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Babaganoosh

Scavenger Crane not realistic - is that a problem for anyone else?

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This is a game where Kanan Jarrus and Ezra Bridger can share a ship with Rey.

A game where Darth Vader and Kylo Ren can hang out.

Leaving aside the obvious 'realism in star wars lololol' comment (because i think realism isn't your intented wording here), the fact that long dead characters can ride with ones who weren't even born when they died, means you need to suspend your disbelief pretty damned hard to begin with.

A space crane doesn't even measure on my 'wtf' scale of X-wing mechanics.

 

Future Han can dog-fight against with The Han of Star Wars Past.

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I guess the question would be...

 

A "scavenger crane" implemented outright to THEMATICALLY be a 'scavenger' would grab an upgrade that had been equipped to the destroyed ship, which you have an open slot for, and let you equip it.  That does seem a lot more limiting, so many it wouldn't have a roll-for-effect mechanic.

 

But FFG didn't go that way - why, though?  What sort of game-breaking combination would that version allow?

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I guess the question would be...

 

A "scavenger crane" implemented outright to THEMATICALLY be a 'scavenger' would grab an upgrade that had been equipped to the destroyed ship, which you have an open slot for, and let you equip it.  That does seem a lot more limiting, so many it wouldn't have a roll-for-effect mechanic.

 

But FFG didn't go that way - why, though?  What sort of game-breaking combination would that version allow?

 

I don't think they want to deal with the zillion possible interactions of that and in any case it's very not-random.  You get what you want out of it automatically, you just roll to see if you can do it again.

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couldnt care less

Green dice would **** it harder than any dial could

 

Well if not, you, there would be plenty of others rioting in the streets.  No way that most people would meekly accept an Interceptor with a crap dial.

right but if youre using that as a reason for my fluff > gameplay, youre missing the point entirely. This is more stupid thing made for no real reason > fluff

There is no reason to introduce a slow interceptor, esp when you already have other slow ships in the game

Slow interceptors wouldnt actually benefit gameplay at all

But it does let interesting new gameplay elements slide in regardless of how little sense they make when you stop to think about it

 

 

Maybe I'm not making my point clear.  Let's say that you take the TIE Bomber and TIE Interceptor, and switch every stat.  So you have a 2/2/6/0 TIE interceptor with the TIE Bomber dial and upgrade bar, etc., and vice versa with the TIE Bomber.  Switch the skins on the expansion, if you will.  Would that be cool for you?

 

Theme is important, coherence to the 'reality' of the star wars universe is important.  If we do or don't feel like the game we play reflects a battle in the star wars universe, it matters.

Edited by Babaganoosh

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couldnt care less

Green dice would **** it harder than any dial could

 

Well if not, you, there would be plenty of others rioting in the streets.  No way that most people would meekly accept an Interceptor with a crap dial.

right but if youre using that as a reason for my fluff > gameplay, youre missing the point entirely. This is more stupid thing made for no real reason > fluff

There is no reason to introduce a slow interceptor, esp when you already have other slow ships in the game

Slow interceptors wouldnt actually benefit gameplay at all

But it does let interesting new gameplay elements slide in regardless of how little sense they make when you stop to think about it

 

 

Maybe I'm not making my point clear.  Let's say that you take the TIE Bomber and TIE Interceptor, and switch every stat.  So you have a 2/2/6/0 TIE interceptor with the TIE Bomber dial and upgrade bar, etc., and vice versa with the TIE Bomber.  Switch the skins on the expansion, if you will.  Would that be cool for you?

 

 

I don't give a **** which model has what stats. As long as the model clearly belongs to the card I'm good to go. 

 

 

*Note: I play a spaceship miniatures game that happens to be themed with an IP I am a fan of. I am not playing a Star Wars game that happens to be a miniatures spaceship game. Give me a similar game with miniatures that I didn't need to paint or assemble and an active local community and I would likely have gotten into it even if it didn't use licensed IP.

Edited by WWHSD

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If it stole an upgrade from the dead ship we would have an endless supply of "What if?" rule arguments.

Either it would have to have a literal list of cards you cant steal (Titles/crew probably being the only one i'd say would be flatout no) or you are going to easily get small ship only stuff on a large ship, vice versa, faction only stuff on the wrong faction, ordnance on ships that dont have any possible way of firing them normally, or cards that completely clash and break the game because they were never intended to interact.

 

Making it reflip just solves a ton of headaches in the future, while still offering quite a bit of flexibility.

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couldnt care less

Green dice would **** it harder than any dial could

 

Well if not, you, there would be plenty of others rioting in the streets.  No way that most people would meekly accept an Interceptor with a crap dial.

right but if youre using that as a reason for my fluff > gameplay, youre missing the point entirely. This is more stupid thing made for no real reason > fluff

There is no reason to introduce a slow interceptor, esp when you already have other slow ships in the game

Slow interceptors wouldnt actually benefit gameplay at all

But it does let interesting new gameplay elements slide in regardless of how little sense they make when you stop to think about it

 

Maybe I'm not making my point clear.  Let's say that you take the TIE Bomber and TIE Interceptor, and switch every stat.  So you have a 2/2/6/0 TIE interceptor with the TIE Bomber dial and upgrade bar, etc., and vice versa with the TIE Bomber.  Switch the skins on the expansion, if you will.  Would that be cool for you?

 

Theme is important, coherence to the 'reality' of the star wars universe is important.  If we do or don't feel like the game we play reflects a battle in the star wars universe, it matters.

What is your reasoning for having a bomber with this dial? This is a pretty dumb argument as to why the crane is "unrealistic".

As I believe you did not make up the Star Wars Universe, it is not up to you to decide what is coherent, realistic or otherwise.

Palp being escorted by 2 lone ships is OK, when he has the entire Navy at his beck and call... 2 ships seems pretty fair.

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Maybe I'm not making my point clear.  Let's say that you take the TIE Bomber and TIE Interceptor, and switch every stat.  So you have a 2/2/6/0 TIE interceptor with the TIE Bomber dial and upgrade bar, etc., and vice versa with the TIE Bomber.  Switch the skins on the expansion, if you will.  Would that be cool for you?

 

 

I don't give a **** which model has what stats. As long as the model clearly belongs to the card I'm good to go. 

 

 

Well, that's an odd opinion to have (in my opinion).  I think that the game should derive gameplay elements and mechanics from the fluff where practical - think of it as gameplay inspired by fluff, and shouldn't step outside the bounds of the sense of realism in the star wars universe.  And that's what the game does almost all of the time; much credit to its developers.  The more the game makes you feel like you're flying ships in the star wars universe (without sacrificing balance or interesting mechanics), the better it is doing.  This card is an exception to the rule, in the sense that the developers have managed to do that so far.  

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couldnt care less

Green dice would **** it harder than any dial could

 

Well if not, you, there would be plenty of others rioting in the streets.  No way that most people would meekly accept an Interceptor with a crap dial.

right but if youre using that as a reason for my fluff > gameplay, youre missing the point entirely. This is more stupid thing made for no real reason > fluff

There is no reason to introduce a slow interceptor, esp when you already have other slow ships in the game

Slow interceptors wouldnt actually benefit gameplay at all

But it does let interesting new gameplay elements slide in regardless of how little sense they make when you stop to think about it

 

Maybe I'm not making my point clear.  Let's say that you take the TIE Bomber and TIE Interceptor, and switch every stat.  So you have a 2/2/6/0 TIE interceptor with the TIE Bomber dial and upgrade bar, etc., and vice versa with the TIE Bomber.  Switch the skins on the expansion, if you will.  Would that be cool for you?

 

Theme is important, coherence to the 'reality' of the star wars universe is important.  If we do or don't feel like the game we play reflects a battle in the star wars universe, it matters.

What is your reasoning for having a bomber with this dial? This is a pretty dumb argument as to why the crane is "unrealistic".

As I believe you did not make up the Star Wars Universe, it is not up to you to decide what is coherent, realistic or otherwise.

Palp being escorted by 2 lone ships is OK, when he has the entire Navy at his beck and call... 2 ships seems pretty fair.

 

 

I'm not arguing that TIE intereptor model with TIE bomber stats is a good or justifiable idea; I'm saying that it makes about as much sense as salvaging a Proton Torpedo from the wreck of a TIE fighter.  Do you disagree?

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Eh, the idea behind blocking is that it's disrupting the ships' normal maneuvers and forcing them to evade one another rather than continue what they were doing. For a game desperately trying to replicate 3 dimensions with 2, it's not awful. You're already having to take so much for granted, and suspend so much disbelief, that it's a fairly minor gripe.

This card is pretty out there, no matter which way you slice it. Especially that it works out to Range 2, lol. That's a heck of a long crane arm, given that it can extend two-thirds of the length of the effective range of laser cannons.   For perspective, a crane that could reach two-thirds of the effective range of an M-16 rifle would be about 350 meters long.

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couldnt care less

Green dice would **** it harder than any dial could

 

Well if not, you, there would be plenty of others rioting in the streets.  No way that most people would meekly accept an Interceptor with a crap dial.

right but if youre using that as a reason for my fluff > gameplay, youre missing the point entirely. This is more stupid thing made for no real reason > fluff

There is no reason to introduce a slow interceptor, esp when you already have other slow ships in the game

Slow interceptors wouldnt actually benefit gameplay at all

But it does let interesting new gameplay elements slide in regardless of how little sense they make when you stop to think about it

 

Maybe I'm not making my point clear.  Let's say that you take the TIE Bomber and TIE Interceptor, and switch every stat.  So you have a 2/2/6/0 TIE interceptor with the TIE Bomber dial and upgrade bar, etc., and vice versa with the TIE Bomber.  Switch the skins on the expansion, if you will.  Would that be cool for you?

 

Theme is important, coherence to the 'reality' of the star wars universe is important.  If we do or don't feel like the game we play reflects a battle in the star wars universe, it matters.

What is your reasoning for having a bomber with this dial? This is a pretty dumb argument as to why the crane is "unrealistic".

As I believe you did not make up the Star Wars Universe, it is not up to you to decide what is coherent, realistic or otherwise.

Palp being escorted by 2 lone ships is OK, when he has the entire Navy at his beck and call... 2 ships seems pretty fair.

 

I'm not arguing that TIE intereptor model with TIE bomber stats is a good or justifiable idea; I'm saying that it makes about as much sense as salvaging a Proton Torpedo from the wreck of a TIE fighter.  Do you disagree?

As a TIE Fighter cannot have Proton Torpedoes, I would be calling a TO over straight away. But, how much time is a turn? What is the distance of the playing area? How much time does a crane take to salvage such munitions? It's abstract ideas that we can't answer that make arguments against realism and coherency moot.

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couldnt care less

Green dice would **** it harder than any dial could

 

Well if not, you, there would be plenty of others rioting in the streets.  No way that most people would meekly accept an Interceptor with a crap dial.

right but if youre using that as a reason for my fluff > gameplay, youre missing the point entirely. This is more stupid thing made for no real reason > fluff

There is no reason to introduce a slow interceptor, esp when you already have other slow ships in the game

Slow interceptors wouldnt actually benefit gameplay at all

But it does let interesting new gameplay elements slide in regardless of how little sense they make when you stop to think about it

 

Maybe I'm not making my point clear.  Let's say that you take the TIE Bomber and TIE Interceptor, and switch every stat.  So you have a 2/2/6/0 TIE interceptor with the TIE Bomber dial and upgrade bar, etc., and vice versa with the TIE Bomber.  Switch the skins on the expansion, if you will.  Would that be cool for you?

 

Theme is important, coherence to the 'reality' of the star wars universe is important.  If we do or don't feel like the game we play reflects a battle in the star wars universe, it matters.

What is your reasoning for having a bomber with this dial? This is a pretty dumb argument as to why the crane is "unrealistic".

As I believe you did not make up the Star Wars Universe, it is not up to you to decide what is coherent, realistic or otherwise.

Palp being escorted by 2 lone ships is OK, when he has the entire Navy at his beck and call... 2 ships seems pretty fair.

 

I'm not arguing that TIE intereptor model with TIE bomber stats is a good or justifiable idea; I'm saying that it makes about as much sense as salvaging a Proton Torpedo from the wreck of a TIE fighter.  Do you disagree?

As a TIE Fighter cannot have Proton Torpedoes, I would be calling a TO over straight away. But, how much time is a turn? What is the distance of the playing area? How much time does a crane take to salvage such munitions? It's abstract ideas that we can't answer that make arguments against realism and coherency moot.

 

At least I feel vindicated about the guy who told me ship boarding was a dumb idea because it would make no sense in a game of dogfighting.  If I can scrounge a torpedo off a ship without torps, then realism be-damned, a boarding assault game mechanic is a cool idea.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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Obviously it's not that they are making new munitions on the fly, that would be stupid.....

 

Scum are notoriously bad at paying the bills, so obviously Jabba has put them on a meter. They can't get any more missiles until the meter is fed... the Scavenger Crane just magnetises in all the enemies loose change.

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In terms of departing from the star wars narrative, or storyline, or what have you, we do that all the time and it' unavoidable.  This card was avoidable.

 

What is now unavoidable is the Naboo Cruiser with Padme and Anakin crew cards.  When both crew are equipped and the Naboo Cruiser is destroyed, you can deploy Luke's X-Wing!!!!!

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Guys, what are you talking about? In this game we have red maneuvers.

In space.

With-no-attriction.

seriously, I like these no-clue topics, but what's the problem now? :-/

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Guys, what are you talking about? In this game we have red maneuvers.

In space.

With-no-attriction.

seriously, I like these no-clue topics, but what's the problem now? :-/

technically the red maneuvers do have realism merits: stress on the hull. Resistance isnt a thing in space, but momentum is. Try to turn too fast the hull might rip itself apart.

Though i admit some red moves make no sense (4fwd bwings....)

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So, the scavenger crane mechanic is very interesting in gameplay terms, but the card hits my realism funnybone in a bad way.  Consider me triggered, if you will.

 

Hmm...a valid point.

 

Does this help at all?

 

 extra-munitions.png       swx61-scavenger-crane.png       munitions-failsafe.png

 

Think of it as coming from the same family of "stocking up on munitions" - munitions failsafe makes it so that you could miss three times and then finally get a hit, when originally you only had one missile or torpedo. Extra munitions just spells it out more, maybe this is a way to do the same but now in the Illicit upgrade slot as opposed to a Modification or Torpedo slot. Anyways, does that help at all :huh:?

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Instead of thinking of it as scavenging a fully functioning upgrade from another ship, I'm going to think of it this way (which is suitable for scum, methinks):  Perhaps my turret has been damaged - I'm able to scavenge parts from another ship that allow me to repair it.  Perhaps I had another missile (or more) on board my ship that wasn't fully complete - I'm able to salvage fuel to propel it or materials to make it explosive.  &c. &c.

 

Hey!  It's helping my suspension of disbelief at least somewhat.

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I'm not arguing that TIE intereptor model with TIE bomber stats is a good or justifiable idea; I'm saying that it makes about as much sense as salvaging a Proton Torpedo from the wreck of a TIE fighter.  Do you disagree?

 

 

Certainly it doesn't have 100% sense nor 100% coherence, but it is less offensive to my "in universe coherence" than:
 
- Characters of diverse eras in the same table.
- Ships with several torpedos depleting their ordnance in one shot.
- Super Agile and super fast HWK with a poor dial.
- Most of the larger ships are faster and more maneuverable than smaller vessels.
- Any ship with turret or cannon slot that can use any cannon or turret regardless of the size of the ship and the weapon.
- An scum hunter that do not shoot the Sabine's Tie because... reasons.
- Chewy piloting the falcon at the very same time of repairing every breakdown on it.
- Nera launching ordnance 360º
- Ethan improving the shooting a colleague at is back.
- Jans Ors overcharging the cannon of a friend from her ship.
- Esegue or Manaroo sharing their concentration throught the vast void space.
- Biggs telepathically inducting agrro in to his enemies.
- Blount hitting ships that he doesn't touch.
- An intelligent agent reading minds.
- A saboteur f**ing with the inner system of enemy ship during the flight combat.
- The warnings of C3P0 drastically improving the agility of a clumsy ship.
- Bobba disabling a title.
 
And thats only with a shallow looking over one of the three factions in game. Probably, the crane wouldn't be even in the top 30 of the more fragrant ruptures of the universe coherence in my list. But, I admit, the crane is not very coherent, nor realist, and not have much of a sense...
 
I suppose that if I can enjoy the game, even with all these over-evident cracks in the "in universe coherence", as I can, i could survive the new Scavenger Crane.
Edited by Draconis Hegemonia

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