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CatPeeler

Negative Play Experience (NPE) a sign of the need for a new/revised edition?

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...as soon as someone...that one person...the only opinion that matters is the person who doesn't enjoy something...

 

...If I were to say...that I find...

It's not about the game changing to suit one person. It never is. No one, other than you, has implied that.

CatPeeler has already called you out for such BS as changing what people are actually saying to suit yourself.

Stop it.

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The many says this game is fun.

 

And when the many say that something isn't good for the game it needs to be changed.

 

I just get tired of seeing people come here wanting the game changed, quite possibly ruining it for others or perhaps even everyone else in the name of "fun".  As if their concept of what's fun trumps everyone else.

 

The same thing happens in MMO's all the time someone doesn't like something and no matter how many other people may like it, they feel that their opinion is the only one that matters and everyone else should lose out on something they enjoy for their sake.

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It's not about the game changing to suit one person. It never is. No one, other than you, has implied that.

I'll grant that the OP wasn't actually doing that. But that doesn't mean it's never happened and won't happen again. I'm also not really talking about what the OP is asking, but rather pointing out the issue with that attitude that actually seen here from time to time.

Edit: I'll say this again... I have no issue with people who come here and say "I don't like X, what can I do?" or even what the OP said "I don't like X, is it just me?" Because those are questions and can help refine the game.

Edited by VanorDM

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The many says this game is fun.

 

And when the many say that something isn't good for the game it needs to be changed.

 

I just get tired of seeing people come here wanting the game changed, quite possibly ruining it for others or perhaps even everyone else in the name of "fun".  As if their concept of what's fun trumps everyone else.

 

The same thing happens in MMO's all the time someone doesn't like something and no matter how many other people may like it, they feel that their opinion is the only one that matters and everyone else should lose out on something they enjoy for their sake.

 

the other issue is its quite common for people who do like something to not say anything. In an MMO thats easy to see if its a minority of vocal players complaining vs a majority of silent players with no complaints due to subscriptions, in a boardgame thats not so easy.

Humans are quick to complain, slow to compliment. Yet people still expect the compliments or something is wrong for some reason lol. League of Legends to me is one such game that took a dump on its playerbase because it listened to the vocal players. I cant stand that game anymore, it used to be fun. So many changes, radical changes, because a few uber vocal people went on the forum and the people who had no issues were silent.

Edited by Vineheart01

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And when the many say that something isn't good for the game it needs to be changed.

I'm glad we agree.

So, as the 90% of these kind of threads, the cuestión is just about the percepción of "the many" and few else.

At thant point I would recomendó a reading of "false-consensus bias".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consensus_effect

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The many says this game is fun.

 

And when the many say that something isn't good for the game it needs to be changed.

 

...

 

 

Then it becomes the question about who are "the many"?  Are the many the large group of protesters that we see all over the news or are the many the far larger number that aren't saying anything for whatever reasons they may have?

 

If 26.3% say one thing, 26.5% say something opposite, but 44.6% don't state an opinion does that really mean there is a problem?

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The many says this game is fun.

 

And when the many say that something isn't good for the game it needs to be changed.

 

...

 

 

Then it becomes the question about who are "the many"?  Are the many the large group of protesters that we see all over the news or are the many the far larger number that aren't saying anything for whatever reasons they may have?

 

If 26.3% say one thing, 26.5% say something opposite, but 44.6% don't state an opinion does that really mean there is a problem?

 

Nope, there is no problem then because humans are naturally silent if theyre content. Usually if they do say something positive its a rebuttal to someone who said something negative.

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 ... So the contention here is that if more than 25% of players think something is problematic enough to go on record calling it an NPE, there's still no problem?

 

25%+ of the player-base is huge.  A company like FFG needs to jump -- and jump high -- if even 5% of the player-base expresses that something is a serious problem.  25%?  Somebody would be losing his job.

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Jeff makes a very good point here. "The many" doesn't have to be a simple majority like some might think. But very much more than one person screaming at the clouds Internet. The company would be able to determine what, to them, would be an actionable amount of dissatisfied players.

 

Because, yeah, if 25% of the playerbase said "F this game", then heads would roll at FFG.

Edited by kris40k

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There was a reason I used those numbers but Draconis's numbers could be more accurate when it comes to X-Wing.  I'm thinking there is a MUCH smaller percentage of people that you hear complain and who then ban together and make a nuisance of things until they get their way.

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1. That's a very particular party bus, I'm still only counting 4 damage, and that's with perfect rolls. On to the case of perfect rolls, your build lacks anyway to gain focus, target lock, and lacks Dengar. Your only dice mod is the wired that lets you reroll a single focus. If we're talking likely results a "good" roll would probably net you 2-3 hits at range 3, outside of the range 3 band it's worse off then a standard party bus and more expensive to boot. Another key point is it's relying on range 3 shots to justify the cost of Bossk and Mercenary Co-Pilot but this is the range that AT kicks in. You're paying extra points for this combo where the advantage of a extra hit is negated by one of the most common cards in the game.

 

It's almost as if you made this build purely to try and justify a hyperbole statement :P

 

HLC gets four potential hits.  Merc turns one into a crit.  Bossk turns the crit into two more hits.  Wired also lets you reroll all focus results.  Autothrusters means you take four damage instead of five... and most ships that can take autothrusters can't eat four damage.  Nearly the same effect at range one (albeit, without the guaranteed crit).

 

It still appears that I've failed to make my point, so I'll try one more time.  

 

It's not that the builds I mentioned are unbeatable.  It's that they are not enjoyable to fly against, nor are they satisfying to win with.  It used to be that there was really only one list like this--the quad TLT list.  Again, another list that wasn't unbeatable, but one that was boring to fly and also negated a huge number of opposing lists.  In my opinion, the number of lists in the same vein are increasing.

 

If you think these kinds of lists are a joy to fly with/against, or that it's entertaining to lose your ability to participate in the game... I have nothing else to say.

 

 

First off, I wish I could spam the like button more for some of Vanors post, he summed it up nicely.

 

So now we're adding a HLC? You're either purposely being obtuse or just changing the narrative when it suits you. Now we have a ship that's just under half my list, your complaint is that it can kill a ship that's a dozen points cheaper? Also I misread Wired, it's still straight up worse then focus or target lock, so the point still stands.

 

You say I don't understand your argument, that's not the case, you just haven't provided anything to back your claims. You also show a clear bias towards anti-ace tech. The key point is your statement "lose your ability to participate in the game," you have not even attempted to explain how any of the things you listed manage to do this.

 

Autoblasters and Mines are all about positioning, if you run into either it's because your opponent was able to predict you, or you messed up. That is purely player skill, and more importantly to the current argument, participation. And see that's where I'm wondering what your definition of "player participation" actually is, because as far as I can tell the only thing you have a problem with in the game is things that reduce the element of luck via dice. So basically your idea of NPE is anything that's not tied to the whims of dice.

 

I guess by your logic chess dosen't really have much player participation since I don't get to roll to see if my knight takes your bishop, it just happens, that about right?

 

Lets be honest, this was never about the general consensus of NPE, it was a nerf thread in disguise. You picked 3 things to complain about, Zuckuss, Autoblasters, and Sabine. What do all 3 of those things have in common? Firstly, Soontir and Fenn hate all 3. Secondly, every other type of ship or list couldn't care less to see them across the table.

 

That's why I'm calling BS on the whole "NPE" argument. You only bothered to call out things that effect a very specific build, are you honestly trying to lead me to believe that the poor Aces are the only ones with NPE?

 

You outright say none of these builds are broken in terms of power, but then say they're "NPE" without explaining how. If you want to continue this debate then can you at least stop beating around the bush and explain exactly what makes a ship "fun & fair" for you.

 

Also, if you want to call out particular cards or builds, explain exactly how they lower your participation or interaction in the game to the point of being considered "NPE."

Edited by BomberGob

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This was where I meant to post this, 

 

A main thought to come out of this is that (to use the example in the video), when ship A is supplanted by ship B, X-Wing players won't let ship A go and now consider ship A useless/broken and in need of a fix, which thus slows the evolution of the game, since instead of ship C we get ship A1.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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To  come back to the OP, most of the things he mentioned are counters to Imp Aces. Now if few people play Imp Aces, those counters are not going to be taken as often. So Imp Aces become viable again. That was what was so nice about Worlds. Dengaroo won, not because Dengaroo was overpowered, or broken. But because most people thought that his time had gone and he wouldn't be taken in the quantities he was, and so there weren't as many counters there to him as there were to Palp Aces.

 

This is great it shows that the system self regulates to an extent. And is not a sign of too many NPE, but a vibrant game...

 

Yes it is true that you can no longer stick together 3 ships you like the look of and have it work, but when was that ever really the case.

Edited by Rodent Mastermind

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To  come back to the OP, most of the things he mentioned are counters to Imp Aces. Now if few people play Imp Aces, those counters are not going to be taken as often. So Imp Aces become viable again. That was what was so nice about Worlds. Dengaroo won, not because Dengaroo was overpowered, or broken. But because most people thought that his time had gone and he wouldn't be taken in the quantities he was, and so there weren't as many counters there to him as there were to Palp Aces.

 

This is great it shows that the system self regulates to an extent. And is not a sign of too many NPE, but a vibrant game...

 

Yes it is true that you can no longer stick together 3 ships you like the look of and have it work, but when was that ever really the case.

 The problem is that players expect their favorite ship to fit into the current Power List(s).  Hence broke/nerf/fix or NPE.

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So now we're adding a HLC? You're either purposely being obtuse or just changing the narrative when it suits you...

 

Or alternatively, my original point wasn't about my specific build, it was about a broader issue.  When you asked how I was generating a specific number of hits, I gave you my specific build. 

 

For the umpteenth time, the broader issue is that of unavoidable damage.  The POINT is that the game has evolved from ONE point of unavoidable damage to builds which can ONE-SHOT a large number of ships without even rolling dice.

 

You say I don't understand your argument, that's not the case, you just haven't provided anything to back your claims. You also show a clear bias towards anti-ace tech. The key point is your statement "lose your ability to participate in the game," you have not even attempted to explain how any of the things you listed manage to do this.

 

Any time I am able to affect your ships without your being able to affect the outcome, I have taken away your participation.  

 

Ketsu swooping across the board at PS9 and automatically putting any small ship that isn't hugging the board edge onto an asteroid is an example.  If you move before I do, and you move slower than a large ship with EU, you're getting tractor beamed.

 

Hera doing the same thing at PS7 and nailing you with 4 automatic, unavoidable hits is an example.  If you move before I do, and you move slower than a large ship with EU, you're getting autoblasted.

 

Being shot by zuckuss/4-Lom virtually guarantees multiple unavoidable hits.  Yes, you may be incredibly lucky and get that 14% chance of rerolling an evade, but there's an 86% chance you won't.

 

The first two examples are cases where--for the vast majority of ships in this game--you don't get to participate in the attack.  Period.

 

The third is a case where your participation is so meager as to be nearly zero.

 

Autoblasters and Mines are all about positioning, if you run into either it's because your opponent was able to predict you, or you messed up. That is purely player skill, and more importantly to the current argument, participation. And see that's where I'm wondering what your definition of "player participation" actually is, because as far as I can tell the only thing you have a problem with in the game is things that reduce the element of luck via dice. So basically your idea of NPE is anything that's not tied to the whims of dice.

 

Outmaneuvering a slower ship with a lower pilot skill takes little skill.  

 

If you can't see the difference between attack and defense where both players are rolling dice, and an attack where dice aren't rolled at all, then we are at an impasse.  If you can agree that there IS a difference, and that the number of combinations that generate 'diceless' outcomes has INCREASED, then you are finally getting my point.

 

Whether you think this issue is a problem or not is a separate issue.  The reason this horse is turning into a pulpy mess is that you keep arguing whether a build is broken, while I'm asking if people are seeing the same trend that I do.

 

I guess by your logic chess dosen't really have much player participation since I don't get to roll to see if my knight takes your bishop, it just happens, that about right?

 

Lets be honest, this was never about the general consensus of NPE, it was a nerf thread in disguise. You picked 3 things to complain about, Zuckuss, Autoblasters, and Sabine. What do all 3 of those things have in common? Firstly, Soontir and Fenn hate all 3. Secondly, every other type of ship or list couldn't care less to see them across the table.

 

I have zero issue with Imp Aces.  I barely had an issue with pre-nerf Phantoms.  You know why?  Because you can actively defend against those ships.

 

Every single small-based ship at PS8 or below should be terrified of Ketsu.  

 

Every single 4-hp ship at PS6 or below should be terrified of Herablasters, and every single 5-7 hp ship at PS6 or below should be really freakin' worried.

 

I haven't directly addressed it until now, but every single large-based ship should be terrified by a cluster-heavy Sabine list.  

 

Yes, Zuckuss has the biggest impact on AG3+ ships, but going from1-2 defense dice to effectively zero is still a big freakin' deal.  If nothing else, it usually means you die faster.

 

 

(snip) If you want to continue this debate then can you at least stop beating around the bush and explain exactly what makes a ship "fun & fair" for you.

 

I've stated this already, at length, but I will try to put it in as simple terms as possible:  

 

If I don't even get to pick up my defense dice--whether it's one die or six--I am not participating in the game.  If I'm not participating in the game, only one of us is actually playing

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Rolling Dice =/= to Game Participation. 

 

Take 40k as an example. It has the You Go, I Go system IE you move all your models, and shoot. Then I move all my models and shoot... In the opponents turn I will roll 100s of dice for Armour saves etc. But I have made no decisions during that time so zero real Game Participation. I could get a program or ask my opponent to roll my dice and go get a beer.

 

What matters is decisions. manoeuvring to place bombs is a decision, placement of ships to block is a decision, guessing where Hera is going to land is a decision, choosing manoeuvres to dodge those bombs is a decision.

 

Unless you have tokens to modify dice then actually rolling dice is NOT a decision. And even then it's not a huge one... I've got hit by 3 hits... I have 2 Eyes, an Evade and a Focus token. It's really a no brainer. There are situations where choosing to save a focus is a decision, but most of the time it's not a big one compared to choosing manoeuvres or target priority, or what actions you are going to take.

 

IE.... YOU HAVE CHOSEN THE LEAST INTERACTIVE BIT OF THE GAME AND MADE IT YOUR METRIC FOR NPE.

 

Hell if you think rolling dice is interaction, might as well go play Snakes and Ladders.

Edited by Rodent Mastermind

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If you can't be bothered to push-plastic because the player opposite you wants to fly QuadTLT, PalpAces, CrackSwarm, etc., you might want to reexamine what you ever found "fun" about XWING.

 

Is it the excitement of guessing right with DIALS?

 

Is it the excitement of slipping free of arc with POST-POSITIONING?

 

Is it the joy of collecting beautiful models?

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The main flaw in your argument is that it's not unavoidable damage, it's unavoidable hits, you can't be hit if you're not shot, ran over, or blown up. So far every form of automatic hits has had an extremely limiting weakness built in. Unless they put in a range 2-3 autoblaster your argument simply doesn't hold water.

 

Is Zuckuss and 4-Lom incredibly potent at pushing damage through? Sure, but it takes 2 crew slots to cancel your opponents defenses and another spot to help insure you get hits in the first place. The only ships in the game that can carry 3 crew are all space cows, it's hardly impossible to get behind a fat ship that can't K-turn, and since it's stressed from Zuckuss, can't even make 2 speed hard turns. Even with the larger arc, that you don't get to use for HLC unless you're Moralo, it's not considered hard by your average Xwing player to get behind a Houndstooth.

 

It's probably the reason you don't see a second YV-666 running with Bossk & Gunner. Great firepower, but if it's your last ship against any decent dogfighter you're gonna lose the second he gets behind you.

 

Another thing is your absurd statement about Ketsu & Hera. Just so we're clear, you know in Xwing you both set your dials at the same time and don't show them until it's time to move right? The ship you're trying to land on could be moving 1 forward or 4, it could be making a 3 turn left or right, you don't know, that's the point. A large based boost is good, but it ain't that good. High PS dosen't change this very basic element of the game. You're talking about the range these ships can move as if landing perfectly on top of the opponents ship is a forgone conclusion, it's not.

 

Honestly this ain't even debatable, if flying in this game was so insignificant then the only thing that would matter is pure stats, or jousting value if you prefer. At that point it would just be throwing dice back and forth to see who the random variable favors better.

 

You say it's not about balance, but honestly it kinda is. The game is balanced around competitive play. One thing you had right is that the Ghost can put out  an absurd amount of damage. Yet we don't see it at the top competitive tables, why is that? Because it's not that simple to get into range 1 of a opponent that's more maneuverable and dosen't want to be in range one. Having absurd damage is entirely useless if you can't hit anything with it. That is the basis of the argument against you, and frankly the weight of 100s of competitive players outweighs your purely subjective personal experience.

 

I don't like to bring personal skill into it, as that strays into the realms of ad hominem, but the scenarios you list as "NPE" are only effective in the cases where one player is significantly less skilled then the other. So are you sure you don't just suck more then you think you do, or is it your opposition that's not up to par?

 

Because barring Zuckuss I've never heard complaints about anything else you listed, and even Zuckuss didn't get bi%&*ed about much until Dengaroo won worlds.

Edited by BomberGob

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After coming back and reading several pages of comments...I want to ask: What is the game?  

 

With many people on these forums, the game is 100/6 played for high tournament play.  Everyone is prepping for tournaments or at tournaments.  People say it's what the game was designed for (which is debatable).  It's what FFG supports.  Some people say that if you don't like this then you can just step away from the game.  

 

People question the numbers on how many people aren't having as much fun.  Many point to the growing numbers at tournaments and how sales increase.  It is a fun game that is simple at it's core, but complex to hold interest.  The game has also changed a lot in the years it's been out.  As someone who really built up my local scene I have seen a number of people drop out of the game.  I talk to them and ask why.  There is a sub-section of people that don't find joy in the tournament scene and it turns them off from the game.  As for numbers, I can't tell.  The game is growing and many enjoy the tournament scene.  There are some who don't.  It's more than 1 out of 20, but I can't really confirm much beyond that.  

 

What I dislike is when someone doesn't like the current meta 100/6, they think they need to walk away from the game.  There is a lot more than just tournament X-wing and I get sad when people spend hundreds of dollars on a game and then just walk away from it.  Or there are those that yell "don't let the door hit you on the way out" that really don't help things.  

 

If a couple of friends want to play the campaigns in the epic ships, are they not playing X-wing?  If someone wants to fight with some B-team lists at 100/6, are they not playing X-wing?  HotAC is also X-wing.  200 pt narrative games are X-wing.  Mario Kart X-wing is a variant, but fun.  There are a lot of ways to play the game that can still be fun to someone who is frustrated with the tournament scene.  I hate it when people lock themselves in with the mentality that tournament X-wing is the only way to play the game.  

 

I have found that even if you want to keep playing in tournament X-wing, it's a good thing to try other versions of the game to keep it fun for you.  

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Another thing is your absurd statement about Ketsu & Hera. Just so we're clear, you know in Xwing you both set your dials at the same time and don't show them until it's time to move right? The ship you're trying to land on could be moving 1 forward or 4, it could be making a 3 turn left or right, you don't know, that's the point. A large based boost is good, but it ain't that good. High PS dosen't change this very basic element of the game. You're talking about the range these ships can move as if landing perfectly on top of the opponents ship is a forgone conclusion, it's not.... Because it's not that simple to get into range 1 of a opponent that's more maneuverable and dosen't want to be in range one.

 

Dude, its Hera.

 

Do you know what her pilot ability is? Now look at things like Stay on Target, Nien Nunb, Engine Upgrade on a large base. You may want to rethink the "more maneuverable" statement.

 

Just saying.

Edited by kris40k

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I have zero issue with Imp Aces.  I barely had an issue with pre-nerf Phantoms.  You know why?  Because you can actively defend against those ships.

 

Every single small-based ship at PS8 or below should be terrified of Ketsu.  

 

Every single 4-hp ship at PS6 or below should be terrified of Herablasters, and every single 5-7 hp ship at PS6 or below should be really freakin' worried.

 

I haven't directly addressed it until now, but every single large-based ship should be terrified by a cluster-heavy Sabine list.  

 

Yes, Zuckuss has the biggest impact on AG3+ ships, but going from1-2 defense dice to effectively zero is still a big freakin' deal.  If nothing else, it usually means you die faster.

And yet they aren't terrified. You know why? As BomberGob has already pointed out, flying skill still matters even if you're lower PS than your opponent. If it didn't then PS11 Vader would win pretty much every game and we'd see a hell of a lot more of Soontir than we currently do.

 

Take a fairly simple scenario of Hera up against some random PS5 guy, Hera just behind the PS5. Assuming no obstacles blocking a particular direction, how do you guarantee you get to AB the enemy ship? Yes, you can rotate your dial but there's still restrictions there. If he goes straight and you go either side you can't always get him in your sights. 

 

I've played the AB Ghost and a Homing Missile Party Bus and they're scary but good play beats them easily. Note, the definition of good play changes depending on the list you're facing, which in itself can make these lists interesting. Some might even say the fact these lists exist and can change your play so much makes the game as a whole more interesting, not less.

 

(snip) If you want to continue this debate then can you at least stop beating around the bush and explain exactly what makes a ship "fun & fair" for you.

 

I've stated this already, at length, but I will try to put it in as simple terms as possible:  

 

If I don't even get to pick up my defense dice--whether it's one die or six--I am not participating in the game.  If I'm not participating in the game, only one of us is actually playing

I disagree. The game is about more than the combat phase. In order to be in a position in the combat phase to not be rolling defence dice I've either messed p or been outplayed in the activation phase. If I have a ship and, through my own mistake or good positioning by my opponent, I end up on an asteroid and don't get to shoot, is that also a NPE? I mean, I'm not rolling any attack dice, so I'm not participating, right?

 

Edit: adjusted examples to account for Hera's ability.

Edited by Jike

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