How do you balance the force in mixed games?

[Benjan Meruna 797]

Personally, my concern wouldn't be about some theoretical force user and non-force guy with thousands of XP each competing in their niches.  OTOH, what about what happens if say the Force Using Sage and say the non-force Charmer are both sick of failing Athletics checks involved in their space adventures with their 1 Brawn races.  It's Star Wars, it seems like everyone ends up running around, climbing on stuff, jumping from vehicles, etc right?  It seems like even at FR 2 or 3, a few Force Dice being added to physical checks from Enhance are going to be more effective at keeping the character from sucking at basic 'space hero' type stuff than adding a few skill ranks to a 1 stat.  

 

For example, 15 XP buys Enhance and lets it work on Athletics and Resilience, so our Brawn 1 character who is partially through Sage has a G and 2FD to jump and not get poisoned.  OTOH, 15 XP buys 2 ranks in class skills, or one and a half ranks in non career skills.  Going from a G to Y against 2 difficulty is not exactly the biggest improvement, and putting 2 ranks into Athletics leaves our Twilek with like a 50% chance to succeed.  Versus the Force user who has a 23% chance before Enhance, can always get at least 2 successes with strain and a flip (and has more than a 50/50 of getting +2 without needing to flip).  That seems strictly in the Force User's favor, and they covered Resilience too, and this required that the other guy had Athletics as a class skill to boot.

 

Keep in mind: in order to use those dice on the test in the first place, the Sage has to not have them committed.  No Sense upgrade, Battle Meditation maintenance, or various other uses of the Force.  There's more at work than that 15xp here, because having those Force die available to use means sacrificing their use somewhere else.

 

Also, the Charmer has it easy in this scenario: Works Like a Charm lets them sub in their Presence for their Brawn, and will now be rolling multiple green die with almost certainly better odds of success.

 

Force Users and non-Force Users in this system are supremely balanced.  I'm normally very open to house rules myself (everyone has their own preferences), but this is one area where I really question the need for them.

[kkuja 317]

 

Charmed Bounty Hunter To Tied Up PC: you seem like a really great guy, we could have been good friends under other circumstances, unfortunately you have a death mark on you and I always complete contracts, because without a good reputation I couldn't get work. I'm truly sorry about this, but I can give you a quick and painless death. <BLASTER TO THE BACK OF THE HEAD>

Charm won’t solve that problem. But if they’re a FR6+ character, then they’ve probably got other Force powers that will.

 

 

I think Elias has a point. I have a player with a social machine character in our campaign, and I have decided I will try to partially get rid of just using one roll to solve the whole situation. Jay Little's comments about social combats (Order 66 podcast, episode 6) gave me some ideas about how to solve more complex social situations with skill tests (mainly, handle them more like combat where combatants try to beat each others strain threshold). That way I might allow the bounty hunter to release the PC after some time if player roleplays and rolls well. But one skill or one test would definitely not be enough for that discussion.

And to Brad: not if it's min-maxed character, who only has FR 6, and influence power, but nothing more (which OP seems to (rightfully) think is the most IMBA OP situation). If it's that kind of one trick pony, then it may deserve the blaster to head. And if it's fully rounded FR 6 character, then WHY THE HECK HAS GM PUT A SIMPLE BOUNTY HUNTER AGAINST HIM? PCs with that power level should have totally different kind of challenges. Even in D&D, you cannot put level 20 character to scenario designed for level 1, and expect them to be challenged.

 

IMO: There are situation which just cannot be solved by charm or negotiation etc. That's one of the GMs jobs to define what is possible and how hard it is. This is "yes, and..." system, but not everything is possible. Generally PC cannot destroy planet with just a blaster rifle just shooting it, regardless of how min-maxed shooter he is. 

[kkuja 317]

Wasn't it Keith Kappel, who was in Order 66 podcast high XP episode telling about his tests with making jedi council members as characters and playing with them. Characters were around 2000 XP characters, and still very playable and vulnerable.

 

BTW, in this system it is highly advisable to add encounters which cannot be won only with fighting. IMO It should also be remembered to some time add pure combat encounters to game. Just as adding non combat encounters encourages combat oriented characters to invest in non combat skills, combat encounters may encourage non combat characters to invest in skill which enhance their survivability or make them more useful in combat.

[Benjan Meruna 797]

Charming someone means they like you. It doesn't mean they'll do what you say.

Charmed Bounty Hunter To Tied Up PC: you seem like a really great guy, we could have been good friends under other circumstances, unfortunately you have a death mark on you and I always complete contracts, because without a good reputation I couldn't get work. I'm truly sorry about this, but I can give you a quick and painless death. <BLASTER TO THE BACK OF THE HEAD>

BLAM.

 

 

Looking at the skill description on Charm, specifically uses for it:

 

 

*Persuading an individual to make a special exception to his usual practices through flattery, flirtation, and grace relies on Charm

 

*Appeals to a target's better nature-even if it does not exist- generally require a character to use Charm.  These sorts of requests may require the target to go out of his way to aid the character without any hope of remuneration

 

Seems pretty clear that the skill is intended to get people to do things for you and make exceptions to their rules.

 

What a GM SHOULD do in your scenario is account for the following:

 

-Charm is opposed by Cool.  A combat-focused NPC like a bounter hunter should have, at the very least, a decently high cool skill

-Add in setback die according to the situation.  If this is a VERY ridgid bounty hunter, it should be very difficult (4 setback) to sway him, but possible.

-As a corollary to the above, ask the player what, exactly, they are saying to the NPC.  If what they say is lackluster or outright damaging, add in yet more setback die.

-Don't forget you can give Talents to NPCs, too.  A Bounty Hunter really should have a few ranks in Nobody's Fool to upgrade social checks made against them for exactly this reason

-Don't be afraid to flip that destiny point!

 

If all else fails, you can run social combat as described elsewhere, with both sides losing strain until someone finally gives.  In particular if it's a very tricky target and situation.  But saying that a successful charm check can't be used to get someone to do what you want is like saying that a successful combat check doesn't mean that you hit your target.

[benskywalker 715]

If your force user has 6 force rating and multiple high level force abilities, I can't imagine what your non force users have. At 600+ xp you could have 3 full trees with multiple high ranks in important skills. A jury rigged auto fire heavy rifle with yyyyyg could do alot of damage. A politico with all the social talents could say almost anything. I guess I don't understand the fear of force users. This comes up more and more with GM who started with Edge and now have to deal with new PCs and scenarios. Stretch your creative mind and counter anything they are doing that's "broken" in your mind. Create "force dampeners" that stop all force powers. Split the group and force a jedi vs sith fight.

Bring along some Ysalamiri. Lol!

[HIDragonstar 1]

I'm trying to figure out what how someone manged to get to FR6.  What is the character build that he is looking at?  I can't find any rules that increases the FR outside of the Talent Trees...

 

How much Xp is needed to make the character he is asking about?

[mouthymerc 4,483]

I would suggest that if you have played so long and handed out/acquired so much XP that this has become an issue then it is time to start a new game with new characters. But I have yet to hear of anyone having this problem and there are players that have been playing since the game came out with the same characters. Maybe focus on enjoying the game rather than looking for "What ifs?"

[Magnus Arcanus 559]

I'm trying to figure out what how someone manged to get to FR6.  What is the character build that he is looking at?  I can't find any rules that increases the FR outside of the Talent Trees...

 

How much Xp is needed to make the character he is asking about?

 

It can be done with a singular focus on getting a FR of 6 with about 550 to 600 XP. But it means a very one dimensional character who can't do much else other than roll six force dice.

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

It can also be done by advancing through enough Specializations over an extended period of  time. It's just a very expensive proposition. 

[Decorus 672]

I have an 890 force rating 4 character with a 3 int 4 will and 4 presence

There is a character who is about 200+ xp ahead of me and he has all of a 2 force rating and 6 agi/Int.

 

I'm 70 xp from 5 and could have gotten it months ago except I've been filling out force powers skills and talents I need.

I'm stuck on trees since there really isn't another spec that really fits my character right now without going outside of force trees. I suppose I could pick up Makashi, but not really feeling it.

 

Really the only thing keeping me from being really munchy is it just isn't something I'm interested in.

 

That being said it would be patheticly easy for me to make a character with only 15 xp who could kill me in a heartbeat without the force.

 

Honestly non force using characters are just plain better then force users just from quality of talents.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Decorus

[Rossbert 76]

My main thoughts for fixing the problem as presented are twofold.

1. Slow down advancement. The longer it takes to get to 800+ XP the longer before it happens. Try handing out half the usual XP reward and give more story rewards if you intend the same characters to run for a very long campaign. This only postpones the question though.

2. Institute a cap. A little obvious perhaps, but there may be a limit to how much one can understand and use the force. Maybe mere flesh can only do so much, maybe too much knowledge leads to you joining the force entirely, maybe you just know it all and there is no more connection to make. Pick a narrative reason you like and cap it like anything else.

[Kael 1,865]

The topic very specifically is about how to stop force users from becoming too powerful in long running games. Any examples that show them as being balanced at lower XP are kind of irrelevant to my original point. 

 

I think your original point is somewhat irrelevant. I'm not saying this to be mean but frankly ...... you haven't built your case very well. Your point has time and time again been shot down by more experienced forum users who have either done the math or who have played at that level. People have asked you repeatedly to provide a concrete example, an actual character sheet with an actual xp count so that we can examine just how it break downs (though from experience and math that has already been provided I don't think it would break down). 

 

At this point you either need to provide an actual character and a real example of how it breaks down or stop complaining that people aren't answering the question the way you want them too (I'm assuming you want someone to agree with you at this point). Because people have done their best to answer your question and show you that you're worrying over nothing and instead of providing a concrete example of how they might be wrong you just keep saying it's wrong and ignoring the reality. 

[Decorus 672]

His whole case is utterly destroyed by the Jury Rig using Bounty hunter that can effectively break the game with starting xp and just continue to get more and more broken as time goes on.

[bradknowles 4,449]

His whole case is utterly destroyed by the Jury Rig using Bounty hunter that can effectively break the game with starting xp and just continue to get more and more broken as time goes on.

Jury Rig can break the game in some ways, and is the easiest way to do so. Been there, done that.

But there are ways in which powerful Force users can break the game that go so far beyond what Jury Rig is capable of doing. It will take more time and effort to get to that point, but you can get close at CHARGEN with the right selection of species, F&D career/specialties, and buying the right Force powers. Also been there, and done that.

In both cases, the GM and player(s) have a responsibility to do what is necessary to keep the game from being broken, otherwise no one is going to be having any fun, and there’s no point to playing the game.

I disagree with a lot of what Aetrion is saying, but there is a core issue that does actually have to be dealt with in one way or another. I’ve laid out my solutions to this problem, as have others.

But so far, Aetrion doesn’t seem to be willing to accept those answers.

[Aetrion 441]

I haven't actually posted in this thread for over two weeks. I also fully accept that at typical levels the balance is perfectly fine, but I do still think that as you get up there into the thousands of XP force users eventually pull ahead where specialist characters are concerned.

 

 

For example, let's say your character is a mechanics specialist. Being a force sensitive crafter is pretty even to a non-force sensitive crafter at first, in fact, you might easily argue that it's a bit weaker, because many of the talents like Jury Rig, which are extremely strong are replaced with talents like Imbue, which have drastic downsides in the force user trees. What you gain in access to the force you miss out on in boxes of Toughened and Enduring and other such goodies that the non-force classes have.

 

But now imagine a long running open game where people play multiple times a week, and you'll eventually get to the point where the person insisting that they don't want to use the force is looking at nothing but duplicate talents and more ranks in Solid Repairs, while the force user has a couple force ratings, is trained in Manipulate, allowing them to generate even triumphs on demand, has long since dipped into some none force trees and stacked Intuitive Improvements and Tinkerer, has their ranks in Jury Rig as well as Imbue, and so on.

 

I mean I have no problem acknowledging that in most games the balance isn't an issue, but people seem to be unwilling to even conceive of circumstances other than what happens at their particular game table. When you set up an open game designed to let people play as much as possible with multiple GMs for example you wind up with an entirely different dynamic than if you have a private campaign where one GM can keep a tight reign on everything that goes on.

[mouthymerc 4,483]

Never met a game that couldn't be broken. Doesn't mean they need to be fixed. Only that, as always, there needs to be some oversight.

[Kaigen 826]

But now imagine a long running open game where people play multiple times a week, and you'll eventually get to the point where the person insisting that they don't want to use the force is looking at nothing but duplicate talents and more ranks in Solid Repairs, while the force user has a couple force ratings, is trained in Manipulate, allowing them to generate even triumphs on demand, has long since dipped into some none force trees and stacked Intuitive Improvements and Tinkerer, has their ranks in Jury Rig as well as Imbue, and so on.

 

I mean I have no problem acknowledging that in most games the balance isn't an issue, but people seem to be unwilling to even conceive of circumstances other than what happens at their particular game table. When you set up an open game designed to let people play as much as possible with multiple GMs for example you wind up with an entirely different dynamic than if you have a private campaign where one GM can keep a tight reign on everything that goes on.

 

I see what you're saying, but the situation you're describing involves two characters in the same game, both unflinchingly devoted towards the same specialization with no deviation for session after session, week after week, month after month. I have never seen two characters in a single game completely devoted to doing the exact same thing and unwilling to branch out into other areas of expertise. Even in the period where they are roughly equal in capability, I'd expect them to get tired of constantly stepping on each other's toes long before you reach the point where the force user starts to pull ahead. If not, then it would seem that the players are so invested in other aspects of the game that they don't care to make comparisons between their characters. This just seems like a vanishingly rare circumstance.

[Aetrion 441]

Depends on how you play the game. In a regular campaign, yea, it's unlikely two people wind up making very similar characters that both earn XP to the point where the force based character has snapped up enough of the regular talents to simply be better. In an open game on the other hand where dozens of characters play in dozens of games, all interchangeably it's a possibility that could occur.

 

Personally I really love playing open games because it's fun to be able to play more often and have characters that are part of an open universe rather than bound to one specific storyline, but there is always that issue of when do characters become too powerful. Sure, you can just handle it like Pathfinder Society and essentially force characters into retirement if they get to a certain point, but that kind of defeats the purpose of allowing people to have characters that aren't tied down to a campaign that eventually ends. 

[Benjan Meruna 797]

I haven't actually posted in this thread for over two weeks. I also fully accept that at typical levels the balance is perfectly fine, but I do still think that as you get up there into the thousands of XP force users eventually pull ahead where specialist characters are concerned.

 

 

Make a character that proves this.  Don't just say that they exist, actually put the time in to create this character you are so afraid of so we can see it.

[Aetrion 441]

I gave an example of it in the very post you're quoting. I mean please, detail your standards of proof for me, because I smell a goalpost with a hyperdrive.

[FuriousGreg 1,667]

 

I haven't actually posted in this thread for over two weeks. I also fully accept that at typical levels the balance is perfectly fine, but I do still think that as you get up there into the thousands of XP force users eventually pull ahead where specialist characters are concerned.

 

 

Make a character that proves this.  Don't just say that they exist, actually put the time in to create this character you are so afraid of so we can see it.

 

Well, if you are going to do this then you have to do it in 20-25 EXP chunks taking into account your PC is a one or two trick pony that will likely fail at anything but Force Ability checks...

[mouthymerc 4,483]

Star Wars Pun-Pun. This is what this is. Such an edge case as to never be an issue.

Edited December 16, 2016 by mouthymerc

[Merc1138 23]

I gave an example of it in the very post you're quoting. I mean please, detail your standards of proof for me, because I smell a goalpost with a hyperdrive.

No, you didn't. Again you have been repeatedly asked to give an xp figure, and yet again you've ignored it. You can't complain about a goalpost with a hyperdrive when people have been asking you to set the goalpost at least a dozen times. No one can move a goalpost that you refuse to set.

[Aetrion 441]

No, you didn't. Again you have been repeatedly asked to give an xp figure, and yet again you've ignored it. You can't complain about a goalpost with a hyperdrive when people have been asking you to set the goalpost at least a dozen times. No one can move a goalpost that you refuse to set.

 

The issue isn't how much XP it takes, the issue is what talents stack together for certain effects.

 

When I say "A force sensitive character can combine Intuitive Improvements and Tinkerer to put more hardpoints on a weapon than any non-force sensitive character ever could" then "But how much XP does that cost?!" isn't a counter argument, it's just pedantic nonsense. A valid counter argument might be showing that two non-force mechanic trees have benefits that go beyond the benefit of combining a force and non-force mechanic tree, but that isn't the case is it?

 

The issue is that force sensitive characters can stack force talents and regular talents to attain a degree of specialization that isn't possible if you forego force talents. The exact point where these combinations happen isn't at issue, but simply whether or not they can happen. 

[Kael 1,865]

Depends on how you play the game. In a regular campaign, yea, it's unlikely two people wind up making very similar characters that both earn XP to the point where the force based character has snapped up enough of the regular talents to simply be better. In an open game on the other hand where dozens of characters play in dozens of games, all interchangeably it's a possibility that could occur.

 

 

 

I pretty much played in open online games for over 15 years and in that time as both a player and a GM I have never seen two players build the exact same character and doggedly play them out with no deviation to set them apart. What you describe doesn't happen in actual play. It's an theoretical that no one will ever have to worry about. 

 

 

 

The issue is that force sensitive characters can stack force talents and regular talents to attain a degree of specialization that isn't possible if you forego force talents. The exact point where these combinations happen isn't at issue, but simply whether or not they can happen. 

 

Incorrect. EXP is important because if you don't list an actual exp amount then no one can judge if it is actual something that would occur. Theoretically speaking the game will break down if you allow a PC to take all the specs and combine all the talents. However, unless we assume that the GM is handing out infinite xp the concern that this breaks the game is immaterial. It would never happen. And if it does happen then you deserve to break the game if your GM handed out infinite xp without thinking through what that means. 

Therefore so long as you keep it in this vague realm of xp doesn't matter you will never be able to show that it is a real problem that really would occur in a real game. 

 

This is, btw, how games are balanced. When they are playtested and powers are combined they take into account how much xp it would take to get to that point and then adjust the power level accordingly. There is no way to show your example is game breaking without showing how much xp it took you to get to the breaking point. Because there is a level of xp in which the breaking point will be reached, but then the game becomes rather moot as it is unlikely you will reach that point.

 

No game is broken proof. But there is a point at which if you break the game no one cares because it is unlikely to occur in real play. What you keep saying seems to fall into that category and you refuse to back it with anything other than you disagree.