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Why hate rebel regen?

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This one has baffled me for a while. Why hate regen?

Most of the very best pilots+ships are the ones who can turn actions/maneuvers into hitpoints, the simplest method of course being: Taking an evade action.

Why is it that regenerating 1 hitpoint a turn is disliked more than generating 1 extra hitpoint per turn?

I can see a few counter points, for example: "You only get to use an evade if you get shot! Regen happens either way."

Reply: Regen ships are the kind of expensive that leaves very little else to be shot at on the table. The only scenario where regen is actually building hitpoints back is when youre not shooting the regenerating ship, at which point you've been outflown or outshot.

Or: "Regen usually isnt an action, R2 regens on maneuvers and Poe can use focus for free." Some of the toughest ships in the game generate their tokens for "free" too, for example Soontir's extra tokens that Like R2-D2 lock him into green maneuvers, or commonwealth defenders with their evade tokens.

Can anyone give me a good argument why regen is bad for the game? Im so far inclined to think it is not.

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I think regen is like you say very expensive but also very 'characterful' and on hero ships like poe or luke feels 'right'.   But then i'm a narrative player.

 

But in general game terms I dont mind it.  I dont mind playing with it or against it.

 

 

I much prefer game rules where the player has a choice (as in i choose to fly slow and get a shield, or i chose to focus and forgo my other options) than game rules that deny an action to a player.. like biggs forcing someone to shoot him or a recent encounter with a stress turret shadowcaster that just locked down the actions available to my pilots.

 

In a nutshell I think the OP is bang on.   Essentially the evade token is a free 'hit point' against anything short of an autoblaster or a character ability like vader (ok i know there are a few other things).

 

I have no problem with evade either... i just wish my xwings could do it :)

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This one has baffled me for a while. Why hate regen?

Most of the very best pilots+ships are the ones who can turn actions/maneuvers into hitpoints, the simplest method of course being: Taking an evade action.

Why is it that regenerating 1 hitpoint a turn is disliked more than generating 1 extra hitpoint per turn?

I can see a few counter points, for example: "You only get to use an evade if you get shot! Regen happens either way."

Reply: Regen ships are the kind of expensive that leaves very little else to be shot at on the table. The only scenario where regen is actually building hitpoints back is when youre not shooting the regenerating ship, at which point you've been outflown or outshot.

Or: "Regen usually isnt an action, R2 regens on maneuvers and Poe can use focus for free." Some of the toughest ships in the game generate their tokens for "free" too, for example Soontir's extra tokens that Like R2-D2 lock him into green maneuvers, or commonwealth defenders with their evade tokens.

Can anyone give me a good argument why regen is bad for the game? Im so far inclined to think it is not.

There are plenty of people who complain about ships that get tokens for free.  Indeed, probably the most dominant single force in the meta at the moment is /x7, and a lot of people have commented that it would have merited being a free evade ACTION so it's not stressproof and/or require completing the manoeuvre so it's not bump proof.  And Soontir always generates a lot of complaints when his star is in the ascendant.  It happens not to be at the moment though.

 

As regards regen and not needing actions...

 

With the exception of Miranda, who can't regen without shooting anyway, it's often pretty easy to run away and regen if you don't care about shooting.  Getting out of range with a fast ship isn't that tough, then staying out of range can be fairly easy with the right rock setup, as was ably demonstrated in the (?) quarterfinals of Worlds where Corran lost 3 shields to a perfect range 1 block/killbox... then finished the game with no damage at all after running away trivially the following turn and staying away till he had full HP again.

 

Evade tokens can't do that.  If you get spike damage through evade tokens, it stays there forever.

 

The main reason I personally dislike regen is that it fundamentally messes with the basics of the game in too large a way - because it gives ships potentially infinite HP.  And in a tournament setting can get really, really boring, when you get down to only one ship left, which is easy enough when you can get two regen ships in a list easily - I then can't kill it with one ship of my own because it's likely to be negating two damage a round (Corran, C3PO Miranda and Norra can all do this) and I'm probably averaging 2 myself, but I can't give up because MoV is a thing.  So I chase around a ship that's impossible to kill but doing little or no damage for ages.  It's dull.  Same as /x7 vs /x7 is dull, same as Soontir vs Soontir is dull.

 

I'm persuaded by the idea that the amount of regen a ship can do should be limited by its starting shields.

Edited by thespaceinvader

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I don't hate regen either, but I don't think it "works" within cannon and logic with its endless ability to regenerate shields. Token stacking is also annoying to face, but each round the protection system is a reset and other external and internal systems come into play to limit some of those attack mitigation devices, stress being the easiest apple to pick on that tree.

 

I see "end game" scenarios being the most frustrating situation when facing an regen addict. We'll probably universally agree that regen ships are best taken down while one has squad members to assist as they require focus fire (with blocking helps greatly), or secondary munitions that spill over with red dice. Chasing a regenerating ship that usually holds so many squad points in it is as much fun as balling out a slowly sinking canoe in the pouring rain. Perhaps the new Kylo card was a possible small attempt at giving a boost to those players who have real issues with regen addicts in their communities. Now that I think about it, I can recall reading many-a-post over my short time swimming through X-Wing information, where the basic consensuses revolved around limiting regen to a maximum recovery of new shield tokens that equal your ships original number of shield tokens, or something like that.

 

Blue Five has, once again, summed up the issue brilliantly, and I think a vast majority of players would agree with his assessment. 

Edited by clanofwolves

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Regen allows you to whiteout **** dice with skill (ie avoiding the enemy long enough to get shields back)

and anything that reduces the all too prevalent influence of dice is a good thing

so really, disliking it is just a question of "git gud" :P

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Getting free Evade tokens isn't the same as Shield Regeneration.  For one, there are ways to bypass Evade tokens, with things like Homing Missiles.  Next, some items will just deal damage to the target and bypass any Evade Tokens or green dice.  I'm thinking things like Bombs, Darth Vader, Asteroids, Autoblaster Turrets/Cannons, and numerous other methods of dishing out damage.  

 

Also, many ship with shields have more than one shield.  So, if you are able to get away for a turn or two, you can replenish your shields up to full value.  That's Shield values of 2, 3, or 4.  This is significantly different then getting a single Evade every turn.  An Evade token in a single round will only block one hit, but if you get multiple hits on someone who has regenerated 3 shield, then it's much better than a single Evade token each turn.  

 

Lastly, I think Shield Regen encourages running away for a few turns and hiding.  It's pretty annoying in a tournament when you are trying to kill each other...you are getting the upper hand, and then someone tries to run away as the clock is ticking.  So, you spend precious turns chasing someone down as they get back to full health.  Time might run out before you get a chance and it's much different than someone just getting a free Evade once a turn. 

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I don't hate regen either, but I don't think it "works" within cannon and logic with its endless ability to regenerate shields.

 

If the game operated by canon all shields would regenerate. X-wing was designed with gameplay in mind: it's actually very weak in the thematic match of its mechanics. It's not only the shielding mechanics.

 

The evade mechanic behaves like armour: it mitigates damage. If it behaved like evasion you'd either dodge it or you wouldn't. The current evasion mechanic is strong against many weak attacks but weak against larger, more powerful attacks. Doesn't that sound more like a heavily armoured or shielded target than an evasive target to you?

 

The current damage mechanic also couples damage and accuracy, which doesn't make much sense. Were evade armour then it'd couple damage and penetration which given ships fight with blaster weapons makes more sense.

 

Imperial Assault has a a similar combat dice mechanic to X-Wing but gets this right: armoured targets roll black defence dice with several Block results (which represent the ability to withstand hits) whereas agile targets roll white defence dice with far fewer block results but has a total dodge which causes the attack to miss entirely. This way around powerful attacks breach the agility shielding of hard targets whereas a flurry of smaller attacks are more likely to avoid the total dodge of agile targets.

 

With a design like this all ships would roll similar numbers of defence dice with the difference being whether those dice focused on withstanding the hits they take or taking fewer hits.

 

You'd then be able to make ordnance make more thematic sense: homing ordnance would cancel total dodges whereas torpedoes would have evade cancelling Crackshot effects.

Edited by Blue Five

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Getting free Evade tokens isn't the same as Shield Regeneration.  For one, there are ways to bypass Evade tokens, with things like Homing Missiles.  Next, some items will just deal damage to the target and bypass any Evade Tokens or green dice.  I'm thinking things like Bombs, Darth Vader, Asteroids, Autoblaster Turrets/Cannons, and numerous other methods of dishing out damage.  

 

And there are things that bypass rebel regen as well.  Like 14 point Wampa.  Or Proton Bombs.  Or black slicer tools.  Or soon to be Kylo.  And there are ways to shut regen down depending on the type.

 

R2D2 can be shut down via Ion Tokens, not to mention that it severely hampers the dials.  R5P9 can be shut down via blocking, Wes, Hot Shot Pilot, Pablo, Stress.  Miranda can be shut down via bumping and range control.  And they can all be shut down via Boba Fett.

 

PS - all of the things you listed are killer for regen ships as well.  With the potential except of Corran, none of the regeners are particularly good at avoiding damage to begin with.  Taking an extra damage via rocks, bombs, vader, etc is typically enough to deal lasting hull damage.  Not to mention that it can be done multiple turns in a row to easily kill them.

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People that lack priorizational skills, and therefore don't focus fire on the right target, hate regen. Not so big a deal otherwise.

 

So which ship should I prioritize first, the ship with regen or the other ship with regen?

 

Regen is a big prioritization problem. Do you focus on the ship with regen while you've got multiple ships to deal with them or do you focus your fire on the ships that the damage done is permanent. I've seen both strategies fail.

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You hate regen a bit when Corran with 1 hull slinks away then by the time you get him back in arc he's got full shields.

 

That's the one slight issue with regen in this game. If you don't take them out when you have the guns to do so, you usually always lose. You can regen indefinitely.

 

That said there are plenty of things that bypass shields completely now.

Edited by Jo Jo

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People that lack priorizational skills, and therefore don't focus fire on the right target, hate regen. Not so big a deal otherwise.

 

So which ship should I prioritize first, the ship with regen or the other ship with regen?

 

Regen is a big prioritization problem. Do you focus on the ship with regen while you've got multiple ships to deal with them or do you focus your fire on the ships that the damage done is permanent. I've seen both strategies fail.

 

Priorization is of prime importance in X-wing, with or without regen. When facing the same list, if you change yours, the answer can be different. Also, good opportunities happen, and sometimes you have to take them. 

But yeah, regen, or f.. good defense (that's you I'm talking about, bloody x7) is a priorization question : 

if you have the firepower to kill it, do it right away. If you don't, kill the rest, and try to lose less points than your opponent; after all that's how you win games.

 

Edited by Giledhil

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You hate regen a bit when Corran with 1 hull slinks away then by the time you get him back in arc he's got full shields.

 

That's the one slight issue with regen in this game. If you don't take them out when you have the guns to do so, you usually always lose. You can regen indefinitely.

 

That said there are plenty of things that bypass shields completely now.

 

Hehe... Usually Always... Hehe.

 

But you can have the same thing said about when regen fails.  I've had Poe be at full health eat 3 shields from an HLC IG-88 shot, regen one of them, and then die the next turn to 4 damage.  It sucks and it happens.  And that is less avoidable than letting someone slip away with just 1 hull.  Typically when you're at full health, you set up an attack run, and then when you get screwed by the dice and lose all of your shields at once, you are often not in a position to easily break off again.

 

Meanwhile, when you're deciding between chasing down someone with 1 hull or not, it's often a tough choice as to target priority and whether or not to pursue.  Do you do the hard 2 that leaves you stressed, gives you a R2 on Corran, but eating a R1 from his wingman, or do you let Corran disappear, and take advantage of the weakened offense of your opponent to blast Corran's wingman to oblivion before he can return.

 

 

The one aspect of Rebel Regen that opponents seem to always forget - when they run off and regen for 3-4 turns, the rebels have chosen to disengage and have decided to have their 50-60 remaining points go against all of your list.  You need to capitalize on that in order to have an overwhelming force remaining to kill the now-regened ship that was previously not in the fight.

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Generally, I think the regen hate is because it's just frustrating to fly against. I don't mind regen too much, but I get where people are coming from -- it can be annoying to deal with. I don't think it's any more powerful than a lot of other mechanics out there, but it is more frustrating. If you punch a damage through on Soontir, he might fly away and evade and never take another damage for the rest of the game; but you at least get the satisfaction of having put a hit on him.

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Getting free Evade tokens isn't the same as Shield Regeneration.  For one, there are ways to bypass Evade tokens, with things like Homing Missiles.  Next, some items will just deal damage to the target and bypass any Evade Tokens or green dice.  I'm thinking things like Bombs, Darth Vader, Asteroids, Autoblaster Turrets/Cannons, and numerous other methods of dishing out damage.  

 

...

 

PS - all of the things you listed are killer for regen ships as well.  With the potential except of Corran, none of the regeners are particularly good at avoiding damage to begin with.  Taking an extra damage via rocks, bombs, vader, etc is typically enough to deal lasting hull damage.  Not to mention that it can be done multiple turns in a row to easily kill them.

 

Yes, those things are good because they do damage and avoid defense.  Having regen shields are better than having an Evade for all of those, though.  It's not like having Shield Regen doesn't like being hit, but it's better for Shield Regen ships to be hit than those with just Evade tokens.

 

Also, you didn't address the point about ships with Regen tend to run away and that makes for a poor game most of the time.  Those with free Evade tokens tend to stay in the fight.

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The one aspect of Rebel Regen that opponents seem to always forget - when they run off and regen for 3-4 turns, the rebels have chosen to disengage and have decided to have their 50-60 remaining points go against all of your list.  You need to capitalize on that in order to have an overwhelming force remaining to kill the now-regened ship that was previously not in the fight.

 

 

 

 

 

Getting free Evade tokens isn't the same as Shield Regeneration.  For one, there are ways to bypass Evade tokens, with things like Homing Missiles.  Next, some items will just deal damage to the target and bypass any Evade Tokens or green dice.  I'm thinking things like Bombs, Darth Vader, Asteroids, Autoblaster Turrets/Cannons, and numerous other methods of dishing out damage.  

 

...

 

PS - all of the things you listed are killer for regen ships as well.  With the potential except of Corran, none of the regeners are particularly good at avoiding damage to begin with.  Taking an extra damage via rocks, bombs, vader, etc is typically enough to deal lasting hull damage.  Not to mention that it can be done multiple turns in a row to easily kill them.

 

Yes, those things are good because they do damage and avoid defense.  Having regen shields are better than having an Evade for all of those, though.  It's not like having Shield Regen doesn't like being hit, but it's better for Shield Regen ships to be hit than those with just Evade tokens.

 

Also, you didn't address the point about ships with Regen tend to run away and that makes for a poor game most of the time.  Those with free Evade tokens tend to stay in the fight.

 

 

Come again?

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Here's the disconnect for me, though.

 

R2-D2 costs 4 points.

 

X7 costs -2 points.

 

So yeah, considering the cost, i'm going to go ahead and say that X7 is better, just because it's 6 points cheaper than R2-D2 but does basically the same thing. Better, even, because if you spend those 2 points on Juke, you're also getting improved offense off of your defense. Cause yeah sure there are more ways to strip evades than shield regen, but i'm paying a premium to be able to do it. Defenders are getting points off AND the ability to get free evade every turn. And as has already been stated, just as much stuff gets around Regen.

 

Not only that, but even the ship that gets the most out of R2-D2, the ARC-170, STILL has less maneuvers that do it than the Defender does for X7.

 

And none of the maneuvers that trigger R2 are turns, either. 

 

It's just that X7 doesn't bother me, at least not gameplay wise. 

Edited by Razgriz25thinf

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I disagree, low agility regen ships (most of them are low agility, and even Corran doesn't have the aditional evades etc of most Imperials) are far easier to tag with effects. Ever tried getting an Ion shot on a Y-Wing or Arc-170, now compare it to getting a Ion token on Soontir or a /X7

Edited by Rodent Mastermind

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