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hyveedoughboy

Verena: Close Quarters attacks vs "Power To Shields"

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We ran into an interesting question with Verena's Close Quarters vs "Power To Shields"

 

Power to Shields:

 

Exhaust this card while an Imperial figure is defending and choose 1 of the following keywords: Pierce, Blast, Cleave, or any Condition keyword. During this attack, the chosen keyword has no effect.

 

Verena's Close Quarters:

 

Use when an adjacent hostile figure is defeated to interrupt to perform and attack using that figure's attack type and attack pool.

 

Assume Verena attacks an adjacent trooper.  The Imperial player chooses to use Power to Shields and chooses "Pierce" to have no effect. During this attack Verena defeats the trooper.   Now, Verena interrupts to use Close Quarters to attack a Trandoshan. According to the rules, even though the trooper is defeated, the first attack has not resolved yet (things like Cleave, etc don't trigger until after the Close Quarters finishes).

 

Per the rules reference on Interrupt:

 

 When resolving an interrupt

ability, players pause the current action of the game and resolve

the interrupting ability. After the effect is resolved, players resume

playing from the point that was interrupted. For example, if an

attack is interrupted, the interrupting ability is fully resolved

before players finish resolving the attack.

 

So here's the question:  During the 2nd attack, does "Pierce" work or not?

 

There seems to be 2 ways to look at this:

1)  The first attack is still going on, but is merely paused. From this perspective, the attacks are 'nested' inside eachother. We are still 'during' the first attack because it has not resolved, and thus the anti-pierce is still in effect.

2)  The first attack is completely set aside and treated as if it doesn't even exist for the duration of the 2nd attack. From this perspective, the attacks are not 'nested'. Rather, they are side-by-side and thus the 2nd attack is not 'during' the first attack, and therefore the anti-pierce is no longer in effect.

 

I can honestly see both ways, and I think different games play these things out differently.  Any help would be greatly appreciated!

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According to the rules, even though the trooper is defeated, the first attack has not resolved yet (things like Cleave, etc don't trigger until after the Close Quarters finishes).

 

When does the attack resolve?

 

Is it after the targeted figure is defeated, or after all abilities pertaining to the attack are resolved?

 

Cleave and Blast are resolved after the attack, so I would argue that after applying damage and defeating the figure the attack has ended, as there is no remaining step in the Steps of an Attack.

 

1) Verena Attacks

2) Step 7 of Attack steps (final step) calculate damage and defeat figure

3) Verena triggers close quarters after Step 7 (end of attack steps) but before "After attack" triggers happens.

 

So the final step of the attack has already been completed, so it is no longer "during the attack"

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I would say "during this attack" is actually "for this attack". Also, the interrupting attack is separate, it is happening outside of the original attack and Power to Shields does not apply to it.

 

But, Close Quarters happens during step 7 of the original attack, so technically 'during this attack'.

 

So this can go either way. :D

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Rules request to FFG?  I'd rule that it doesn't apply to the second attack (or third or fourth or fifth, knowing Verena), but I'd be interested to know what FFG say...

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I would say "during this attack" is actually "for this attack". Also, the interrupting attack is separate, it is happening outside of the original attack and Power to Shields does not apply to it.

 

But, Close Quarters happens during step 7 of the original attack, so technically 'during this attack'.

 

So this can go either way. :D

hasn't step 7 been immediately resolved by the application of damage and target being defeated? (thus ended the attack)

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hasn't step 7 been immediately resolved by the application of damage and target being defeated? (thus ended the attack)

Abilities that trigger from target suffering damage equal to its Health or being defeated/destroyed (figures or objects - for example Parting Shot, Vengeance, Forward Vengeance, Executor, mission events from doors being destroyed = opened) happen during step 7 of the attack.

 

The attack has not resolved yet when performing these, you are still in step 7.

 

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1631857/ability-resolution-order-during-attacks

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I don't think there is anything saying you need to check for defeat before the attack is over.  It's a lot cleaner if you resolve the attack and then check much like you have cleave triggering after the attack finishes.  Cleave's trigger and defeat's trigger are worded similarly.

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Cleave's trigger and defeat's trigger are worded similarly.

Cleave (reference card): After the attack resolves, if the target suffered 1 or more damage, the attacker may choose a different hostile figure or object that he could target for an attack. The chosen figure or object suffers damage equal to the Cleave value.

 

Defeated (RRG): When a figure has a number of damage tokens equal to its Health, the figure is defeated.

 

I don't see them worded similarly at all.

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I don't know what you mean by "reference card", but I'm sleepy so I might be missing something obvious, but Rules Reference PG8:

 

Cleave
The Cleave keyword appears on some cards. If the target of this
figure’s attack suffers one or more H (damage), the attacker may
choose a different hostile figure or object that he could target
for an attack. The chosen figure or object suffers the amount of
H listed. For example, “Cleave 1H” causes the chosen figure or
object to suffer 1H.
• The chosen figure or object must be an eligible target. For
example, for a melee attack (without Reach), the chosen figure
must be adjacent to the attacker.
• The H suffered by Cleave is not prevented by G.
• If an attack inflicts a condition, such as Stun or Bleed, this
condition is applied only to the target of the attack and not to
figures affected by Cleave.
Related Topics:

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The core game comes with a number of reference cards, Cleave and Blast in one of them, Conditions in another, and I think Massive/Mobile in the third one.

 

The Blast/Cleave reference card has the full rules with the "After the attack resolves". Unfortunately the "after the attack resolves" is omitted in the RRG for both Blast and Cleave. At least Conditions in the RRG lists the "after the attack resolves" timing.

 

But even if you need to hunt for the full rules from the condition cards, Blast, Cleave and Conditions all have the "after the attack resolves" trigger, not when the target suffers damage.

 

(I'm trying to keep this upto date with campaign abilities https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1631857/ability-resolution-order-during-attacks )

Edited by a1bert

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I received a response from FFG about this one.  According to FFG, Power to Shields only affects the single attack, and does not affect the 'nested' 2nd attack.

 

Full text below:

 

------

 

Hi Tom,

 
Interesting question! In this case, the “during this attack” continuous effect from Power to the Shields is interpreted not to be a timing window, but an effect that applies “for this attack.”
 
If Power to the Shields negates Pierce on Verena’s initial attack, she can still use Pierce on the subsequent (interrupting) attack from Close Quarters. Despite the second attack interrupting the performance of the first, they should not be considered nested with regards to “during this attack” effects.
 
Hope that helps clear things up!
 

Todd Michlitsch
Game Developer
Fantasy Flight Games
a1bert and theChony like this

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