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dvirsmail

Blink Spell question

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Talisman Revised 4th Edition FAQ and Errata, v1.1 states:

 

If a character is moved to a different space any time during the encounter, he continues with a new encounter in the new space. Exception:
If a character is defeated during a battle or psychic combat and is forced to move to a new space, he cannot encounter the new space and his turn immediately ends.

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The reason I'm asking is because I found this in the Q&A document under the Reaper expansion (which I do not own):

 

Misdirection

Q: Can a character cast the Misdirection Spell on a character in the Inner Region?

A: Yes, but Misdirection may not be cast on a character on the Crown of Command or a character who is turning back. The player who cast Misdirection on a character in the Inner Region can either move his opponent forward to the next space or back one space towards the Plain of Peril.

If the player chooses to move his opponent back one space towards the Plain of Peril, the character does not encounter the space and this is not considered to be turning back. In this case, the character may continue advancing toward the Crown of Command on his following turn as normal. 

 

 

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The reason I'm asking is because I found this in the Q&A document under the Reaper expansion (which I do not own):

 

Misdirection

Q: Can a character cast the Misdirection Spell on a character in the Inner Region?

A: Yes, but Misdirection may not be cast on a character on the Crown of Command or a character who is turning back. The player who cast Misdirection on a character in the Inner Region can either move his opponent forward to the next space or back one space towards the Plain of Peril.

If the player chooses to move his opponent back one space towards the Plain of Peril, the character does not encounter the space and this is not considered to be turning back. In this case, the character may continue advancing toward the Crown of Command on his following turn as normal. 

 

 

 

 

Different card special rules?

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So with these two rules when Blink is cast on a character in the Inner Region you can move them one space forward or back (but not if they are on the crown of command space or if they are turning back). If you move a character in the Inner to a space they have already encountered they do not encounter the space again and do not "count as" turning back.

This makes sense unless there is something else somewhere in the rules that adds more on this subject. 

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So with these two rules when Blink is cast on a character in the Inner Region you can move them one space forward or back (but not if they are on the crown of command space or if they are turning back). If you move a character in the Inner to a space they have already encountered they do not encounter the space again and do not "count as" turning back.

This makes sense unless there is something else somewhere in the rules that adds more on this subject. 

This spell was actually cast on me as I was in the inner region in our last game.  We weren't sure how to handle it.  We discussed it and came to the consensus that I had not made the decision to turn back (as stated here), but that I did have to encounter the space again (since I was moving there).  Since we were using the Cataclysm board, I had to encounter the Vampire Tower (I think that's it--I'm still not entirely familiar with the Cataclysm board yet) again, and it nearly killed me.  I had to use my Lucky Charm to prevent losing my last few lives, which made winning much more difficult for me.

My point in all this is that our discussion came to the understanding that the space needed to be encountered again, precisely because I wasn't turning back.

 

I'd be curious to learn what the rationale was for stating that the space didn't need to be encountered again.

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So with these two rules when Blink is cast on a character in the Inner Region you can move them one space forward or back (but not if they are on the crown of command space or if they are turning back). If you move a character in the Inner to a space they have already encountered they do not encounter the space again and do not "count as" turning back.

This makes sense unless there is something else somewhere in the rules that adds more on this subject. 

This spell was actually cast on me as I was in the inner region in our last game.  We weren't sure how to handle it.  We discussed it and came to the consensus that I had not made the decision to turn back (as stated here), but that I did have to encounter the space again (since I was moving there).  Since we were using the Cataclysm board, I had to encounter the Vampire Tower (I think that's it--I'm still not entirely familiar with the Cataclysm board yet) again, and it nearly killed me.  I had to use my Lucky Charm to prevent losing my last few lives, which made winning much more difficult for me.

My point in all this is that our discussion came to the understanding that the space needed to be encountered again, precisely because I wasn't turning back.

 

I'd be curious to learn what the rationale was for stating that the space didn't need to be encountered again.

 

Sorry so you moved to the Frozen Spire moved passed the turn after then someone cast the Blink spell on you and made you move back to the Frozen Spire again is that right?

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Sorry so you moved to the Frozen Spire moved passed the turn after then someone cast the Blink spell on you and made you move back to the Frozen Spire again is that right?

 

Yes.  (Thanks for correcting my terminology.  I didn't feel like getting my board out to look up the name.)

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Sorry so you moved to the Frozen Spire moved passed the turn after then someone cast the Blink spell on you and made you move back to the Frozen Spire again is that right?

 

Yes.  (Thanks for correcting my terminology.  I didn't feel like getting my board out to look up the name.)

 

So with the Misdirection FAQ ruling the effect of Blink is the same as Misdirection thus it uses the same rules (even though the cards have different effects if cast at different times in different regions. So they are not "different card special rules" if used this way in the inner region.

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Sorry so you moved to the Frozen Spire moved passed the turn after then someone cast the Blink spell on you and made you move back to the Frozen Spire again is that right?

 

Yes.  (Thanks for correcting my terminology.  I didn't feel like getting my board out to look up the name.)

 

So with the Misdirection FAQ ruling the effect of Blink is the same as Misdirection thus it uses the same rules (even though the cards have different effects if cast at different times in different regions. So they are not "different card special rules" if used this way in the inner region.

 

I'm not the one who said "different card special rules."  That was DomaGB.

 

I'm curious as to their rationale for stating that the space isn't encountered again.  That simply doesn't make any sense to me.  The space only isn't encountered if you turn back.  This isn't turning back.  It's just going in the wrong direction.

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I'm not the one who said "different card special rules."  That was DomaGB.

I'm curious as to their rationale for stating that the space isn't encountered again.  That simply doesn't make any sense to me.  The space only isn't encountered if you turn back.  This isn't turning back.  It's just going in the wrong direction.

 

I never said it was you that said it I just quoted it was said.

 

The rationale is it's a FAQ ruling for another card that has the same effect if cast on the character in the Inner region. There is a clear link to both effects thus it uses its ruling. It states it acts like turning back without the player actually turning back thus the space if encountered before is not encountered again. This is a fair and clear ruling for this effect.

 

Ignoring the FAQ ruling by saying "oh its a different card with a different rule" is just No saying. And ignoring the whole purpose of the FAQ. That's is to answer most of the very tricky rule problems in the game.

 

What we need is a new FAQ but "tough luck" with that :).

Edited by Uvatha

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You're doing it again.  You're discussing things that I didn't discuss, but you are addressing them to me.  STOP IT.  YOUR POINTS ARE UTTERLY IRRELEVANT TO THE QUESTION THAT I AM ASKING.  YOU SHOULD BE ADDRESSING THESE POINTS TO DOMAGB, NOT ME.

 

I have zero disagreement whatsoever that it's the same ruling for both Misdirection and Blink.  ZERO DISAGREEMENT.

 

My question is why did they make that ruling in the first place?  Why did they declare that going the wrong direction means not encountering the space?  It doesn't matter if you move the wrong direction on account of Misdirection or Blink.  That also is utterly irrelevant.

 

I want to know the rationale for not encountering the space again, regardless of the means for getting there.

 

Ultimately, it's a rhetorical question.

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You're doing it again.  You're discussing things that I didn't discuss, but you are addressing them to me.  STOP IT.  YOUR POINTS ARE UTTERLY IRRELEVANT TO THE QUESTION THAT I AM ASKING.  YOU SHOULD BE ADDRESSING THESE POINTS TO DOMAGB, NOT ME.

 

I have zero disagreement whatsoever that it's the same ruling for both Misdirection and Blink.  ZERO DISAGREEMENT.

 

My question is why did they make that ruling in the first place?  Why did they declare that going the wrong direction means not encountering the space?  It doesn't matter if you move the wrong direction on account of Misdirection or Blink.  That also is utterly irrelevant.

 

I want to know the rationale for not encountering the space again, regardless of the means for getting there.

 

Ultimately, it's a rhetorical question.

Oh ok sorry, I was just trying to answer the question.

 

I think the reason why they made the ruling in the first place was because the Inner Region was designed to allow players to turn back if they lost a talisman or ended up in a nasty place and know they are stuffed. And then allow them to return heal and then try again. And with what Misdirection did and its effect on its die roll for movement players did not know if it could still work on a player in the Inner Region (because you don't roll a die for movement in there) so the FAQ ruling answers both the moving back issue and the rolling a die roll for movement issue.

 

I hope that helped.

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What would make more sense to me would be to have one of two effects take place:

 

Either:

 

A) The character goes back one space, but still encounters the space

 

or

 

B) The character goes back one space and it counts as the character turning back, thus forcing the character to go all the way back to the Plain of Peril.

 

Right now the FAQ mixes the two situations, and that's just plain inconsistent to me.

 

Frankly, I think option B is a better option.  Once you start back--for whatever reason--you must go all the way back and start over.

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What would make more sense to me would be to have one of two effects take place:

 

Either:

 

A) The character goes back one space, but still encounters the space

 

or

 

B) The character goes back one space and it counts as the character turning back, thus forcing the character to go all the way back to the Plain of Peril.

 

Right now the FAQ mixes the two situations, and that's just plain inconsistent to me.

 

Frankly, I think option B is a better option.  Once you start back--for whatever reason--you must go all the way back and start over.

Well, it's just like turning back but without the player having to continue to travel back. I personally have no problem with the FAQ ruling. It makes perfect sense to me. But of course you may play it anyway you want really.

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Well, it's just like turning back but without the player having to continue to travel back. I personally have no problem with the FAQ ruling. It makes perfect sense to me.

There are four aspects of turning back:

1) You declare that you are turning back.

2) You move back the way you came.

3) You do not encounter any of the spaces.

4) You proceed all the way to the Plain of Peril.

 

With Blink or Misdirection you definitely do not do 1 or 4.  2 is forced upon you.

 

3 is the one that is in question.  And it still makes no sense for the character not to encounter it.  You says that "it's just like turning back," except that it is actually almost nothing like turning back.  The only thing that it has in common with turning back is that you move in the opposite direction.  Again, you don't declare that you are going back and you don't proceed all the way to the Plain of Peril.

 

So from that perspective, you are still proceeding toward the Crown of Command, even if you wind up taking a step backwards in the process.  Your direction is still toward the goal, even if you get knocked back a space.

 

Because your intent is still to move your character toward the Crown of Command you should still be required to encounter the space.  Your intent in the inner region has not changed.  As such, you must still encounter the space.

 

The more I read of the FAQ the more I come to realize what a rather useless document it is.  It includes several rulings and explanations that defy logic and sound thinking.

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Well, it's just like turning back but without the player having to continue to travel back. I personally have no problem with the FAQ ruling. It makes perfect sense to me.

There are four aspects of turning back:

1) You declare that you are turning back.

2) You move back the way you came.

3) You do not encounter any of the spaces.

4) You proceed all the way to the Plain of Peril.

 

With Blink or Misdirection you definitely do not do 1 or 4.  2 is forced upon you.

 

3 is the one that is in question.  And it still makes no sense for the character not to encounter it.  You says that "it's just like turning back," except that it is actually almost nothing like turning back.  The only thing that it has in common with turning back is that you move in the opposite direction.  Again, you don't declare that you are going back and you don't proceed all the way to the Plain of Peril.

 

So from that perspective, you are still proceeding toward the Crown of Command, even if you wind up taking a step backwards in the process.  Your direction is still toward the goal, even if you get knocked back a space.

 

Because your intent is still to move your character toward the Crown of Command you should still be required to encounter the space.  Your intent in the inner region has not changed.  As such, you must still encounter the space.

 

The more I read of the FAQ the more I come to realize what a rather useless document it is.  It includes several rulings and explanations that defy logic and sound thinking.

 

Never the less there is a FAQ ruling and that's that. You can think its useless (from a point of view) and also think it has explanations that defy logic (from a point of view) I certainly don't think any of the FAQ rulings defies logic (matter on what type of logic you are meaning though because Talisman is hardly logical) or is useless (I think it address all it needed to at time of printing).

 

If you give examples I can try to explain why the FAQ say such a ruling.

 

But of course, if the FAQ ruling upsets you so much then change it. No-one's forcing you to play that way. Just make sure if you do all players know before you start the game.

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Hm..

 

Blink
Cast after a character completes his move, on any character. Teleport that character 1 space in any direction.

 

Misdirection
Cast on another character at the start of his turn. The character takes his move as normal, except that you decide which direction he moves in.

 

Core rules p.19

Movement in the Inner Region
The die is not rolled for movement in the Inner Region.
Instead, a character can move only one space per turn there.
The encounter instructions on each space in the Inner Region
must be completed before a character can move on toward the
Crown of Command.

 

Faq:

Misdirection

Q: Can a character cast the Misdirection Spell on a character
in the Inner Region?
A: Yes, but Misdirection may not be cast on a character on
the Crown of Command or a character who is turning back.
The player who cast Misdirection on a character in the Inner
Region can either move his opponent forward to the next
space or back one space towards the Plain of Peril.
If the player chooses to move his opponent back one space
towards the Plain of Peril, the character does not encounter
the space and this is not considered to be turning back. In
this case, the character may continue advancing toward the
Crown of Command on his following turn as normal.

 

 

Misdirection and blink are different spells that can be used for very different things (Using Blink to skip one step forward in the Inner Region..) so I don't think the Misdirection Faq entry should be used for Blink.

I'd say yes, you have to encounter the space again (you are teleported back, not moving back) but I don't think either option is clearly supported in the rules.

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The only difference in both Spells is the timing and Blinks hopping like effect. Other than that another player (or the same player) is moving the character so the same effect in that regard. But I do see what you're saying a simple house rule will fix this all up.

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