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emmjay

Who does the rerolling?????

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I also don´t really understand what the issue would be. If a card tells me to reroll my opponents die/dice, i am the one who does the rerolling.

 

What you may need to understand, is that for many of us this is a breach of etiquette. For me this will span over 25 years so it is a deep part of my psyche.

 

Now, think of something that deeply annoys and offends you. Chewing with their mouth open, coughing and not covering their mouth, sniffling and not using a tissue, driving with their high beams on, not indicating when changing lanes, queue jumpers at the bank. And so on and so forth.

 

That is what you just did from where I sit.

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I get it that you would be upset and I would be totally OK not touching your dice. But I understood that behind the etiquette issue is a belief that somehow the dice would be less good after somebody else touch them. The combination of a high sensitivity to this etiquette and of a what I see as highly irrational is very strange to me. Would you not let ever somebody touch your dice or is it only an issue during a game? What about people with kids, can they roll your dice?

Edited by wirbowsky

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I get it that you would be upset and I would be totally OK not touching your dice. But I understood that behind the etiquette issue is a belief that somehow the dice would be less good after somebody else touch them. The combination of a high sensitivity to this etiquette and of a what I see as highly irrational is very strange to me. Would you not let ever somebody touch your dice or is it only an issue during a game? What about people with kids, can they roll your dice?

I understand that there's a lot of gamer superstition with dice touching and whatnot. But for me it's also not wanting the liability of using someone else's materials. I used to have that issue in tabletop wargames, where I would spend hours and hours painting minis for a gaming event and sure enough at least once someone at the event would just walk up and pick up a mini without asking. Sometimes even during a game against someone else. I always cringed because what would I do if that person dropped the mini or otherwise damaged it? Sure, I could slap them in the head with a gaming book, but why bother taking the risk? Now I tell people up front if they want to see the mini, I can hand it to them, but people aren't allowed to just grab what they want.

The same has to be true in other games, like Destiny. I don't want to roll people's dice or handle their cards because who knows what could happen. When the rules call for selecting an opponents card at random, I point to the card - I don't pull it out of their hand like some people do. I just don't want to be responsible for handling someone's stuff.

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It doesn't matter who rolls the dice so why would you as a player go out of your way to handle your opponents stuff?

.

Why did you have an urge for cookies right after mum  said 'No Cookies before supper'?  I was COMPLETELY fine not knowing there were cookies.  But she let me know they exist AND to forget about eating them. 

 

THAT...makes me wants to touch all of the dices!!!  /evilrubhandsgrin

 

/jk.../sorta

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I get it that you would be upset and I would be totally OK not touching your dice. But I understood that behind the etiquette issue is a belief that somehow the dice would be less good after somebody else touch them. The combination of a high sensitivity to this etiquette and of a what I see as highly irrational is very strange to me. Would you not let ever somebody touch your dice or is it only an issue during a game? What about people with kids, can they roll your dice?

 

Etiquette often comes about for rather good reasons, for a miniatures gamer people picking up their stuff can cause damage to their miniature and some of us invest days in painting and modeling out little toy soldiers. It can also damage the game state, that model was in charge distance before he picked it up.

 

Superstition, what now? Not all that worrying to me, my dice usually hate me, that's not going to change. I think the idea of just not touching other peoples stuff without permission gives rise to the idea that if said stuff goes missing who will get the blame for it being missing? Or perhaps it could just be s simple as, do you know where your opponents hands have been and do you really want to go there?

 

As for kids, I have two of my own. If they want to play games with my friends and I, they are welcome to but they be treated as equals for the most part.

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I think in general the mentality comes down to whether your history is more of a card gamer (especially competitive) or a miniature gamer/roleplayer.

 

If you were a card gamer, you are used to giving your opponent chances to interact with your own valuable collectibles.  Every game, your opponent gets a chance to cut your deck.  You don't just shuffle and randomly pick one of your own cards to discard, you let your opponent randomly discard from your hand.  The fact of the matter is that your opponent handles your stuff and you handle theirs in part to guarantee fair play.  "I know he didn't stack his deck, how would he know I was going to cut/tap/shuffle completely (legal in Magic)."  You being the one to roll dice when your card effect allows you to prevents an opponent from somehow rolling to their benefit or doing a "bad" roll where they barely drop the dice and calling that their roll.  In a casual game, like minis and roleplaying usually is, if you suspect your opponent is cheating you just stop playing them; in a big card tournament where you don't know 99% of the players, that's going to happen anyway, and by the time they've moved on to the next round with a win, you not playing them won't matter.

 

However, in miniature games, as many people have pointed out, you spend a lot of time and effort on your models.  People picking them up without asking, even (or especially) children, is terrible, and if they drop and scuff or break a model, that's not a financial issue, that's time and effort of yours lost.  If it's in a tournament, you're proxying for the rest of the tournament; if, god forbid, the painting judging hasn't happened, it may affect your chances.  But that's not nearly as important as the fact that a thing you spent time and energy on, painting and arting and such, is ruined.

 

And the roleplayer, well, I've known groups that are superstitious and groups that don't care at all.  I've known groups where you aren't allowed to touch another player's dice, character sheet, or even sit at their usual chair at the table without getting at least serious "harumphs" and possibly getting blamed for every bad thing that decides to happen (instead of the GM, who is obviously the true culprit).  I've also known groups where one player will, as a prank, glue the other player's dice to each other when he's away from the table, and once that player realizes it's happened, starts gluing more of his dice together for the novelty of it.

 

Long story short, it all depends on where you're coming from with how seriously you will view this issue, and I think the best thing for everyone is to try and be respectful of the other player's wishes and to try to come to a compromise where both players are adamant about the way it should be resolved.  (No idea how you compromise, but it's worth considering).

 

Finally, good job FFG on making such a good game that pulls in hardcore card gamers and casual roleplayers alike with its themes and mechanics.

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Lets flip this a little.. Why would you want to be the one doing the roll?

My take, as a collectible game, I dont want someone else rolling my dice. Nothing to do with fairness though. If I roll a die off the table and have to hunt for it, my bad. If someone else rolls my die and does it.. I think my blood would boil.

I'll tell you which dice to reroll, you do it and vice versa.

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Actually I find the discussion quite interesting as we can expect that Destiny will bring together people with different background. The discussion started with the OP asking what will be the standard in Destiny concerning re-roll and possible faux pas.

 

Some reactions were, to me, really strong advocate of 'do not touch my stuff." Analogies were made to miniatures and to role playing games.

 

I do understand that miniatures are fragile and unique once painted. Even between people showing adequate care, there is still a risk of damaging them. So in this case, I appreciate that not touching other people miniatures ensure only the owner is responsible for any damage.

 

I have more difficulties with role playing example as I am under the impression that potential physical damage to the dice is not the issue. We assume that we are playing with respectable people and will show due care. If someone ask me not to touch their dice because he believes that somehow his dice would not roll the same after that or that I would steal his good roll, I can appreciate that this is an issue for the person and will not offence this person but we should also not take it to seriously and accept that is more superstition than fact.

 

I suppose that due to the collectible aspect of Destiny, for some people we are closer to the miniatures situation and some people fear damages to their stuff. I suppose it's a matter of how we see the risks. I consider the risk of damaging a die to be quite low and I wonder in which situation my opponent would roll one of my die in such a way that he has a higher risk of damaging the die than when I am doing the roll. (Noting that that the number of roll is identical whoever rolls them).

 

For tournaments, ensuring that the state of play is not changed is surely important but I believe it's the case whoever is doing re-rolls.

 

 

Then not to ignore the point of kopmcginty and flipping the argument, why would I want to be the one doing the roll? I see two reasons:

- an advantage in the flow of the game;

- "bringing your own luck";

 

For the flow of the game, I consider that if you are taking the action and you have to interact with some opponent dice than it is quicker to do it directly yourself.

In the games I played, we had a lot of interaction with Rey Staff (remove a die showing damage) and Force Throw (Remove a die to deal a character damage equal to the value showing on that die). Each time we played this, the active player would pick the die (his or opponent's) and put it on the corresponding card. 

I consider that it would be the same with a card like commlink (After you play this upgrade, you may reroll any number of your dice or any number of an opponent's dice). So I play commlink, I pick those three dice annoying me and I reroll them. Quick and efficient.

 

I called the second point "bringing your own luck" as I have no better way to call it. When rolling dice, nobody knows what the result will be which brings some sense of suspense. I personally like this moment when your opponent rolls his dice and we are both waiting to see what will be the result. May be your opponent will have a good roll, maybe not. He has no way to influence this (beyond game optimization of course) but we could say that he brings his own luck to this roll. I do find that when you act on your opponent die to disturb their plans, it's nice also that you do the roll and the end result is completely in your hand. Of course the chances are the same whoever rolls the die but the feeling is different as the person doing the action is the one taking a chance.

 

You use commlink and wants to re-roll all my dice. Be my guest... Let's see what good it will make.

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I think it's important to distinguish between the "legal person" and the "pysical person". If an ability tells me to reroll my opponets dice, then in a game state view it is for sure me that is doing the rerolling. If it is me or my opponent or his personal assistant that pysicaly pics up the dice and rolls them is totaly irrelevant to the game state (and to me).

I think this is the best way to look at it.  It's my effect re-rolling an opponent's die, and my opponent can re-roll it.  Effect accomplished.

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Heh. I played last night. I'd never dream of grabbing and rolling a person's dice. But I am the guy who reaches and grabs the random card from someone's hand like he's Doug Henning (David Blaine for all you children.) I didn't think about there really being no difference etiquette-wise. Luckily it was one of my closest friends and all of the stuff was mine. Glad I read through the entire thread.

Edited by bampop

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In my limited experience, so far, you might actually WANT me to reroll your dice because in the few times I did it, I made the situation better for them, and worse for me.

Having said that, I made sure it was acceptable before I touched their dice, and in future cases, I'll probably just let owners roll owners unless they insist otherwise.

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For me, I respect the other persons stuff. I want to reroll my stuff, and they can reroll their stuff.

I also enjoy rolling my dice. It's fun and keeps me involved on my oppents turn.

I can imagine where one person was doing so many control events on an oppents dice that their oppents would feel out of the game. Sitting there watching someone else play. Like they are quarterbacking.

I mean, we could play the game like the other person didn't have hands, but that's awkward. Most people will have hands, and simply asking, "can you turn x, or reroll y" seem polite and respectful. Or even, "Can I turn x, or reroll y."

I'll have cards picked from my hand; I'll have my decks cut; but please ask before touching my stuff on the table.

Ask you oppents first, and respect how they want their stuff treated.

Edited by Keigi

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For me, I respect the other persons stuff.

 

I think that's the central point of the discussion. It seems there is a range of definition about what means respecting the other people stuff. Personally, I do not see as a lack of respect to roll dice that are brought in a game. They are meant to be rolled and played with. I would see a lack of respect if the dice are handled in a way that is not what you can expect (I don't know, putting them in your mouth, throwing them to the ground...).

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For me, I respect the other persons stuff. I want to reroll my stuff, and they can reroll their stuff.

I also enjoy rolling my dice. It's fun and keeps me involved on my oppents turn.

I can imagine where one person was doing so many control events on an oppents dice that their oppents would feel out of the game. Sitting there watching someone else play. Like they are quarterbacking.

I mean, we could play the game like the other person didn't have hands, but that's awkward. Most people will have hands, and simply asking, "can you turn x, or reroll y" seem polite and respectful. Or even, "Can I turn x, or reroll y."

I'll have cards picked from my hand; I'll have my decks cut; but please ask before touching my stuff on the table.

Ask you oppents first, and respect how they want their stuff treated.

This is far too reasonable and logical for a forum debate.  ;)

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In my limited experience, so far, you might actually WANT me to reroll your dice because in the few times I did it, I made the situation better for them, and worse for me.

Having said that, I made sure it was acceptable before I touched their dice, and in future cases, I'll probably just let owners roll owners unless they insist otherwise.

 

exactly this hahaha! I roll so bad for myself I dare you to roll for me.

 

I see that superstition is a common good amongst the gamers here or anywhere else for that matter. But if it is stated that I reroll YOUR dice and YOU do not let ME roll any roll that YOU make in MY name and it is beneficial to you I will call upon the rules that I have to reroll not YOU.  This is also a bunch of hocus pocus superstition and if you respect your stuff, belief or whatever you'll have to comply to the other side as well. (somewhere along the line of Ïf you believe in Hell you also believe in Heaven!")

 

That being said I couldn't care less and I'll see soon enough see what my opponent wants. I am not afraid of a couple of bugs on my dice. and mostly I roll my dice in such a way it's always blanks. So please go ahead and reroll my dice.

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