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Babaganoosh

Scavenger Crane not realistic - is that a problem for anyone else?

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swx61-scavenger-crane.png

 

So, the scavenger crane mechanic is very interesting in gameplay terms, but the card hits my realism funnybone in a bad way.  Consider me triggered, if you will.

 

So, are we to accept that a ship flying around in the middle of a dogfight could identify, acquire, and replace its own hardware with debris from destroyed ships?  

 

I'm having a hard time buying this one.  For example, if I'm a Starviper carrying an advanced proton torpedo, and I've got a scavenger crane via the virago title (an unlikely but possible scenario), I can regenerate my APT from a TIE Fighter that ran into an asteroid and destroyed itself at range 1 of me.  How does that work, realistically?  I mean, there just isn't an APT in the TIE fighter's bits, and I don't know how the heck you fabricate, install, or even load a complex weapon system like that in the middle of a dogfight.

 

I know realism and star wars have a... fraught relationship, but this card really hits me below the belt, because I cannot imagine an in-universe scavenger crane working anywhere close to the way this card works in-game.  

 

It would be bad enough if you were salvaging upgrades off the destroyed ship; like for example if I had a QJ with the crane, and I killed a TIE/fo at range 1, and then stole a tech upgrade from it after blowing it up.  That's hard enough to imagine.  But taking those TIE/fo bits and turning them into a torpedo?  I just don't see it.

 

Anyone else feel the same way?  Don't care? Disagree (How dare you)?

 

edit- I should note that, about 95% of the time, FFG does a bang-up job of maintaining a healthy relationship to the 'realism'of the star wars universe.  There's tons of pilots and upgrade cards that match up to the fluff of the star wars universe quite nicely and are realistic for the star wars universe and the context of a hairy space dogfight.  But not this card!

Edited by Babaganoosh

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Fitting a second person in an unpressurized TIE.......

 

Star Wars EU made some attempts at plausibility through some hard science fiction writers but THE mouse likes maREY sue's, princesses, poe's.....................................

 

You get it.  Yes, the mouse will crap over our childhood.... but it does breath life into things like this game... which if it were all FFG made up ships and not star wars ships, would be just as fun of a game but no where near as popular and would not allow me to re-live a little of my childhood.

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I don't care. There are a lot of upgrades and pilot abilites that don't really make sense when you analyze it.

 

If it helps, just rename your Scavenger Crane a "Matter Transmution, Collection, and Recombination Matrix" and imagine that it is some sort of Star Trek Transporter-Replicator combo.

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Disagree. Having solid game mechanics is better than fluff and it is not the first time card mechanics break in universe restrictions.

As for stealing other upgrades would never be a sure thing, for example stealing a comm relay would be useless if you have no way to generate evades.

This does something interesting for scum ordanance carriers that isn't just slapping on extra munitions. I welcome it with open arms.

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No no no, you got it all wrong.  When your buddy runs over a rock and kills himself, you can flip face up your still discarded Twin Laser Turret that your sparring buddy Boba Fett somehow destroyed when his ship critted yours.

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I agree. Just like blocking doesn't make sense.

 

At least it kinda sorta makes sense.  I'd give the blocking mechanics a D- for realism.  Bad, but still passing, I guess.

 

 

I don't care. There are a lot of upgrades and pilot abilites that don't really make sense when you analyze it.

 

If it helps, just rename your Scavenger Crane a "Matter Transmution, Collection, and Recombination Matrix" and imagine that it is some sort of Star Trek Transporter-Replicator combo.

 

I can't think of an upgrade or ability that pushes nearly so far out of the realism bubble as this one; did you have a particularly offensive card in mind to compare with scavenger crane?

 

 

Disagree. Having solid game mechanics is better than fluff and it is not the first time card mechanics break in universe restrictions.

As for stealing other upgrades would never be a sure thing, for example stealing a comm relay would be useless if you have no way to generate evades.

This does something interesting for scum ordanance carriers that isn't just slapping on extra munitions. I welcome it with open arms.

 

In terms of gameplay, yeah sure, whatever.  REgenning your upgrades is interesting.  But I'm purely talking about thematics here.  And don't tell me the theme of the game doesn't matter - this game's star wars skin is at least half the reason that so many people play it.  

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Disagree. Having solid game mechanics is better than fluff and it is not the first time card mechanics break in universe restrictions.

As for stealing other upgrades would never be a sure thing, for example stealing a comm relay would be useless if you have no way to generate evades.

This does something interesting for scum ordanance carriers that isn't just slapping on extra munitions. I welcome it with open arms.

In terms of gameplay, yeah sure, whatever. REgenning your upgrades is interesting. But I'm purely talking about thematics here. And don't tell me the theme of the game doesn't matter - this game's star wars skin is at least half the reason that so many people play it.

Never said theme does not matter. I said gameplay is more imortant and I stand by that. X-wing draws people in with the star wars theme but keeps them because of the gameplay.

There are a lot of mechanics that do not fit in-universe in this game. Blocking has been highlighted in this thread previously. If ships collided like that in universe one or both would be destroyed. However it is a mechanic that keeps the game interesting.

Designing more for theme than gameplay gets you a big soggy mess like 40k. I love the universe of 40k but the gameplay put me off playing years ago.

Edited by kayarn

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Really? complaining about Starwars stuff not being realistic?

Starwars is probably the WORST scifi flick in terms of realistic behavior. Their ships all move with only rear facing thrustors in SPACE, which is impossible without thrustors in all directions. Sound works in space...waaat? Freighters outmaneuver fighters...huh?

 

Nothing in starwars is realistic. Its a space-bound fantasy flick. Something doesnt make sense? Magic

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guys nothing that's ever been in space moves the way these fighters do on screen.

The sooner you stop trying to squeeze realism into the series about space wizards, the happier you'll be.

 

I'm not talking real-world realism, I'm talking about in-universe realism.  Yeah, a lot of elements in star wars are not realistic if you put them in the frame of the real world, for example the way ships move on-screen.  But, the x-wing miniatures game maps thematically to the way things work in the star wars universe, and I expect it to keep doing so.  

 

For example, lets go back to wave 2.  The A-Wing and Interceptor came out, and had great dials.  Makes sense; they've always been depicted as fast, nimble ships.  

 

But imagine for a second that the A-wing and Interceptor had awful dials; as bad as the HWK-290.  It wouldn't be thematic at all, and I would bet anything that there'd be an uproar in the community.  

 

What we have here is an upgrade card that does defies the in-universe rules brazenly.  Now, it's not so bad as my hypothetical scenario where the A-Wing and Interceptor have awful dials - this is just one upgrade card with little grounding in the movies or literature.  Nobody had expectations or attachment to scavenger cranes.  But the way it works just makes no **** sense in a lot of scenarios!

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Really? complaining about Starwars stuff not being realistic?

Starwars is probably the WORST scifi flick in terms of realistic behavior. Their ships all move with only rear facing thrustors in SPACE, which is impossible without thrustors in all directions. Sound works in space...waaat? Freighters outmaneuver fighters...huh?

 

Nothing in starwars is realistic. Its a space-bound fantasy flick. Something doesnt make sense? Magic

Are you telling me that the scavenger crane is magic?

 

More to the point; I'm saying that it doesn't make sense in-universe.  Star wars defies physics, etc. all the time, but it does so with some manner of in-universe consistency.  This just doesn't make sense within the framework we've been given.

Edited by Babaganoosh

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Really? complaining about Starwars stuff not being realistic?

Starwars is probably the WORST scifi flick in terms of realistic behavior. Their ships all move with only rear facing thrustors in SPACE, which is impossible without thrustors in all directions. Sound works in space...waaat? Freighters outmaneuver fighters...huh?

 

Nothing in starwars is realistic. Its a space-bound fantasy flick. Something doesnt make sense? Magic

Are you telling me that the scavenger crane is magic?

Nah it just has a really big magnet, and a team of really souped up droids.

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Really? complaining about Starwars stuff not being realistic?

Starwars is probably the WORST scifi flick in terms of realistic behavior. Their ships all move with only rear facing thrustors in SPACE, which is impossible without thrustors in all directions. Sound works in space...waaat? Freighters outmaneuver fighters...huh?

 

Nothing in starwars is realistic. Its a space-bound fantasy flick. Something doesnt make sense? Magic

Same old sh... You're confusing realism with coherence.

Old SW (I mean, first 3 movies and pre-prelogy EU) was quite OK. The point of fantasy/science fiction IS to break "realism" with a big "what if".

Hence, yeah, you get to break some rules, but you have to make quite clear which rules and stay coherent with it.The spectator accepts this (it is called willing suspension of disbelief) by suspending his scepticism about those things so he can enjoy the story.

If you reinvent the rules without notice, then you break the contract between the spectator and the storyteller. And this is harmful for the fantasy universe we all like.

Anyway, to return to the subject, we also accept a sort of contract between our view of the universe and the game designers; we allow them to break the rules of the universe a little bit, and in exchange, we get a more enjoyable game (who wants regen on all shield-equipped ships ? ^^).

Edited by Giledhil

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Really? complaining about Starwars stuff not being realistic?

Starwars is probably the WORST scifi flick in terms of realistic behavior. Their ships all move with only rear facing thrustors in SPACE, which is impossible without thrustors in all directions. Sound works in space...waaat? Freighters outmaneuver fighters...huh?

 

Nothing in starwars is realistic. Its a space-bound fantasy flick. Something doesnt make sense? Magic

Same old sh... You're confusing realism with coherence.

Old SW (I mean, first 3 movies and pre-prelogy EU) was quite OK. The point of fantasy/science fiction IS to break "realism" with a big "what if".

Hence, yeah, you get to break some rules, but you have to make quite clear which rules and stay coherent with it.The spectator accepts this (it is called willing suspension of disbelief) by suspending his scepticism about those things so he can enjoy the story.

If you reinvent the rules without notice, then you break the contract between the spectator and the storyteller. And this is harmful for the fantasy universe we all like.

I don't want you staring at my willy suspension in disbelief, thank you.

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Armada has similar things with docking on the space station (ie: landing on it during your movement phase) or a repair card for the GR75 and/or Gozanti - and in the middle of a huge epic starship battle, droids apparently rush out and repair your ship.

 

Do I care? No, not one bit. It's game mechanic fluff. Call it a "Repair Droid" and it rushes around, grabs some spare parts and reassembles something that you can use.

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Star Wars EU made some attempts at plausibility through some hard science fiction writers

You mean like Kevin J Anderson? Architect of the super duper sun destroying one-man ship with magic indestructible armor? 

 

(Also the guy who ruined Dune)

 

 

 

Really? complaining about Starwars stuff not being realistic?

Starwars is probably the WORST scifi flick in terms of realistic behavior. Their ships all move with only rear facing thrustors in SPACE, which is impossible without thrustors in all directions. Sound works in space...waaat? Freighters outmaneuver fighters...huh?

 

Nothing in starwars is realistic. Its a space-bound fantasy flick. Something doesnt make sense? Magic

Same old sh... You're confusing realism with coherence.

Old SW (I mean, first 3 movies and pre-prelogy EU) was quite OK. 

No, it really wasn't. Parts of it were okay, and parts were a mess, just like how it is now. 

 

The Crystal Star came out in 1994. Jedi Prince started in 1992. Good luck calling that garbage coherent. 

Edited by WingedSpider

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