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Gunnar79

Investigating if there are no clues?

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This question arose during yesterdays game: are you allowed to use an investigate action if there are no clue tokens left (or even if there have never been any) at your location? For example to allow you to play cards dependant on that particular action, or, in this case, to activate an asset (Scavenging).

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Yup. Using the Investigation action isn't dependent on whether there are any clues at your location. This is handy for taking advantage of low shroud locations and using cards like Burglary and such.

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Right as malcogent said. Also take not some cards do require clues. Like Roland's weakness cover up. There must be clues on the location to remove a clue from cover up. Even though you don't actually remove a clue from the location while affected by cover up.

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The important thing to note here is the difference between "investigating", and "discovering clues". If there are no clues you CAN investigate (and therefore use cards that are dependent on investigating) - but you CANNOT discover clues and therefore not use any card effects that are dependent on discovering clues

 

Examples; if there aren't any clues:

  • Roland cannot discover a clue through his special ability when he defeats a monster
  • you cannot remove a clue from "cover-up",
  • you cannot play "evidence"
  • etc.

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I believe it is in the game rules that you can't do something that won't actually do something...  Meaning - you can't investigate if there are no clues, and no other investigate triggers.  You don't have to use all 3 actions, but you can't "waste" them either. 

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I believe it is in the game rules that you can't do something that won't actually do something...  Meaning - you can't investigate if there are no clues, and no other investigate triggers.  You don't have to use all 3 actions, but you can't "waste" them either. 

 

Correct, you have to have to potential to actually change the game-state by initiating your action.

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I believe it is in the game rules that you can't do something that won't actually do something...  Meaning - you can't investigate if there are no clues, and no other investigate triggers.  You don't have to use all 3 actions, but you can't "waste" them either. 

 

This rule only applies to playing cards and triggering abilities, it does not apply to performing basic actions. Further, you don't assess 'other triggers' (e.g. Scavenging), you only assess the effect of the triggered ability that you want to initiate.

 

Futher, it has been confirmed by Matt Newman that you can always Investigate a location, whether it has clues or not, whether you're doing the standard Investigate action, or triggering a card ability with the Investigate action designator.

Edited by mplain

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Futher, it has been confirmed by Matt Newman that you can always Investigate a location, whether it has clues or not, whether you're doing the standard Investigate action, or triggering a card ability with the Investigate action designator.

 

Just to confirm - does that mean you CAN potentially just stand around and waste actions by investigating a location without any effect in mind? I am not sure when this would ever be more useful then gaining a resource or drawing a card so this might be a mere academic question but just in case it comes into play at some point I wanted to check whether I get this right.

Edited by ParinorB

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Just to confirm - does that mean you CAN potentially just stand around and waste actions by investigating a location without any effect in mind? I am not sure when this would ever be more useful then gaining a resource or drawing a card so this might be a mere academic question but just in case it comes into play at some point I wanted to check whether I get this right.

That's right. There's no basic restriction in the rules reference that I'm aware of which forbids throwing an Investigate against your location's shroud.

 

As for an overly contrived situation to demonstrate this, let's imagine that Roland is playing scenario 1 of the core campaign on Hard difficulty. He's in the Hallway and he desperately needs 1 clue from the Cellar. However, the Cellar has a Fog (+2 shroud) and Roland has the Haunted weakness (-1 to all his stats) and he has no Flashlights nor Perceptions in his deck. The encounter deck has thus far refused to toss him an enemy. Taking matters into his own hands, on the first action of his turn he decides to just investigate the barren Hallway.

 

He draws a skull (-2) because he is a lucky boy. This causes him to fail, which in turn causes a ghoul to spawn on him. For his second action, he dances the ghoul into the Cellar, taking an attack of opportunity. For his third action he hacks away at it with his machete and grabs that elusive clue.

Edited by Noaloha

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Just to confirm - does that mean you CAN potentially just stand around and waste actions by investigating a location without any effect in mind? I am not sure when this would ever be more useful then gaining a resource or drawing a card so this might be a mere academic question but just in case it comes into play at some point I wanted to check whether I get this right.

 

 

You can also end your turn without taking all your actions, if you wish, so I'm not sure why you'd use pointless investigation to waste time...  It's pretty common for the special tokens to do bad things even apart from the check.

 

RR, pg 25: An investigator may end his or her turn early if there are no other actions he or she wishes to perform.

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I think I understand this, but just want to make sure.  

 

If I investigate, the clue comes from the 'bank', but if I discover it comes off of the location itself (if there are clues on/in that location).

 

Therefore you can always investigate at a location, like the hallway where 0 clues are there for discovery, but because of low shroud is ideal place to investigate.

 

Thanks in advance.

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I think I understand this, but just want to make sure.  

 

If I investigate, the clue comes from the 'bank', but if I discover it comes off of the location itself (if there are clues on/in that location).

 

Therefore you can always investigate at a location, like the hallway where 0 clues are there for discovery, but because of low shroud is ideal place to investigate.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

No.

 

Clues never come from the bank - unless a card effect explicitly says so (there is one such location in Scenario #2).

 

You can always Investigate. If you investigate successfully, you get to the 'discover clues' framework event (which can be replaced as a whole with e.g. Burglary).

 

When you 'discover clues' (plural), you normally discover 1 clue (singular) (can be modified by e.g. Deduction).

 

You can only discover a clue if there is at least one clue on your location. If there is, you grab it (or replace this with e.g. Cover Up)

 

If there are no clues on your location, then you don't discover any clues during the 'discover clues' framework event.

Edited by mplain

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I think I understand this, but just want to make sure.  

 

If I investigate, the clue comes from the 'bank', but if I discover it comes off of the location itself (if there are clues on/in that location).

 

Therefore you can always investigate at a location, like the hallway where 0 clues are there for discovery, but because of low shroud is ideal place to investigate.

 

Thanks in advance.

You have it wrong, so I'm glad you wanted to make sure!

 

'Investigate' is a skill check that you can take against a location's shroud value. If successful, this permits you to discover a clue at that location.

 

Whenever you see 'discover', just think of it as the physical movement of your arm reaching over to a location card on your table, picking up a clue token there, and bringing the token back over to your token pool. That's all it is. 'Discover' is just a result of the investigate action (or some ability specified on a card). You do not take clues from the bank(!). There isn't a limitless potential supply of clues to pull from. The finite number of clues in a given scenario is carefully and precisely pre-determined by the location cards' quantity specifying how many should be placed on them. For typical play, you investigate or otherwise discover your clues only from those that are remaining on a location. This isn't to say that you can *never* take tokens from the pool, but such a permission will be explicitly stated whenever it is possible and should be very much treated as an exception.

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