How to play a three player game without 2 coresets ?

[erik78 0]

Hi everyone,

 

At what stage of adding different expansions, could we hope to be able to play a three player game without buying a second coreset?

 

Thank you for your answer.

 

K.

[Ardulac 17]

It's hard to say until we see what proportion of the Expansions and Mythos packs are level 0 cards and what the proportion is between neutral and class cards. It also depends on whether you just want to hit the minimum number of cards or to have 3 good decks.

[SuperMarino 138]

It is likely you could do it with just Dunwich Legacy, but Ardulac is right on, they might not be the best decks.

 

Think that you can have Roland and Wendy with their core decks, but you'll probably have to remove some neutral cards to add the cards they are allowed to use from Dunwich Legacy.

Now your third investigator would have to be Jim Culver and need all Mystic cards available, which would probably give him about 15-20 (if you use 2 of all the cards from Dunwich Legacy).  You'll have to balance and pad it out with 5 more from the other classes, and then fill the rest with neutral cards.  It will very likely be doable, but none of the three of them would have a great deck.  Each Mythos pack beyond that will likely add 2-4 new cards per class, so it'll start getting better... but that second core set right off the bat really would give you some breathing room for three players to have some decent decks.

 

By the time this cycle is over, I'd think you can have a decent 3 player game, but you'd still be stuck with having to choose the correct trio that can work together due to your card pool.

[CEOWolf 46]

I was thinking of playing with 3 or 4 players when I get Dunwich as well

[ForAiur 13]

As everyone keeps saying cards in the core set seem to stay very good and usable for very long in FFG games. 2 Core sets aren't even enough for 2 players that overlap skills at the moment. Buy more or proxy / copy some cards.

[Helicon 12]

Numbering & level of revealed Dunwich Legacy cards, combined with the total number of player cards in the expansion, strongly suggest that each class will get three level 0 cards (2 copies each) and one card of level 1 or higher (2 copies). For neutral, it's unclear how many non-weakness cards there will be, but it looks to be between zero and two.

 

Given this, you could make full legal decks for 3 investigators using one core set and the Dunwich Legacy. You could have:

 

Core set investigator #1

10 core set cards for class A

2 Dunwich Legacy cards for class A

10 core set cards for class B

2 Dunwich Legacy cards for class B

6 core set neutral cards

 

 

Core set investigator #2

10 core set cards for class C

2 Dunwich Legacy cards for class C

10 core set cards for class D

2 Dunwich Legacy cards for class D

6 core set neutral cards

 

Dunwich Legacy investigator #1

10 core set cards for class E

6 Dunwich Legacy cards for class E

5 Dunwich Legacy cards of classes A-D

9 core set neutral cards

 

There's a little bit of flexibility there:

The two core set investigators could have up to 6 more Dunwich Legacy class cards, dropping either core set class cards, or neutral cards. There's additional flexibility here if there are any Dunwich Legacy non-weakness neutral level 0 cards

If the core set investigators did drop core set class cards for neutral cards, then the Dunwich Legacy investigator would be free to pick from those core set class cards for his up to 5 level 0 cards of any class

The Dunwich Legacy investigator could drop core set or Dunwich Legacy class cards in favour of neutral cards, again if there are Dunwich Legacy non-weakness neutral level 0 cards, or if core set investigators had dropped neutral cards

 

Obviously the whole thing is a moveable feast when describing what cards an investigator can be pick, based on what cards other investigators picked/did not pick, but those are the main flexibilities I think. In any case, the three investigators will have a minimum of 102 cards (if no level 0 neutral cards in Dunwich Legacy) and possibly up to 106 (if two different neutral cards in Dunwich Legacy) from which to pick their total of 90 cards, which doesn't leave a great deal of wiggle room.

 

And, each Mythos pack appears to contain one card of level 0 and one of level 1 or above per class, plus neutrals (could be one level 0 and one level 1 or above as well, but not clear), so as those are released, choices increase.

 

Hope this helps (I'm 95% sure it's correct).

[ForAiur 13]

Is there a list that shows exact number of each card in the core set? With all encounter cards etc?

[Helicon 12]

Can't find a way to paste this in nicely, so plain text it is.

 

Name # of cards

Roland Banks 1

Daisy Walker 1

"Skids" O'Toole 1

Agnes Baker 1

Wendy Adams 1

Roland's .38 Special 1

Cover Up 1

Daisy's Tote Bag 1

The Necronomicon 1

On the Lam 1

Hospital Debts 1

Heirloom of Hyperborea 1

Dark Memory 1

Wendy's Amulet 1

Abandoned and Alone 1

.45 Automatic 1

Physical Training 1

Beat Cop 1

First Aid 1

Machete 1

Guard Dog 1

Evidence! 1

Dodge 1

Dynamite Blast 1

Vicious Blow 1

Extra Ammunition (1) 1

Police Badge (2) 1

Beat Cop (2) 1

Shotgun (4) 1

Magnifying Glass 1

Old Book of Lore 1

Research Librarian 1

Dr. Milan Christopher 1

Hyperawareness 1

Medical Texts 1

Mind over Matter 1

Working a Hunch 1

Barricade 1

Deduction 1

Magnifying Glass (1) 1

Disc of Itzanna (2) 1

Encyclopedia (2) 1

Cryptic Research (4) 1

Switchblade 1

Burglary 1

Pickpocketing 1

.41 Derringer 1

Leo De Luca 1

Hard Knocks 1

Elusive 1

Backstab 1

Sneak Attack 1

Opportunist 1

Leo De Luca (1) 1

Cat Burglar (1) 1

Sure Gamble (3) 1

Hot Streak (4) 1

Forbidden Knowledge 1

Holy Rosary 1

Shrivelling 1

Scrying 1

Arcane Studies 1

Arcane Initiate 1

Drawn to the Flame 1

Ward of Protection 1

Blinding Light 1

Fearless 1

Mind Wipe (1) 1

Blinding Light (2) 1

Book of Shadows (4) 1

Grotesque Statue (2) 1

Leather Coat 1

Scavenging 1

Baseball Bat 1

Rabbit's Foot 1

Stray Cat 1

Dig Deep 1

Cunning Distraction 1

"Look what I found!" 1

Lucky! 1

Survival Instinct 1

Aquinnah (1) 1

Close Call (2) 1

Lucky! (2) 1

Will to Survive (3) 1

Knife 4

Flashlight 4

Emergency Cache 4

Guts 2

Perception 2

Overpower 2

Manual Dexterity 2

Unexpected Courage 2

Bulletproof Vest 2

Elder Sign Amulet 2

Amnesia 2

Paranoia 2

Haunted 1

Psychosis 1

Hypochondria 1

Mob Enforcer 1

Silver Twilight Recruiter 1

Stubborn Detective 1

 

The Gathering 1

What's Going On?! 1

Rise of the Ghouls 1

They're Getting Out! 1

Trapped 1

The Barrier 1

What Have You Done? 1

Study 1

Hallway 1

Attic 1

Cellar 1

Parlor 1

Ghoul Priest 1

Lita Chantler 1

Flesh-Eater 1

Icy Ghoul 1

The Midnight Masks 1

Predator or Prey? 1

Time is Running Short 1

Uncovering the Conspiracy 1

Your House 1

Rivertown 1

Southside 1

Southside 1

St. Mary's Hospital 1

Miskatonic University 1

Downtown 1

Downtown 1

Easttown 1

Graveyard 1

Northside 1

Hunting Shadow 3

False Lead 2

"Wolf-man" Drew 1

Herman Collins 1

Peter Warren 1

Victoria Devereux 1

Ruth Turner 1

The Devourer Below 1

The Arkham Woods 1

The Ritual Begins 1

Vengeance Awaits 1

Investigating the Trail 1

Into the Darkness 1

Disrupting the Ritual 1

Main Path 1

Arkham Woods 1

Arkham Woods 1

Arkham Woods 1

Arkham Woods 1

Arkham Woods 1

Arkham Woods 1

Ritual Site 1

Umôrdhoth 1

Umordhoth's Wrath 2

Swarm of Rats 3

Ghoul Minion 3

Ravenous Ghoul 1

Grasping Hands 3

Rotting Remains 3

Frozen in Fear 2

Dissonant Voices 2

Ancient Evils 3

Crypt Chill 2

Obscuring Fog 2

Acolyte 3

Wizard of the Order 1

Mysterious Chanting 2

Hunting Nightgaunt 2

On Wings of Darkness 2

Locked Door 2

Screeching Byakhee 2

The Yellow Sign 2

Yithian Observer 2

Offer of Power 2

Relentless Dark Young 1

Goat Spawn 3

Young Deep One 2

Dreams of R'lyeh 2

[SuperMarino 138]

Numbering & level of revealed Dunwich Legacy cards, combined with the total number of player cards in the expansion, strongly suggest that each class will get three level 0 cards (2 copies each) and one card of level 1 or higher (2 copies). For neutral, it's unclear how many non-weakness cards there will be, but it looks to be between zero and two.

 

Thanks for doing this, Helicon, it basically affirms through math what I was speculating at was but too lazy to work out!  The thing that still stinks about only having 1 core and 1 Dunwich Legacy is that you would have to use a trio that pairs well, basically building two as the core set spells out plus the one Dunwich Legacy character that uses the fifth class.  An extra core set could let you play almost any combination.

[shosuko 2,174]

You may want 2 core sets to just play 2 people, or solo though.  The core set comes with 2 copies of every neutral card, but only 1 copy of every sphere card.  Deck building allows you to put up to 2 of any card in your deck, and doubling up on the cards you see as most valuable will make your play more consistent.

[Kubernes 736]

Since the three player game is casual, you could simply 'wing it' by adding some of the higher level cards to the decks. Yes, it could make the game much easier for the players but we're only at the core set and learning to play/having fun is more important. Later on we can start getting devoured, driven insane, or become slaves to the elder gods.

[Elrad 250]

my question beeing related to the present conversation, I allow myself to join and ask :

 

While having more than one copy of the coreset (2 or 3 or even 4 for some among the persons in this forum) is "needed" to have a "viable" game, will it be also the same story with the expansions ? I mean, owning some other lcg at home and not beeing a tournament player, I'm asking myself, will I have to by two copies of each coming up expansions to keep the viability of my game ? (I currently benefited of a discount at my online retailer to buy instantly two coresets of this game, so that's why I ask).

 

Thanks for your answers,

[Doma0997 72]

my question beeing related to the present conversation, I allow myself to join and ask :

 

While having more than one copy of the coreset (2 or 3 or even 4 for some among the persons in this forum) is "needed" to have a "viable" game, will it be also the same story with the expansions ? I mean, owning some other lcg at home and not beeing a tournament player, I'm asking myself, will I have to by two copies of each coming up expansions to keep the viability of my game ? (I currently benefited of a discount at my online retailer to buy instantly two coresets of this game, so that's why I ask).

 

Thanks for your answers,

 

It really depends. I bought 4 core sets because I'm supporting two people, and want to have 100% of the build options. This however only applies if we share a class, because if we don't share a class between the two of us, we have full options without any harmful crossover or fighting for cards. With the expansions all coming with a full playset for ONE person, if you're supplying for yourself you only need to buy one, but again if you want full options for two people in case you want to do a class crossover (or maybe one of you plays one of the new investigators, and you really need that off class card your friend picked for one of your 5 off class cards) you'll want to have 2 of each expansions. If you're tight on money, I'd say you only really need one expansions each, but if you want to play combinations like roland and daisy and have 100% of the options, you'll need 2.

 

Also anything said about another player also applies if you're playing two handed, since it's pretty much the same concept. 

[SuperMarino 138]

my question beeing related to the present conversation, I allow myself to join and ask :

 

While having more than one copy of the coreset (2 or 3 or even 4 for some among the persons in this forum) is "needed" to have a "viable" game, will it be also the same story with the expansions ? I mean, owning some other lcg at home and not beeing a tournament player, I'm asking myself, will I have to by two copies of each coming up expansions to keep the viability of my game ? (I currently benefited of a discount at my online retailer to buy instantly two coresets of this game, so that's why I ask).

 

Thanks for your answers,

 

Doma's answer is pretty good.  To attempt to simply my thoughts on this:  If you bought 1-2 Core Sets, 1 of each expansion would be sufficient to keep the same ratio (2 of each class card).  If you find the need for 4 Core Sets, then you'll need 2 of each expansion.

 

I think overall have 2 of each card will be fine for 2 player games, I think it will be rare you'll ever want to have both players play two of the same class, and even with a bit of overlapping there should be a decent enough card pool.  The only thing that worries me, and I don't know how this will work, is you will likely only get 2 of each Neutral card as well, and those might be worth having 4 of so each player can have 2.  Still, I'm going to try to stick to only 2 core sets and 1 of each expansion.. we'll see how it goes!

[soul31 5]

FFG dunwich article says

"In this way, they may offer you a shortcut to sampling all the new level zero class cards arriving in The Dunwich Legacy, along with a new neutral card and cards with levels higher than zero."

 

Neutral card, not neutral cards. It means that article is hinting for one neutral card. Only thing we don't know is how many copies of neutral card there will be, 2 or 4?

There should be 59 player cards total:

4 X 5 X 2 = 40 ( 5 classes, 2 copies of each card)

 

3X5 = 15 (3 cards per new investigator)

 

That's total of 55.

Edited November 23, 2016 by soul31

[Elrad 250]

Thanks to the three of you for your answers, I will figure it out this evening as my order is due to arrive around 5-6pm (GMT +1 - Western Europe). I think I will give it a try like this and don't plan, in the near future to play with two characters of the same class.

 

But are two core sets yet enough to play with four characters of four different classes with 100% possibilities for everyone ? I leave the question open even if by tonight I will be able to see it by myself I guess...

 

@Doma0997 => still, I didn't get what you said about the 4 core sets : you have bought four of them to be able to play two characters of the same class at full power (without beeing blocked by stock conflict, etc.), if I play four different characters from four different classes, will I be ok with 2 core sets or  are  or 3 or 4 core sets are  needed to not have to struggle about the cards availibility ?

 

Thanks for your answers.

 

Elrad

[SuperMarino 138]

Thanks to the three of you for your answers, I will figure it out this evening as my order is due to arrive around 5-6pm (GMT +1 - Western Europe). I think I will give it a try like this and don't plan, in the near future to play with two characters of the same class.

 

But are two core sets yet enough to play with four characters of four different classes with 100% possibilities for everyone ? I leave the question open even if by tonight I will be able to see it by myself I guess...

 

@Doma0997 => still, I didn't get what you said about the 4 core sets : you have bought four of them to be able to play two characters of the same class at full power (without beeing blocked by stock conflict, etc.), if I play four different characters from four different classes, will I be ok with 2 core sets or  are  or 3 or 4 core sets are  needed to not have to struggle about the cards availibility ?

 

Thanks for your answers.

 

Elrad

 

 2 Core Sets is the MINIMUM required for 4 players.  So think of it this way:

100% possibilities, to me, means that you have the ability to put 2 of any class card and 2 of any neutral card in your deck at any time.  You cannot do this with 1 Core Set.

With 2 Core Sets you allow ONE investigator to have access to 100% possibilities.  So even though you could play 4 characters with 2 Core Sets, only a Solo character could have 100% possibilities.  The reason is because if you were to play with two investigators that overlap, like Roland and Skids that both use Guardian cards, you'll only have 2 of each card, where you may want each investigator to have 2 each.

With 4 Core Sets you can play both Roland and Skids and have, let's say, 2 Guard Dogs in both decks.

If playing with only the Core Set you would not ever need more than 4 Core Sets, as the way cards overlap you could 100% play 4 Characters, however once you add Dunwich Legacy you'd run into a problem.

Roland, Skids, and Zoey all use Guardian Cards, so in order for the 3 of them to all have 100% possibilities, you now need SIX core sets!  Those six core sets will almost let you continue to play other combinations at 100%, but it is slightly lower because any of the Dunwich Legacy characters can use cards from any other class, although in limited number.

So, theoretically for a 100% possibility for 4 characters, you will want 8 of every single card, which, for the core set, is only possible with 8 boxes.  For the expansions, you will need 4 of each (as all cards come in duplicate).

EIGHT Core Sets.  FOUR Dunwich Legacy.  FOUR Miskatonic Museums.  FOUR Essex County Express... et cetera.

 

Personally, that's overkill.  I recommend for 2 players that you use 2 Core Sets and 1 of each expansion.  That lets you get close to 100% for 2 characters as long as they don't overlap.  I couldn't really use Roland and Zoey together with this setup, nor Skid and Roland together.  For 4 players, I would double that - although that's where I would say I get 2 Core and 1 of each expansion, and let one of my friends do the same.

 

I hope this is clear, I urge you not to succumb to madness and end up with it all, but hey, that's your choice!  Have fun playing!

[shosuko 2,174]

Thanks to the three of you for your answers, I will figure it out this evening as my order is due to arrive around 5-6pm (GMT +1 - Western Europe). I think I will give it a try like this and don't plan, in the near future to play with two characters of the same class.

 

But are two core sets yet enough to play with four characters of four different classes with 100% possibilities for everyone ? I leave the question open even if by tonight I will be able to see it by myself I guess...

 

@Doma0997 => still, I didn't get what you said about the 4 core sets : you have bought four of them to be able to play two characters of the same class at full power (without beeing blocked by stock conflict, etc.), if I play four different characters from four different classes, will I be ok with 2 core sets or  are  or 3 or 4 core sets are  needed to not have to struggle about the cards availibility ?

 

Thanks for your answers.

 

Elrad

Sadly - no.

 

The rules for deck building allow a player to add up to 2 of a card to their deck.

 

The core set gives each player 1 of every class card, and gives enough for 2 players who don't overlap to build "beginner" decks.  You can play several combinations, but are obviously constrained by deck building and investigator choice since you only have 1 of every class card.

 

If you have 2 core sets you have 2 of every class card - this would give 2 players 100% deck building options, but you would still be constrained by which investigators you could play.  If you played two investigators with Guardian class, you would need to decide between you which deck is going to get which cards.

 

2 core sets can play 4 players in certain combinations only using the "beginner" deck build, which includes only 1 of each class card.  These decks are what I would consider well below 100% possibilities.  The players could trade cards with each other inside the classes to optimize their options, but it is likely they would both compete for certain cards, and be left sub-optimal.

 

2 core sets is ideal for optimized 2 player gaming.  4 core sets would be optimized for 4 player gaming.

 

For expansions - 1 expansion is going to give 2 of each player card for deck building.  What this means is - as long as you don't overlap with other players, you can build well out of a single expansion and stay 100% optimal.  Now another thing that happens with expansions though is that it expands the card pool.  This allows multiple people to play out of a single expansion, as they may not both want those cards, and this may open up other cards that these players were previous contesting.  I would say that 1 expansion is certainly good for 2 people, you MAY want 2 expansions for 4 people, BUT if you do 1 of each expansion, this will actually cover 4 players easier as time goes on, and the card pool opens up (as long as there aren't many dud cards that get released).

Edited November 23, 2016 by shosuko

[Helicon 12]

FFG dunwich article says

"In this way, they may offer you a shortcut to sampling all the new level zero class cards arriving in The Dunwich Legacy, along with a new neutral card and cards with levels higher than zero."

 

Neutral card, not neutral cards. It means that article is hinting for one neutral card. Only thing we don't know is how many copies of neutral card there will be, 2 or 4?

There should be 59 player cards total:

4 X 5 X 2 = 40 ( 5 classes, 2 copies of each card)

 

3X5 = 15 (3 cards per new investigator)

 

That's total of 55.

Good catch, I missed that that preview specified one neutral level 0 card. The first preview said, 'Five new investigators arrive to offer their services, armed with fifty-nine new player cards (including a complete playset of each)'. That suggests that the investigator cards are outside the 59 player cards, I think. So we have:

40 class cards

10 investigator-specific cards (including 5 weaknesses)

Then we have the neutral card - 2 or 4 copies, and in the last preview we also saw 3 basic weaknesses. My best guess at the last 9 cards is 4 copies of the neutral card (the appropriate number to having two copies per class card, compared to the core set), and 5 basic weaknesses cards, comprising between 3 and 5 different weaknesses. Having two copies of some and one copy of others would be in line with deck-building rules and the contents of the core set.

[Elrad 250]

A big thank to Supermarino and Shosuko for their long detailed answers, I keep them in my files for when I have fully checked this game at least once. I am not planning to buy 4 nor 8 copies of the main set, it's just to costly for me and wouldn't make any sense. I am not planning to play characters using same class cards but As far as I just received my boxes today, I'll just take my time to discover and enjoy this game.

 

See you soon, then,

 

And thank you again, guys

[Callistan 0]

I bought 2 cores and you can build 4 of the starter decks. If the core game came with one more copy each of Flashlight, Emergency Cache and Knife you could build all five starter decks - with no leftovers other than the handful of higher level cards

[shosuko 2,174]

 

FFG dunwich article says

"In this way, they may offer you a shortcut to sampling all the new level zero class cards arriving in The Dunwich Legacy, along with a new neutral card and cards with levels higher than zero."

 

Neutral card, not neutral cards. It means that article is hinting for one neutral card. Only thing we don't know is how many copies of neutral card there will be, 2 or 4?

There should be 59 player cards total:

4 X 5 X 2 = 40 ( 5 classes, 2 copies of each card)

 

3X5 = 15 (3 cards per new investigator)

 

That's total of 55.

Good catch, I missed that that preview specified one neutral level 0 card. The first preview said, 'Five new investigators arrive to offer their services, armed with fifty-nine new player cards (including a complete playset of each)'. That suggests that the investigator cards are outside the 59 player cards, I think. So we have:

40 class cards

10 investigator-specific cards (including 5 weaknesses)

Then we have the neutral card - 2 or 4 copies, and in the last preview we also saw 3 basic weaknesses. My best guess at the last 9 cards is 4 copies of the neutral card (the appropriate number to having two copies per class card, compared to the core set), and 5 basic weaknesses cards, comprising between 3 and 5 different weaknesses. Having two copies of some and one copy of others would be in line with deck-building rules and the contents of the core set.

 

From my experience with LCG - The core set is the only one you need to buy multiple times, and this is mainly because they want to include as many options as they can in the first box (meaning more variety, but less / no duplicates).  After the core set every release is going to be playsets of cards.  My assumption would be that the new box set will be 2x of every player card, neutral or class type.  No single cards, and no 4x. (Of course the investigator cards, and their unique player card and unique weakness will be singles since 1 of is the "playset" of these types.)

 

This is pretty consistent in LOTR LCG, Warhammer Conquest, and Netrunner.  Beyond the first core set, every release was a playset of everything.

 

ps - anyone else wish they would just release "core companions" where they fill out the cards to playsets without loading you up with 2x or 3x of the quest decks? lol  Or a "deluxe core" that was $80 but came with all play sets to begin with?

Edited November 24, 2016 by shosuko

[Noccus 324]

I just posted this on the LotR forum, but after checking here the post just might be relevant here too:

 

We played our first game of AH yesterday with 3 people using 2 cores practicing with the standard decks.

But roughly mid game we already saw that 1 or 2 more cores would make us that much stronger.

By being able to add the better extra 0-2 level cards the other player used in a cutsom made deck instead.

These cards were now taken however.

However, the questions are: was it doable? Yes. Was it fun? Yes. 

So imo, it's a choice; as you don't need it to play.

But if you are willing to spend the money to be stronger: go right ahead.

FFG is a company, and companies tend to want to make money.

That's just the way it is.

[SuperMarino 138]

ps - anyone else wish they would just release "core companions" where they fill out the cards to playsets without loading you up with 2x or 3x of the quest decks? lol  Or a "deluxe core" that was $80 but came with all play sets to begin with?

Ha! I said the same thing on the BGG forum, there needs to be a Dunwich Legacy Player Pack that gives 2x of each player card from the big box and associated cycle after the cycle completes. Makes a new player get everything they need with nothing wasted in buying scenarios.

[Elrad 250]

After playing my first game with the two recommended pre-constructed decks, I have seen the problem :

 

As every character can build his deck with cards from two different classes, it brings quickly to conflicts with some characters. I saw that every character can team up with only one other character who doesn't share any of his/her classes. and every character can, that way, go along with one of two different characters which is quite a nonsense to me.

 

So well I can still enjoy the game because it is really fun but going to buy two more coresets to freely beeing to build my team in the future games does strangle me a bit... While I don't plan on doing so in the near futuremaybe from time to time, when sales will happen i will put my hand on two more copies... If the exansion packs don't make it useless int he near future.

 

A question about that for the ones among you who already played some LCG's : is my above assertion right or not ? If I buy eventually 4 core sets but that, meanwhile, expansions will have been released, is it still worth to buy up to 4 core sets ? (yes for the neutral cards, of course but still).

 

By the way, but maybe it is me who hasn't read the rules carefully : when playing with two core sets and more than 2 players, do we add the additionnal encounter cards from te second set in the encounter deck of the played scenario or do we only use one encounter deck regardless of the number of players ?

 

Thanks to all 

 

Elrad