Willange

Latari Elves Collaboration

138 posts in this topic

I agree that a true 1/72 scale miniature would be considerably smaller, however, I have seen photos of these minis held up to a ruler, and the scale they are marketed at is inaccurate. The top of their head comes in at about 24-25mm with base. A citadel guardian is around 27-28mm tall (non "heroic scale") with base. While these elf minis would still be smaller than battlelore, it would be by a margin close enough that in my opinion would still allow for some immersion. 
1022.jpg

Edit: someone on the board game geek forum posted this scale photo in a battlelore forum years ago. Just wanted to credit them. However, besides the miniatures pictured in this photo, there is now a second set available by the same manufacturer, with more options for melee troops. 

Edited by zroelofs

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I have come up with a few units based around the available proxies that i have found online. (I'm very visual, so unless I have an associated mini, it doesn't really work for me personally). A majority of my rules inspirations are based on previous contributions to this forum (with some tweaking) and may be derivative; I'm trying to work them in to the general theme that others have already posted. I'm sorry if we are already past the point of a full faction layout, I just want to contribute what I have been thinking about, and want to get my ideas out there. Each unit has an associated miniature available via caesar miniatures.  Feel free to disregard this post, as I feel many others have already layed out a more lore friendly baseline for Latari elves, I just want to contribute if I can. 

Elven Phalanx
(Proxy Available via caesar elf pack 2)
Infantry-Melee
Cost 4
move 2
Combat value 3 
Health 4
*When attacking, cleave results count as morale rolls instead
*Immovable 1-may ignore one morale result per combat phase when being attacked
*Heroic-May deal one damage to cavalry units
*may not advance
the idea behind this unit is a defensive unit to protect archer units. It has resiliency via the extra health, but is weaker on the attack. It cannot be used aggressively since it may not advance. It is strong in counterattacking, especially against cavalry units

Deepwood Archers
(available via caesar miniature elves pack 1) 
Infantry-Ranged
Cost 4
Move 2
Health 3

Combat Value 2 (Range 1-4)
*Crack Shot- Heroic, Negate all other die results for the attack and deal one damage total instead
*Supporting fire-May draw line of sight through friendly units
Meant to sit behind friendly units while advancing and support them

Beast Riders
An analogue to leonx riders. Only named differently because I found miniatures via Caesar that may serve.  (Modern Amazons, Mounted). The models depict helmeted warriors riding elk, lions and other fantastical beasts. I thought it might fit the theme of elven cavalry riding exotic animals. 
I have nothing to add here as far as stats or rules go; I personally like the idea of "prowl" and "Opportune moment".  

Darnati Swordmasters
(Armour wearing, Sword and shield wielding elves available via caesar minatures elves set 2)
Infantry-Elite-Melee
Cost 6
Move 2
Health 3
Combat Value 3
*Precision Strike-If no other damage was dealt by this unit in this combat phase, heroic die rolls may be counted for damage
*Strike and withdraw-may change an enemy cleave or strike roll to a morale roll, once per combat phase
Designed to consistently deal a moderate level of damage, and have a means of taking less damage in return, but in exchange for having to retreat

Wardens
(Totally based off a previous post. Armored bowmen miniatures available via Caesar miniatures elves set 2) 
Infantry-Elite-Ranged
Combat Value 3 (range 1-5)
*Precision Aim-May re roll heroic results when making ranged attacks
*Sword Training-May make counterattacks using a combat value 3 melee attack
Supposed to be a defensive ranged unit, as previously described by another poster. 

 

LordPeP likes this

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I have come up with a few units based around the available proxies that i have found online. (I'm very visual, so unless I have an associated mini, it doesn't really work for me personally). 

 

Just in case you're curious to take a look, here are the miniatures from Runewars. I hope to post the card images from Rune Age in the next few days so that others who aren't as familiar with the Latari can see what their aesthetic is. You can also read the Rune Age rules. At the end of the book, it has a description of each of the four races.

 

I'm going to use the Rune Age names for these units. In the image below we have the following units from left to right:

Deepwood Archer, Forest Guardian, Darnati Warrior, Pegasus Rider, Storm Sorceress, Leonx Rider

img_2757.jpg

zroelofs likes this

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Hello ^__^

 

Really nice project !

 

Thank you all !!!

 

 

Nice project!

 

Maybe we should make a raw concept of playstyle first. We need to maintain the "asymmetrical army" style in the first part.

 

Let's break down existing armies for that purpose:

 

Daqan: (Focus: Melee, Archery, Defense)

-1 Infantry Melee Unit

-1 Archer Unit

-1 Spellcaster Unit

-2 Cavalry Units

-2 Elite Melee Units

-1 Legend Melee Unit (flying)

-1 Legend Archer Unit

 

Uthuk: (Focus: Melee, Brute Force)

-2 infantry Units

-1 Infantry Archer Unit

-1 Spellcaster Unit

-1 Cavalry Unit

-2 Elite Melee Units

-2 Legend Melee Units (1 semi-flying)

 

Waiqar: (Focus: Melee, Spellcasting, Mass Infantry)

-2 Infantry Melee Units

-1 Infantry Archer Unit

-1 Spellcaster Unit

-2 Cavalry Units

-1 Elite Melee Unit (semi-flying)

-2 Legend Melee Units (1 flying)

 

Since we have 1 balanced Army (Daqan), 1 Army lacking of huge Cavalry (Uthuk) and 1 Army lacking of Elites (Waiqar), Elves could be a fraction lacking melee Units with superior Archery and good spellcasters.

 

 

One possible concept could look like this:

 

Latari: (Focus: Archery, Spellcasting, Mobility)

-1 Infantry Archer Unit (Elven Ranger? good standard unit, melee 3 dices, ranged 2 dices, maybe special weakness (since grotesques would cry otherwise))

-1 Spellcaster Unit (Druid? heals other units)

-1 Cavalry Unit (light cavalry, comparable to riverwatch riders)

-2 Elite Units (Pegasus? (1 flying Elite unit would make Elves very special), Centaurs (Yay, Elite Archery is what we need! 3 dices and very fast)

-3 Legend Units (Examples:Tree Demon Ent-like Thing (strong, defensive Unit), Fairy Dragon? (you can never have too many dragons!), Dryad (Exceptional spellcasting unit, but weakest Legend of all (3 HP), maybe summons small animals as blocking minions)

 

It's just a bare concept.

 

What do you think?

 

Absolute agree with that vision !!! <3

 

I love this prespective of asymetric armies, I think they add more strategic options and interest into the game!

 

Simply I want to emphasize that it will be great if all this ideas fit into the wolrd of Terrinoth, into the Lore and considering all other things allready done in other games.

 

As you all have allready write Latari known units are:

  • Deepwood archer
  • Darnati warrior
  • Storm Sorceress
  • Lenox Rider
  • Pegasus Rider
  • Forest Guardian

(for example in Rune Age & Runewars) 

 

I think this units are the "must-be" in this faction ... then there are 3 more missing  ;)

 

And maybe some of the veterans may remember old Diskwars version (1999), this is what they say of Lathari elves army:

 

The scrouge of Llovar is at hand, and The Great War threatens to destroy all that is good and all that are kind. High Lord Triamlavar in the Elven Capital of Lotharia has heeded the old alliance of Eleves and Men, and has sent his own sons into battle.

The armies of the Lathari Elves are Waging War against the forces of darkness. Under sun and moon, in wood and on plain, their arrows whisper and their swords sing. They are Alluria, The heart and the strength of the forest.

The Lathari Elves are fast, with many ways of attacking at a distance. In the basic army set, you receive three fixed flats with 4 Deepwood Archers, 4 Deepwood Warriors, 1 Riders of the Wood and 1 Windrider. 

 

 

Ok, I know I know, this is "Boardgame archeology" but it maybe it will help to inspire us ;P 

 

 

 

I like the combination between nature/animal creatures and elves, it fits the wood Elf theme faction.

 

My proposal is to include :

  • Dryads
  • Wolves
  • Spirits/faeries

 

Thank you all !!! I will follow this topic ;)

Taki and Budgernaut like this

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I was browsing through the units and noticed a trend

All Infantry-Archer units have only 1 ability.

All Legend units have 3 abilities.

All other units have 2 abilities.

If we want to maintain this trend (and I think we should), the Archer needs to either lose Crack Shot, lose Mobility 1, or it needs a new ability.

LordPeP likes this

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I don't think that's really an important trend to maintain.  The main reason they did it that way (I assume) is that the didn't want to make them OP so they tried to give them each 1 decent ability.  Obviously they failed with the viper legion, but otherwise did well.  If you look at the math on Crack Shot alone, I don't think the unit would be good enough, so I think it having mobility is fine pending actual testing that shows otherwise.

 

Also, Roc Warrior has 2 abilities, so these aren't set rules.  It just needs to be balanced.  Some stat lines are worth an ability or two.  Some abilities are worth multiple abilities.

Edited by Willange
Budgernaut likes this

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So where are we at with the Leonx Rider? Any opinions on which suggestions are the best to implement? And do we have an opinion on whether to change the name? I used Leonx Patrol in my customs just to make it sound somewhat novel, kind of like how we got Citadel Lancers instead of just Knights.

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So where are we at with the Leonx Rider? Any opinions on which suggestions are the best to implement? And do we have an opinion on whether to change the name? I used Leonx Patrol in my customs just to make it sound somewhat novel, kind of like how we got Citadel Lancers instead of just Knights.

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I think Leonx Patrol is a good name.  I'm not really convinced on any specific concept yet.  I think that the Cornered, Pursue 1 idea can work and is probably balanced and safe.  I would propose we just use that with the 3-3-3 stat line at 6 cost.  Obviously we can come back and re-do any of these later on, but I think that unit is a good enough start that we should move along to the Darnati Warrior. 

Which concepts were people liking for that one? 

Budgernaut likes this

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Your Darnati Warrior and my Darnati Warrior share many similarities. I think 2-mov 3-att 3-hlth is a good place to start for stats. Here are your abilities:

Overpower: When this unit attacks a unit with remaining health equal to or less than this units health, this unit attacks with 1 additional die and may also re-roll 1 die in this combat.

Grace: This unit may pass through units when moving.

Deflect: When this unit is counter attacked, this unit suffers a maximum of 1 damage ignoring the any additional damage caused to it during that combat.

I think simplifying Deflect is a good idea, but your simplification makes it very powerful. It's almost like being uncounterable (but not really because they can still suffer retreats and receive condition tokens). I think your version of Overpower is good except that I would drop the reroll. I think the extra die is plenty. Grace is a neat idea. I like that it gives the Elves a little more maneuverability and I love the theme of a graceful elf sidestepping and bypassing units in battle, but I think with these three abilities, it completely outclasses Wraiths, so something may have to go. Maybe Deflect could allow them to ignore 1 damage and 1 retreat each combat? That way spike damage can still hurt them pretty bad. I don't know. Maybe Overpower and Grace are good enough without Deflect.

We also can't forget Toenail's version of Overpower: "Overpower: Spend X+1 lore to deal X damage (Max X=3. Limit once per attack.)." I think as written, it's a little too powerful, but I do think the idea of using lore to deal damage is very intriguing. Lore is the closest thing we have to the Influence from Runewars and Rune Age, so using lore in an attack, really ties the theme of the Latari Elves across the games. I think if this version of Overpower were simply, "[Heroic] Overpower: Spend two lore cause 1 damage to the target unit," that would be a pretty decent ability. Then tack on Deflect or Grace to give it a second ability. I would like this version even more if there were other lore-accelerating abilities among the Latari Elves.

Those are my thoughts on the Darnati Warrior for now.

Edited by Budgernaut
Supertoe, LordPeP and Willange like this

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I had actually forgotten about that ability Toenail had come up with, but I do really like it.  

I also agree that units spending lore in this faction would be a cool way to keep the faction more consistent with its previous iterations.  I think the 'lore-spendy' army should be one of the main army types people might build with 2 or 3 units spending and probably 2 generator units.  I suppose 1 unit could be both a spender and a generator or something like that.  In addition, the Latari will need a lot of cheap, low-impact lore cards available to help make this army viable.  Perhaps more than 1 lore card that is a generator as well?  I'm just trying to think of ways to let them use it as a resource without totally neutering their lore card game.  Also, the units that generate lore obviously will need to be less effective for general combat lest anyone think this will just make that army build crazy OP.  Perhaps the terrain tile for this faction could also be a lore generator?

I'm not sure though that your idea about making deflect ignore 1 damage and 1 retreat is actually less powerful than my idea for it.  I assume you would still only apply that for counter attacks?  That being the case, I would probably just have them ignore the 1st damage on counter attacks then.  I'm not really convinced that ignoring the 1st is any less powerful than ignoring all but 1 hit though...  It really depends on whether or not they have an available avenue of retreat and whether or not and which unit they are fighting...

I agree though that with either version they could be a little too powerful.  I'm not too worried about the Wraith comparison though because the Wraith is really only good in a few niche situations and is pretty terrible the rest of the time.  I wouldn't want the Darnati to fall into that category (I think it's fine for some units, but the Darnati here I think is meant to be a bit more general in its use cases).

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Perhaps the terrain tile for this faction could also be a lore generator?

Definitely! I think this is a really good idea. I created one of those for my army, but it was very mild. "A unit occupying this hex may commit [lore] results to gain 2 lore." It also counted as blocking terrain and impassable terrain for enemy units, so it did more than just generate lore. I think we can do better, though.

 

 

I'm not sure though that your idea about making deflect ignore 1 damage and 1 retreat is actually less powerful than my idea for it.  I assume you would still only apply that for counter attacks?  That being the case, I would probably just have them ignore the 1st damage on counter attacks then.  I'm not really convinced that ignoring the 1st is any less powerful than ignoring all but 1 hit though...  It really depends on whether or not they have an available avenue of retreat and whether or not and which unit they are fighting...

I think both methods would need testing. Ignoring one damage but no retreats on counter attacks is decent, you're right. I'd be willing to try that as well as ignoring all but 1 damage and see how it goes. Actually, though, I think mathematics would be better for determining which ability is better. Unfortunately, that's not my forte. For now, if we choose to go with Deflect, I'd go with yours. If it's too powerful, we can nerf it later.

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So as i said it comes down to situation. Ignoring the first hit is really good against most infantry units. The average number of hits by a melee unit with 3 dice is 1 without abilities. Ignoring all but 1 is better anytime you take 3 hits and they same if you take 2. It's worse if you only take 1. So the thing you have to think about is, I think, when you get counter attacked, areally you mite likely to take 1 hit or 3? Against most things the answer is probably 1, so ignoring the first is probably better. Does that make sense?

That's why i argue mine is weaker. It's worth noting, though, that ignoring the first hit is also simpler to understand and write on a card, so if it's not OP then that's definitely a plus

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Here are some Deflect idreas in technical game language.

"During a counter, if this unit would suffer more than 1 damage, it suffers only 1 damage instead."

"This unit ignores 1 damage during counters."

"During a counter, if this unit would suffer only 1 damage, it suffers no damage instead."

That last one is a new one I thought of. It seems like it would be easier to deflect a weaker attack. I'm still just brainstorming. But I don't think any version of Deflect we've come up with is too wordy or complex.

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I really did like my Darnati, even though it was OP. Maybe spend 1 lore deal 1 damage on heroic would be cool. Maybe lots of other spendy stuff would be good, but you'd need an equal number of generators. That is the key part. You can't have spenders without generators. End of story. So a Storm Sorceress where the [lore] ability is the stronger of the two would be a good start. 

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Also, I just got Descent, so I'm thinking that I'm going to try to convert the nine descent units into BL2 units. That's 4 legends, an archer, caster, cavalry, and an infantry. (barghests have already been done)

Budgernaut likes this

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Oh yeah, on that topic, I've been working with my brother (who's better at 3d printing than me) to find suitable free models people can print and use.  We have yet to actually print them to make sure they turn out well, but we think we've found a decent set of models... it really depends on what we end up doing for the 3 units that weren't in the other games as well.  We had models for the ones I had made, but we'll likely need different models for whatever the group comes up with.  Once we have that done and we've figured out how they print though I'll be posting those.

Supertoe likes this

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Ummm, I suppose... but at this point it kinda seems like this project is mostly just me, you, and toenail.... soooo I guess we just move forward?  We need storm sorceress right?

So I guess from this point forward if we're gonna do the lore spending abilities, I would say we should have at least 2 that spend and 2 that generate to some extent if we really want this to be a theme for the faction.  Darnati is our first spender, so will the sorceress generate then?

Edited by Willange

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Hey guys, the stupid FFG admins changed my name (someone upstairs is having a good laugh), so let's just roll with it until I can get it changed back.

 

I agree, Sorceress should generate, being a caster, but how? Maybe based on terrain? Banners? The unique terrain?

 

And what's up with the builder being down? I sent FFG some angry emails about it, no response yet.

Edited by Toenail

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What if she has a static ability where you gain 1 lore each time she forces an enemy to retreat or each time she causes damage (dealing more than 1 damage in a single attack would still be 1 instance of causing damage).

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On 1/30/2017 at 1:42 PM, Budgernaut said:

What if she has a static ability where you gain 1 lore each time she forces an enemy to retreat or each time she causes damage (dealing more than 1 damage in a single attack would still be 1 instance of causing damage).

But she still needs an ability to be triggered with the [lore] result. Maybe just a simple gain 2 lore (so like the Necromancer drain).

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