade says. It does not say that you're "enhancing" your charisma, coercion, Leadership, etc. at all. It says you roll the Influence roll as part of your dice pool. Nothing more.

Eh?

Control upgrade: The user gains the ability to enhance HIS arguments and charisma via the Force. When making a Coercion, Charm, Deception, Leadership , or Negotiation check, the user may roll an Influence power check as part of the pool. He may spend pips to gain success or advantage (his choice) per point on the check.

The inportant part is in bold here, you say it doesnt enhance your charisma, well read the full description of the upgrade on the influence pages and read the part I have bolded out here, because it says exactly that it does.

Edited December 5, 2016 by syrath