The Control upgrade for Influence

[Benjan Meruna 797]

A discussion on another thread got me thinking about the Control upgrade for Influence that lets you add Force die to social checks.  The upgrades states that the pips may be spent to gain success or advantage (users choice) per point on the check.  This got me thinking:

 

1.  Can the power be used to gain both success and advantage on the same roll?  (I.e. "I got 3 force points, I want 2 successes and 1 advantage"?)

2.  If not, does the player have to declare the usage of Force points (for success or advantage) before or after making the roll?  (i.e.  "Any Force points are going to be used for..."?)

 

Thus far in my game, we've played it the latter method.  Players have always wanted one or the other, and declared it before the roll without any prompting from me, so we just kind of went with that style.  Rereading the rules as written, however, it seems to me like there's nothing there that states that this is required and a player can pick and choose what they want when they're looking at the results of the roll.

 

I don't think this is overpowered as most players are going to really have to work to get a high enough Force rating to get enough pips to split between the results, but I was curious to see how other people played this.

[whafrog 10,384]

We go with option one, you can decide after you see the results of the other dice.

[HappyDaze 10,108]

In every die roll made for this system, the choices on how to spend the results don't occur until after the results are generated. This is no different; the answer is #1.

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

By RAW and RAI, it's option #1, though you're generally better off spending those Force points on just successes, since the only thing that advantage is good for is being a tie-breaker in case you get the same number of successes as an NPC.

[HappyDaze 10,108]

By RAW and RAI, it's option #1, though you're generally better off spending those Force points on just successes, since the only thing that advantage is good for is being a tie-breaker in case you get the same number of successes as an NPC.

Are you talking about Influence or initiative?

[syrath 1,316]

Its option 1, however, while I disagree with the following ruling the order66 podcast called out that using coercion with an influence requires dark side pips and charm light side.

Personally I disagree , because of the sidebar specifying that if you use influence to cause a negative emotion you do need dark side pips and a positive light side, the control upgrade also calls out you are using the force to improve your arguments and rationalisations, it isn't being used to affect someone other than yourself, its improving your charm and coercion etc skills. So in effect you aren't using the force on someone else, however it is down to a gm call and if they feel dark side is needed for coercion then I can understand why they would feel that way. Regardless though using coercion causes conflict and this conflict is subject to the additional 2-5 extra conflict for using it in non selfless means , so its quite easy to rack up 10 in one check.

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

Its option 1, however, while I disagree with the following ruling the order66 podcast called out that using coercion with an influence requires dark side pips and charm light side.

Personally I disagree , because of the sidebar specifying that if you use influence to cause a negative emotion you do need dark side pips and a positive light side, the control upgrade also calls out you are using the force to improve your arguments and rationalisations, it isn't being used to affect someone other than yourself, its improving your charm and coercion etc skills. So in effect you aren't using the force on someone else, however it is down to a gm call and if they feel dark side is needed for coercion then I can understand why they would feel that way. Regardless though using coercion causes conflict and this conflict is subject to the additional 2-5 extra conflict for using it in non selfless means , so its quite easy to rack up 10 in one check.

Nope. You are using Influence on the other person to make him "more suggestible" to your "social checks". This is what we see Obi Wan do to the drug dealer in AotC and to the Stormtroopers in ANH, Luke does to Bob Fortuna in RotJ, and Rey do in TFA. Hence Obi-Wan's statement that, "The Force can have a strong influence in the weak minded."

[Benjan Meruna 797]

 

Its option 1, however, while I disagree with the following ruling the order66 podcast called out that using coercion with an influence requires dark side pips and charm light side.

Personally I disagree , because of the sidebar specifying that if you use influence to cause a negative emotion you do need dark side pips and a positive light side, the control upgrade also calls out you are using the force to improve your arguments and rationalisations, it isn't being used to affect someone other than yourself, its improving your charm and coercion etc skills. So in effect you aren't using the force on someone else, however it is down to a gm call and if they feel dark side is needed for coercion then I can understand why they would feel that way. Regardless though using coercion causes conflict and this conflict is subject to the additional 2-5 extra conflict for using it in non selfless means , so its quite easy to rack up 10 in one check.

Nope. You are using Influence on the other person to make him "more suggestible" to your "social checks". This is what we see Obi Wan do to the drug dealer in AotC and to the Stormtroopers in ANH, Luke does to Bob Fortuna in RotJ, and Rey do in TFA. Hence Obi-Wan's statement that, "The Force can have a strong influence in the weak minded."

 

 

Wrong Control upgrade   This isn't the one that can make someone believe something untrue or adopt an emotional state, this is the one that lets you add Force Die to your social checks.  To quote the power upgrade description:

 

The user gains the ability to enhance his arguments and charisma via the Force.

 

This isn't done by manipulating the mind directly, because that is already explicitly covered by the other Control upgrade.  Instead of being a Force Power check, it's a skill check with Force Dice added.

[HappyDaze 10,108]

Regardless though using coercion causes conflict and this conflict is subject to the additional 2-5 extra conflict for using it in non selfless means , so its quite easy to rack up 10 in one check.

Syrath, you have some very weird ideas about what generates Conflict.

 

When police demand that a suspect drops his weapon and puts his hands in the air, they are using Coercion. If a Force-using cop has Influence and uses it to boost his Coercion roll, are you honestly telling me that he's going to rack up Conflict for it?

[Benjan Meruna 797]

 

Regardless though using coercion causes conflict and this conflict is subject to the additional 2-5 extra conflict for using it in non selfless means , so its quite easy to rack up 10 in one check.

Syrath, you have some very weird ideas about what generates Conflict.

 

When police demand that a suspect drops his weapon and puts his hands in the air, they are using Coercion. If a Force-using cop has Influence and uses it to boost his Coercion roll, are you honestly telling me that he's going to rack up Conflict for it?

 

 

You're a loose cannon, Starkiller!  Hand over your badge!

[HappyDaze 10,108]

 

 

Regardless though using coercion causes conflict and this conflict is subject to the additional 2-5 extra conflict for using it in non selfless means , so its quite easy to rack up 10 in one check.

Syrath, you have some very weird ideas about what generates Conflict.

 

When police demand that a suspect drops his weapon and puts his hands in the air, they are using Coercion. If a Force-using cop has Influence and uses it to boost his Coercion roll, are you honestly telling me that he's going to rack up Conflict for it?

 

 

You're a loose cannon, Starkiller!  Hand over your badge!

 

And this is why it's better to just shoot them...

[Aetrion 441]

As far as I understand this system it's always based around the idea that you roll dice and then spend the results, so you wouldn't have to announce what you're going to use force pips for before you roll.

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

 

 

Its option 1, however, while I disagree with the following ruling the order66 podcast called out that using coercion with an influence requires dark side pips and charm light side.

Personally I disagree , because of the sidebar specifying that if you use influence to cause a negative emotion you do need dark side pips and a positive light side, the control upgrade also calls out you are using the force to improve your arguments and rationalisations, it isn't being used to affect someone other than yourself, its improving your charm and coercion etc skills. So in effect you aren't using the force on someone else, however it is down to a gm call and if they feel dark side is needed for coercion then I can understand why they would feel that way. Regardless though using coercion causes conflict and this conflict is subject to the additional 2-5 extra conflict for using it in non selfless means , so its quite easy to rack up 10 in one check.

Nope. You are using Influence on the other person to make him "more suggestible" to your "social checks". This is what we see Obi Wan do to the drug dealer in AotC and to the Stormtroopers in ANH, Luke does to Bob Fortuna in RotJ, and Rey do in TFA. Hence Obi-Wan's statement that, "The Force can have a strong influence in the weak minded."

 

 

Wrong Control upgrade   This isn't the one that can make someone believe something untrue or adopt an emotional state, this is the one that lets you add Force Die to your social checks.  To quote the power upgrade description:

 

The user gains the ability to enhance his arguments and charisma via the Force.

 

This isn't done by manipulating the mind directly, because that is already explicitly covered by the other Control upgrade.  Instead of being a Force Power check, it's a skill check with Force Dice added.

 

Yes, you are manipulating their mind, but in a different fashion than the "Emotion Upgrade".The Forcd Power, Influence is al about mind manipulation. That is what it does. That is all it does. All of the upgrades are designed for different means of influencing another being's mind. This is what enables the "enhancements of your "Arguments". You're making the target more suggestible, not altering their emotional state. That's two totally different effects. So, no, I was not talking about the emotional alteration upgrade. I specifically mean the Social check upgrade. It does work by making the target more suggestible to your social checks, and this is the reason for the bonuses. 

Edited November 30, 2016 by Tramp Graphics

[syrath 1,316]

Regardless though using coercion causes conflict and this conflict is subject to the additional 2-5 extra conflict for using it in non selfless means , so its quite easy to rack up 10 in one check.

Syrath, you have some very weird ideas about what generates Conflict.

 

When police demand that a suspect drops his weapon and puts his hands in the air, they are using Coercion. If a Force-using cop has Influence and uses it to boost his Coercion roll, are you honestly telling me that he's going to rack up Conflict for it?

I'd suggest reading both the definition of coercion , and also using the rulebooks definition. Coercion requires you to instill fear in the person you are coercing otherwise its charm/negotiation or leadership. Using fear is a path to the dark side. Remember some conflict doesn't make you a dark sider but consistently using fear to get your own way, no matter how well meaning is going to lead you down that path. Using coercion according to the conflict chart is 2 conflict, using a dark side point is one and the motive for the use can add an additional 1-5 to the act (or 1-5 per dark side pip depending how you read the call out. Since most coercion is done in cold blood that 2+4(or 5)+1 per dark side pip, using coercion can be a dangerous tightrope to walk. Now if you factor in the order66 method where you HAVE to use dark side pips , if you roll 4 then its 2(using fear)+4(dark side pips)+(1-5, motive depending) so minimum 7 maximum 12 if you used 4 dark pips

[HappyDaze 10,108]

syrath, I know the rules pretty well, and I'm fully unconvinced that your "per pip" interpretations are even remotely correct.

 

And yes, a cop demanding you drop what you are holding and put your hands up is using fear (of the consequences of noncompliance), but not necessarily in a way that invites Conflict. Similarly, a Jedi standing with an ignited light saber and taking a fighting stance can be an act of Coercion that doesn't necessarily inflict Conflict.

Edited November 30, 2016 by HappyDaze

[Benjan Meruna 797]

 

 

 

Its option 1, however, while I disagree with the following ruling the order66 podcast called out that using coercion with an influence requires dark side pips and charm light side.

Personally I disagree , because of the sidebar specifying that if you use influence to cause a negative emotion you do need dark side pips and a positive light side, the control upgrade also calls out you are using the force to improve your arguments and rationalisations, it isn't being used to affect someone other than yourself, its improving your charm and coercion etc skills. So in effect you aren't using the force on someone else, however it is down to a gm call and if they feel dark side is needed for coercion then I can understand why they would feel that way. Regardless though using coercion causes conflict and this conflict is subject to the additional 2-5 extra conflict for using it in non selfless means , so its quite easy to rack up 10 in one check.

Nope. You are using Influence on the other person to make him "more suggestible" to your "social checks". This is what we see Obi Wan do to the drug dealer in AotC and to the Stormtroopers in ANH, Luke does to Bob Fortuna in RotJ, and Rey do in TFA. Hence Obi-Wan's statement that, "The Force can have a strong influence in the weak minded."

 

 

Wrong Control upgrade   This isn't the one that can make someone believe something untrue or adopt an emotional state, this is the one that lets you add Force Die to your social checks.  To quote the power upgrade description:

 

The user gains the ability to enhance his arguments and charisma via the Force.

 

This isn't done by manipulating the mind directly, because that is already explicitly covered by the other Control upgrade.  Instead of being a Force Power check, it's a skill check with Force Dice added.

 

Yes, you are manipulating their mind, but in a different fashion than the "Emotion Upgrade".The Forcd Power, Influence is al about mind manipulation. That is what it does. That is all it does. All of the upgrades are designed for different means of influencing another being's mind. This is what enables the "enhancements of your "Arguments". You're making the target more suggestible, not altering their emotional state. That's two totally different effects. So, no, I was not talking about the emotional alteration upgrade. I specifically mean the Social check upgrade. It does work by making the target more suggestible to your social checks, and this is the reason for the bonuses. 

 

 

Where does it say it targets the other person at all?  It's still a social check, not a Force check.  The description says that it enhances your arguments and charisma, i.e. it helps you formulate your word choice, posture, and other slight mannerism that make you more overall likeable, threatening, etc.  At no point does the power suggest a specific target other than the player themselves.

[syrath 1,316]

syrath, I know the rules pretty well, and I'm fully unconvinced that your "per pip" interpretations are even remotely correct.

And yes, a cop demanding you drop what you are holding and put your hands up is using fear (of the consequences of noncompliance), but not necessarily in a way that invites Conflict. Similarly, a Jedi standing with an ignited light saber and taking a fighting stance can be an act of Coercion that doesn't necessarily inflict Conflict.

Coercion is a functional use of fear. Notice how most Jedi draws their weapons only once threat is already determined. And my calculations on that check wasn't per pip, that was just 1-5 for the act itself,if it were per pip the one act of coercion using 4 dark side pips could go 15 points higher ie a range of 10-27, which at the high end is definitely way too much for one act of coercion dark side fury fuelled or not.

Just to clarify my original calculation

Using fear (is any form of coercion regardless of motive) -2 point of conflict

Using dark side points 1 per point, so a roll of 4 used to perform coercion (which may require dark side pips to even use with coercion depending on how you use the rules regarding dark side pips for negative emotions)

Finally an additional 1-5 points of conflict depending on your motive. A selfless act may get you away with this, but you could argue it isn't possible to coerce selflessly as other options are always open to you. So I'd rule 1 if you were trying to save lives, but if you were trying to get a confession out of someone , ala Anakin trying to get the Clawdite to talk in Attack of the Clones I'd say was closer to a 4.

So if you take all the above that's a minimum 7 points , even 2 dark side pips is giving you a minimum 5 and I'm assuming aN FS character with the FR upgrade here with only 2 FR.

Edited November 30, 2016 by syrath

[JorArns 372]

p. 324 of the F&D core rulebook does indeed say coercion can give conflict in both the table (2 conflict: "Coercion and Threatening with Violence: The PC threatens someone with violence, or coerces the person to do his bidding against the person's will") and in the following paragraphs under Bestowing Conflict: "Gray areas, such as using [Dark Side pip] results to generate (force points) for a selfish but not a truly evil action receives a minimum of + 1 Conflict, but possibly 2 to 5 more Conflict. The GM 's determination and ruling is final."

 

The emphasis is mine. Not every table will use the same manner to determine whether or not additional conflict is bestowed upon a PC. However, the above is RAW. Remember, intent also matters when determining the resulting conflict generated.

 

Also, I forgot to add this: "A PC receives 1 Conflict per [dark side pip] result used to generate [force points] during a Force power check."

Edited November 30, 2016 by JorArns

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

 

 

 

 

Its option 1, however, while I disagree with the following ruling the order66 podcast called out that using coercion with an influence requires dark side pips and charm light side.

Personally I disagree , because of the sidebar specifying that if you use influence to cause a negative emotion you do need dark side pips and a positive light side, the control upgrade also calls out you are using the force to improve your arguments and rationalisations, it isn't being used to affect someone other than yourself, its improving your charm and coercion etc skills. So in effect you aren't using the force on someone else, however it is down to a gm call and if they feel dark side is needed for coercion then I can understand why they would feel that way. Regardless though using coercion causes conflict and this conflict is subject to the additional 2-5 extra conflict for using it in non selfless means , so its quite easy to rack up 10 in one check.

Nope. You are using Influence on the other person to make him "more suggestible" to your "social checks". This is what we see Obi Wan do to the drug dealer in AotC and to the Stormtroopers in ANH, Luke does to Bob Fortuna in RotJ, and Rey do in TFA. Hence Obi-Wan's statement that, "The Force can have a strong influence in the weak minded."

 

 

Wrong Control upgrade   This isn't the one that can make someone believe something untrue or adopt an emotional state, this is the one that lets you add Force Die to your social checks.  To quote the power upgrade description:

 

The user gains the ability to enhance his arguments and charisma via the Force.

 

This isn't done by manipulating the mind directly, because that is already explicitly covered by the other Control upgrade.  Instead of being a Force Power check, it's a skill check with Force Dice added.

 

Yes, you are manipulating their mind, but in a different fashion than the "Emotion Upgrade".The Forcd Power, Influence is al about mind manipulation. That is what it does. That is all it does. All of the upgrades are designed for different means of influencing another being's mind. This is what enables the "enhancements of your "Arguments". You're making the target more suggestible, not altering their emotional state. That's two totally different effects. So, no, I was not talking about the emotional alteration upgrade. I specifically mean the Social check upgrade. It does work by making the target more suggestible to your social checks, and this is the reason for the bonuses. 

 

 

Where does it say it targets the other person at all?  It's still a social check, not a Force check.  The description says that it enhances your arguments and charisma, i.e. it helps you formulate your word choice, posture, and other slight mannerism that make you more overall likeable, threatening, etc.  At no point does the power suggest a specific target other than the player themselves.

 

Influence, by its very definition is affecting someone else, not yourself. Enhance covers affecting yourself. All of the upgrades for Influence are designed to influence another person. The one upgrade influences their emotions. the other Control upgrade influences there how receptive they are to your Social checks. The very fact that the boost you get to your social checks is limited to only the person or persons within the limit of the base power and any Magnitude upgrades you have bears this out. If you were actually boosting your own "charisma" it would affect all social checks with everyone in earshot. But this is not the case. It only affects those within the base and your magnitude upgrades. And, if you notice, the Magnitude upgrades are all connected to the Social checks Control upgrade. They aren't connected to the Emotion upgrade. Thus the Socal checks upgrade only affect those whom you can actually affect with the Influence power. IF it were actually enhancing your "charisma" or "presence" then it would affect everybody.  IT's also in the very opening description of the power what it does (not the base modifiers, the opening description). "The character may attempt to guide, shape, and even twist the thoughts and feelings of others. The first Control upgrade alters thoughts, the second Control upgrade alters feelings. 

Edited November 30, 2016 by Tramp Graphics

[syrath 1,316]

Under the INFLUENCE SPECIAL RULE sidebar it states

When influence is used to guide and shape thoughts.....

Under the control upgrade I refer to

The user gains the ability to enhance his arguments and charisma via the force.

Now where in the control upgrade does it say anything about using the force to guide another's thoughts. You are using the force to improve yourself, not manipulate another, you are then using that improved skill to manipulate another. Depending on what you are asking your target to do, that may be conflict worthy and also be added to by the motive modifier, but using the control upgrade itself IMO should not , neither should this upgrade be subject to the INFLUENCE SPECIAL RULE in any way. Of course any GM may rule otherwise, its just that I don't happen to agree with the way order66 described it.

[Benjan Meruna 797]

 

 

 

 

 

Its option 1, however, while I disagree with the following ruling the order66 podcast called out that using coercion with an influence requires dark side pips and charm light side.

Personally I disagree , because of the sidebar specifying that if you use influence to cause a negative emotion you do need dark side pips and a positive light side, the control upgrade also calls out you are using the force to improve your arguments and rationalisations, it isn't being used to affect someone other than yourself, its improving your charm and coercion etc skills. So in effect you aren't using the force on someone else, however it is down to a gm call and if they feel dark side is needed for coercion then I can understand why they would feel that way. Regardless though using coercion causes conflict and this conflict is subject to the additional 2-5 extra conflict for using it in non selfless means , so its quite easy to rack up 10 in one check.

Nope. You are using Influence on the other person to make him "more suggestible" to your "social checks". This is what we see Obi Wan do to the drug dealer in AotC and to the Stormtroopers in ANH, Luke does to Bob Fortuna in RotJ, and Rey do in TFA. Hence Obi-Wan's statement that, "The Force can have a strong influence in the weak minded."

 

 

Wrong Control upgrade   This isn't the one that can make someone believe something untrue or adopt an emotional state, this is the one that lets you add Force Die to your social checks.  To quote the power upgrade description:

 

The user gains the ability to enhance his arguments and charisma via the Force.

 

This isn't done by manipulating the mind directly, because that is already explicitly covered by the other Control upgrade.  Instead of being a Force Power check, it's a skill check with Force Dice added.

 

Yes, you are manipulating their mind, but in a different fashion than the "Emotion Upgrade".The Forcd Power, Influence is al about mind manipulation. That is what it does. That is all it does. All of the upgrades are designed for different means of influencing another being's mind. This is what enables the "enhancements of your "Arguments". You're making the target more suggestible, not altering their emotional state. That's two totally different effects. So, no, I was not talking about the emotional alteration upgrade. I specifically mean the Social check upgrade. It does work by making the target more suggestible to your social checks, and this is the reason for the bonuses. 

 

 

Where does it say it targets the other person at all?  It's still a social check, not a Force check.  The description says that it enhances your arguments and charisma, i.e. it helps you formulate your word choice, posture, and other slight mannerism that make you more overall likeable, threatening, etc.  At no point does the power suggest a specific target other than the player themselves.

 

Influence, by its very definition is affecting someone else, not yourself. Enhance covers affecting yourself. All of the upgrades for Influence are designed to influence another person. 

 

 

 

And Move covers telekinesis and manipulating objects via the Force...except for Bind, which can be used to Force Choke someone.  The Force powers are not neat little categories, they DO overlap occasionally.  There are a great many force powers that enhance your rolls  (Sense, Forsee, Seek) that are not Enhance.  Influence is one of them.

 

All the power name means is that it is used to influence others.  Whether this is done by directly altering ones perception of reality ("these aren't the droids you're looking for") or subtly guiding the Force user into the best possible winning smile and clever word choice, both are used to Influence.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Benjan Meruna

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

Under the INFLUENCE SPECIAL RULE sidebar it states

When influence is used to guide and shape thoughts.....

Under the control upgrade I refer to

The user gains the ability to enhance his arguments and charisma via the force.

Now where in the control upgrade does it say anything about using the force to guide another's thoughts. You are using the force to improve yourself, not manipulate another, you are then using that improved skill to manipulate another. Depending on what you are asking your target to do, that may be conflict worthy and also be added to by the motive modifier, but using the control upgrade itself IMO should not , neither should this upgrade be subject to the INFLUENCE SPECIAL RULE in any way. Of course any GM may rule otherwise, its just that I don't happen to agree with the way order66 described it.

It's done by making the target more receptive though. The power which enhances your own abilities is Enhance. Influence is all about altering other people's thoughts and feelings. The Social checks upgrade alters people's thoughts using your Social checks as a medium. You are speaking while using the Force in order to Influence the target and guide the target's thoughts.  The user is not enhancing his own natural abilities, rather how the target responds to them.

 

Obi-Wan (using Influence:  "You don't want to sell me Death Sticks"

 

Drug Dealer (under the effects of Influence): "I don't want to sell you Death Sticks."

 

Obi-Wan (using Influence) : "You want to go home and rethink your life."

 

Drug Dealer (under effects of Influence): "I want to go home and rethink my life."

 

That exchange right there is a prime example of the Social Checks upgrade and specifically how it's  affecting the target's suggestibility, not making Obi-Wan inherently more "charismatic". 

 

The Special Rule section also specifically states that Influence is used to guide the thoughts and emotions of targets. Even the main description of the power calls it the "Mind Trick". 

[JorArns 372]

 

Under the INFLUENCE SPECIAL RULE sidebar it states

When influence is used to guide and shape thoughts.....

Under the control upgrade I refer to

The user gains the ability to enhance his arguments and charisma via the force.

Now where in the control upgrade does it say anything about using the force to guide another's thoughts. You are using the force to improve yourself, not manipulate another, you are then using that improved skill to manipulate another. Depending on what you are asking your target to do, that may be conflict worthy and also be added to by the motive modifier, but using the control upgrade itself IMO should not , neither should this upgrade be subject to the INFLUENCE SPECIAL RULE in any way. Of course any GM may rule otherwise, its just that I don't happen to agree with the way order66 described it.

It's done by making the target more receptive though. The power which enhances your own abilities is Enhance. Influence is all about altering other people's thoughts and feelings. The Social checks upgrade alters people's thoughts using your Social checks as a medium. You are speaking while using the Force in order to Influence the target and guide the target's thoughts.  The user is not enhancing his own natural abilities, rather how the target responds to them.

 

Obi-Wan (using Influence:  "You don't want to sell me Death Sticks"

 

Drug Dealer (under the effects of Influence): "I don't want to sell you Death Sticks."

 

Obi-Wan (using Influence) : "You want to go home and rethink your life."

 

Drug Dealer (under effects of Influence): "I want to go home and rethink my life."

 

That exchange right there is a prime example of the Social Checks upgrade and specifically how it's  affecting the target's suggestibility, not making Obi-Wan inherently more "charismatic". 

 

The Special Rule section also specifically states that Influence is used to guide the thoughts and emotions of targets. Even the main description of the power calls it the "Mind Trick". 

 

 

While I agree with Tramp Graphics as far as that's how I see this particular power working in-universe, the Control upgrade in question actually says this in its expanded description on p. 295 F&D CRB: "The user gains the ability to enhance his arguments and charisma via the Force."

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

 

 

Under the INFLUENCE SPECIAL RULE sidebar it states

When influence is used to guide and shape thoughts.....

Under the control upgrade I refer to

The user gains the ability to enhance his arguments and charisma via the force.

Now where in the control upgrade does it say anything about using the force to guide another's thoughts. You are using the force to improve yourself, not manipulate another, you are then using that improved skill to manipulate another. Depending on what you are asking your target to do, that may be conflict worthy and also be added to by the motive modifier, but using the control upgrade itself IMO should not , neither should this upgrade be subject to the INFLUENCE SPECIAL RULE in any way. Of course any GM may rule otherwise, its just that I don't happen to agree with the way order66 described it.

It's done by making the target more receptive though. The power which enhances your own abilities is Enhance. Influence is all about altering other people's thoughts and feelings. The Social checks upgrade alters people's thoughts using your Social checks as a medium. You are speaking while using the Force in order to Influence the target and guide the target's thoughts.  The user is not enhancing his own natural abilities, rather how the target responds to them.

 

Obi-Wan (using Influence:  "You don't want to sell me Death Sticks"

 

Drug Dealer (under the effects of Influence): "I don't want to sell you Death Sticks."

 

Obi-Wan (using Influence) : "You want to go home and rethink your life."

 

Drug Dealer (under effects of Influence): "I want to go home and rethink my life."

 

That exchange right there is a prime example of the Social Checks upgrade and specifically how it's  affecting the target's suggestibility, not making Obi-Wan inherently more "charismatic". 

 

The Special Rule section also specifically states that Influence is used to guide the thoughts and emotions of targets. Even the main description of the power calls it the "Mind Trick". 

 

 

While I agree with Tramp Graphics as far as that's how I see this particular power working in-universe, the Control upgrade in question actually says this in its expanded description on p. 295 F&D CRB: "The user gains the ability to enhance his arguments and charisma via the Force."

 

Yes, but the "how" he does it is through altering the target's receptiveness. The is because it only affects the specific target(s) not everyone in earshot. For example. If you only have the ability to affect two Stormtroopers, and are dealing with three. The Social Checks upgrade will only work on two of those Stormtroopers, not all three. Thus, the power is still affecting the target, not enhancing the user. 

[The Shy Ion 502]

Under the INFLUENCE SPECIAL RULE sidebar it states

When influence is used to guide and shape thoughts.....

Under the control upgrade I refer to

The user gains the ability to enhance his arguments and charisma via the force.

Now where in the control upgrade does it say anything about using the force to guide another's thoughts. You are using the force to improve yourself, not manipulate another, you are then using that improved skill to manipulate another. Depending on what you are asking your target to do, that may be conflict worthy and also be added to by the motive modifier, but using the control upgrade itself IMO should not , neither should this upgrade be subject to the INFLUENCE SPECIAL RULE in any way. Of course any GM may rule otherwise, its just that I don't happen to agree with the way order66 described it.

It's done by making the target more receptive though. The power which enhances your own abilities is Enhance. Influence is all about altering other people's thoughts and feelings. The Social checks upgrade alters people's thoughts using your Social checks as a medium. You are speaking while using the Force in order to Influence the target and guide the target's thoughts.  The user is not enhancing his own natural abilities, rather how the target responds to them.

 

Obi-Wan (using Influence:  "You don't want to sell me Death Sticks"

 

Drug Dealer (under the effects of Influence): "I don't want to sell you Death Sticks."

 

Obi-Wan (using Influence) : "You want to go home and rethink your life."

 

Drug Dealer (under effects of Influence): "I want to go home and rethink my life."

 

That exchange right there is a prime example of the Social Checks upgrade and specifically how it's  affecting the target's suggestibility, not making Obi-Wan inherently more "charismatic". 

 

The Special Rule section also specifically states that Influence is used to guide the thoughts and emotions of targets. Even the main description of the power calls it the "Mind Trick". 

While I agree that the power is used to make the other person more suggestible, this is an example of the other Control upgrade.