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droz69

The case for immediately changing the wording on Kylo Ren Condition...

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The way I look at it, the main meta in Imps is

 

1) Palp + Aces

2) Palp + Defenders

3) Triple Defenders

 

So it's mostly small Aces, sometimes with backup.

 

Now Kylo look like he will be best in a Large PWT list, or backing up other ships. I don't think we will see Palp being put in the same list as him, as the only real way of doing that is a Decimator, and by that point you have spend 60+ points. Maybe backing up a Whisper... probably not as you are spending over 60% of your force on support rather than the things you are going to support. 

 

 

So if he's good, we will see another list, mixing things up, and that can only be positive. If he's bad (and I hope he's not) nothings changing, boo.... It's only if he's OP'd which I don't think he is that there will be a real problem.

Edited by Rodent Mastermind

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You see if Rebels had less list diversity than Imps or Scum I would agree. But it really doesn't, I can think of half a dozen lists off the top of my head that don't use Biggs.

Would you say the same things about Manaroo, or Palp.. All of which find their way into many lists because they solve a weakness the list has. If you want to take Glass Cannons in Rebels you take Biggs, If you want to limit the variance from green dice, due to having very few hits and needing to entirely dodge shots you take Palpatine. If you need tokens because your list has issues with Action efficiency you take Manaroo.

You can't complain if faction has a tool, and people use it. Rebel tanky lists don't need Biggs, those same lists don't have much of an issue with Kylo.

You see that's exactly the point you are completely ignoring. Right now Rebels, after months of virtual inexistence in the meta start having list diversity again, and being somewhat competitive.

And now, enter Kylo, bar most lists not having Biggs again... that's why Kylo is just ruining list diversity.

By the way we are just now discussing competitive imperial lists without Palpy, so don't compare him to Biggs, please!

Edited by ForceM

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You see if Rebels had less list diversity than Imps or Scum I would agree. But it really doesn't, I can think of half a dozen lists off the top of my head that don't use Biggs.

Would you say the same things about Manaroo, or Palp.. All of which find their way into many lists because they solve a weakness the list has. If you want to take Glass Cannons in Rebels you take Biggs, If you want to limit the variance from green dice, due to having very few hits and needing to entirely dodge shots you take Palpatine. If you need tokens because your list has issues with Action efficiency you take Manaroo.

You can't complain if faction has a tool, and people use it. Rebel tanky lists don't need Biggs, those same lists don't have much of an issue with Kylo.

You see that's exactly the point you are completely ignoring. Right now Rebels, after months of virtual inexistence in the meta start having list diversity again, and being somewhat competitive.

And now, enter Kylo, bar most lists not having Biggs again... that's why Kylo is just ruining list diversity.

By the way we are just now discussing competitive imperial lists without Palpy, so don't compare him to Biggs, please!

 

 

What I'm saying is it will make very little difference. Those list that are glass cannon-ey and need Biggs to give them a window for their Aces to do their damage, will still need him to do that. And those that never needed it will still not.

 

I'm not even sure he would be that good at taking down Rebel Ace lists without Biggs.. Aces are going to be high PS... So they are going to get a round of shooting in, Kylo and co may get a shot through their shield if they roll a crit, which is not guaranteed, and that crit isn't cancelled.. But it will still take a couple of turns to take down an E-Wing this way, the whole time you will still be shooting a big, easy to hit target. It's very possible you will trade a big Deci with Kylo on, for an E-Wing in the end.... I'm not sure it's a good trade.

Edited by Rodent Mastermind

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You see if Rebels had less list diversity than Imps or Scum I would agree. But it really doesn't, I can think of half a dozen lists off the top of my head that don't use Biggs.

Would you say the same things about Manaroo, or Palp.. All of which find their way into many lists because they solve a weakness the list has. If you want to take Glass Cannons in Rebels you take Biggs, If you want to limit the variance from green dice, due to having very few hits and needing to entirely dodge shots you take Palpatine. If you need tokens because your list has issues with Action efficiency you take Manaroo.

You can't complain if faction has a tool, and people use it. Rebel tanky lists don't need Biggs, those same lists don't have much of an issue with Kylo.

You see that's exactly the point you are completely ignoring. Right now Rebels, after months of virtual inexistence in the meta start having list diversity again, and being somewhat competitive.

And now, enter Kylo, bar most lists not having Biggs again... that's why Kylo is just ruining list diversity.

By the way we are just now discussing competitive imperial lists without Palpy, so don't compare him to Biggs, please!

What I'm saying is it will make very little difference. Those list that are glass cannon-ey and need Biggs to give them a window for their Aces to do their damage, will still need him to do that. And those that never needed it will still not.

I'm not even sure he would be that good at taking down Rebel Ace lists without Biggs.. Aces are going to be high PS... So they are going to get a round of shooting in, Kylo and co may get a shot through their shield if they roll a crit, which is not guaranteed, and that crit isn't cancelled.. But it will still take a couple of turns to take down an E-Wing this way, the whole time you will still be shooting a big, easy to hit target. It's very possible you will trade a big Deci with Kylo on, for an E-Wing in the end.... I'm not sure it's a good trade.

Ah yeah i am not talking about double Decimator lists actually.

Rear Admiral Chiraneau (46)

Veteran Instincts (1)

Kylo Ren (3)

Mercenary Copilot (2)

Gunner (5)

Experimental Interface (3)

Total: 60

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

You can swap EI for EU if needed and add any 40 point ace.

It's highly likely to get a crit through on anything but tokened up Palp Aces this way.

You also have higher PS than even Corran except if he takes VI too.

You can delete the PS or deny a shot. If you get 2 measly hits in he is dead! Not even talking about any other Rebel ace that has less evade chance.

That's how and why it will be played. And cause Rebels to just need Biggs over any of their tried and tested Regen Ace lists. Which is again bad for the game since these keep Palp Aces in check.

Edi: in addition this will also lead to even more 4TLT lists again because they are a great counter to the Decimator, and get countered by most Rebel ace lists in return. Is that really what we all want and deserve??? PWT vs 4 TLT all over again?

Edited by ForceM

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You see if Rebels had less list diversity than Imps or Scum I would agree. But it really doesn't, I can think of half a dozen lists off the top of my head that don't use Biggs.

Would you say the same things about Manaroo, or Palp.. All of which find their way into many lists because they solve a weakness the list has. If you want to take Glass Cannons in Rebels you take Biggs, If you want to limit the variance from green dice, due to having very few hits and needing to entirely dodge shots you take Palpatine. If you need tokens because your list has issues with Action efficiency you take Manaroo.

You can't complain if faction has a tool, and people use it. Rebel tanky lists don't need Biggs, those same lists don't have much of an issue with Kylo.

You see that's exactly the point you are completely ignoring. Right now Rebels, after months of virtual inexistence in the meta start having list diversity again, and being somewhat competitive.

And now, enter Kylo, bar most lists not having Biggs again... that's why Kylo is just ruining list diversity.

By the way we are just now discussing competitive imperial lists without Palpy, so don't compare him to Biggs, please!

What I'm saying is it will make very little difference. Those list that are glass cannon-ey and need Biggs to give them a window for their Aces to do their damage, will still need him to do that. And those that never needed it will still not.

I'm not even sure he would be that good at taking down Rebel Ace lists without Biggs.. Aces are going to be high PS... So they are going to get a round of shooting in, Kylo and co may get a shot through their shield if they roll a crit, which is not guaranteed, and that crit isn't cancelled.. But it will still take a couple of turns to take down an E-Wing this way, the whole time you will still be shooting a big, easy to hit target. It's very possible you will trade a big Deci with Kylo on, for an E-Wing in the end.... I'm not sure it's a good trade.

Ah yeah i am not talking about double Decimator lists actually.

Rear Admiral Chiraneau (46)

Veteran Instincts (1)

Kylo Ren (3)

Mercenary Copilot (2)

Gunner (5)

Experimental Interface (3)

Total: 60

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

You can swap EI for EU if needed and add any 40 point ace.

It's highly likely to get a crit through on anything but tokened up Palp Aces this way.

You also have higher PS than even Corran except if he takes VI too.

You can delete the PS or deny a shot. If you get 2 measly hits in he is dead! Not even talking about any other Rebel ace that has less evade chance.

That's how and why it will be played. And cause Rebels to just need Biggs over any of their tried and tested Regen Ace lists. Which is again bad for the game since these keep Palp Aces in check.

Edi: in addition this will also lead to even more 4TLT lists again because they are a great counter to the Decimator, and get countered by most Rebel ace lists in return. Is that really what we all want and deserve??? PWT vs 4 TLT all over again?

 

You get blocked, you get stressed, you lose your actions for any reason, your whole schtick fails.  And if you use EI, you get INCREDIBLY predictable.  A stressed Deci is really, really easy to predict and block.

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That's how and why it will be played. And cause Rebels to just need Biggs over any of their tried and tested Regen Ace lists. Which is again bad for the game since these keep Palp Aces in check.

Edi: in addition this will also lead to even more 4TLT lists again because they are a great counter to the Decimator, and get countered by most Rebel ace lists in return. Is that really what we all want and deserve??? PWT vs 4 TLT all over again?

 

 

Again and again and again and again, I see rebel players hammer the fact that their precious rebel aces will suffer from Kylo without Biggs.

 

Let me put this out there AGAIN, cause people dont seem to get the point. You are using a specific rebel archetype (regen aces) to complain about Kylo Ren being too strong, and that rebels as a whole will suffer. Any specific list/ship/strategy has a weakness. Corran may be an amazing pilot, so is Soontir, but there are things out there that will make them garbage.

 

The only type of person i can imagine complaining that his favorite little hero cant beat everything out there is 10 year old kids playing League of Legends. I sincerely am not saying this as an insult, I just cant imagine an adult thinking that a certain setup or strategy in any game has no weakness.

 

Now the really funny thing here is, the strategy you so love, regen aces, has a solution that makes it at least viable against those counters. This happens to be Biggs. For some reason, you just cant accept that. Regen rebel aces probably need a Biggs to work. But ooooh god no, you just want to regen Corran to be the overlord of x wing all by himself. And please note, i am not saying that putting in Biggs will make things just fine. A counter is a counter, Biggs just gives you a chance even against that.

 

What you are doing is the equivalent of Dengaroo players complaining that in order for poor Dengar to shine they are always forced to bring Manaroo. This is unacceptable! Dengar should just destroy everything in any setup and with any type of support!

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Imagine this list:

 

Chirpy w/Emperor and Kylo Ren

Patrol Leader w/Vader

 

 

**** list is nearly unstoppable.

 

Wording on "I'll show you the dark side" should read 'If a ship were to be dealt a faceup critical damage card'.  Otherwise, why play anything else, especially rebels.  Shields are completely useless.

 

Kylo Ren is only 3 points.  Sorry, I've never really been one to complain about anything in this game, as I love this game, but at this point, why even play?  I find it hard to not see that as an autowin.  You could even take the Emperor out of the list and fill it with 8 points of something else and it would still be devastating to anything it comes up against.

 

Ugh.  Sorry guys, this is the first time I've actually felt like I've wanted to just not play the game anymore.  I want to play competitively, but I also want to be competitive with lists other than something like the above, and I want to be competitive with all factions.  I love Defenders now, ARC's, the new Heroe's box set, even the original Xwing (fingers crossed a good fix comes out with Rogue One), the Protectorate fighter...I seriously love playing with all the ships because I've always found a way to be competitive with all of them...but now...when a single 3 point card can trigger a through shield effect practically every round...well...what hope is there in playing anything else...

The sky is falling?

Really?

Gosh.

Personally I hope Kylo makes Chirpy a force to be feared.

I love the Decimator, but haven't played it for ages, because, shuttle/palp/aces.

If young master Ren puts Chirpy to the head of the imperial playlist, then that will be great.

More ChirpRen means less Palp shuttle, which hopefully means less whining.

We can but hope.

And maybe one day imperials will actually play as powerfully as the internet thinks they are and they will win Worlds.

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Imagine this list:

 

Chirpy w/Emperor and Kylo Ren

Patrol Leader w/Vader

 

 

**** list is nearly unstoppable.

 

Wording on "I'll show you the dark side" should read 'If a ship were to be dealt a faceup critical damage card'.  Otherwise, why play anything else, especially rebels.  Shields are completely useless.

 

Kylo Ren is only 3 points.  Sorry, I've never really been one to complain about anything in this game, as I love this game, but at this point, why even play?  I find it hard to not see that as an autowin.  You could even take the Emperor out of the list and fill it with 8 points of something else and it would still be devastating to anything it comes up against.

 

Ugh.  Sorry guys, this is the first time I've actually felt like I've wanted to just not play the game anymore.  I want to play competitively, but I also want to be competitive with lists other than something like the above, and I want to be competitive with all factions.  I love Defenders now, ARC's, the new Heroe's box set, even the original Xwing (fingers crossed a good fix comes out with Rogue One), the Protectorate fighter...I seriously love playing with all the ships because I've always found a way to be competitive with all of them...but now...when a single 3 point card can trigger a through shield effect practically every round...well...what hope is there in playing anything else...

The sky is falling?

Really?

Gosh.

Personally I hope Kylo makes Chirpy a force to be feared.

I love the Decimator, but haven't played it for ages, because, shuttle/palp/aces.

If young master Ren puts Chirpy to the head of the imperial playlist, then that will be great.

More ChirpRen means less Palp shuttle, which hopefully means less whining.

We can but hope.

And maybe one day imperials will actually play as powerfully as the internet thinks they are and they will win Worlds.

 

Chirp is about to become a force to be feared again.

 

Because of Hotshot Copilot.  Chirp with HotCoP, VI and Gunner is scary.

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That's how and why it will be played. And cause Rebels to just need Biggs over any of their tried and tested Regen Ace lists. Which is again bad for the game since these keep Palp Aces in check.

Edi: in addition this will also lead to even more 4TLT lists again because they are a great counter to the Decimator, and get countered by most Rebel ace lists in return. Is that really what we all want and deserve??? PWT vs 4 TLT all over again?

 

 

Again and again and again and again, I see rebel players hammer the fact that their precious rebel aces will suffer from Kylo without Biggs.

 

Let me put this out there AGAIN, cause people dont seem to get the point. You are using a specific rebel archetype (regen aces) to complain about Kylo Ren being too strong, and that rebels as a whole will suffer. Any specific list/ship/strategy has a weakness. Corran may be an amazing pilot, so is Soontir, but there are things out there that will make them garbage.

 

The only type of person i can imagine complaining that his favorite little hero cant beat everything out there is 10 year old kids playing League of Legends. I sincerely am not saying this as an insult, I just cant imagine an adult thinking that a certain setup or strategy in any game has no weakness.

 

Now the really funny thing here is, the strategy you so love, regen aces, has a solution that makes it at least viable against those counters. This happens to be Biggs. For some reason, you just cant accept that. Regen rebel aces probably need a Biggs to work. But ooooh god no, you just want to regen Corran to be the overlord of x wing all by himself. And please note, i am not saying that putting in Biggs will make things just fine. A counter is a counter, Biggs just gives you a chance even against that.

 

What you are doing is the equivalent of Dengaroo players complaining that in order for poor Dengar to shine they are always forced to bring Manaroo. This is unacceptable! Dengar should just destroy everything in any setup and with any type of support!

 

 

Regen aces and Biggs lists are sometimes combined but are actually totally different archetypes. Rebel aces are more expensive than imperial ones and you can ahrdly afford one Regen ace, but not two alongside Biggs.

 

We have seen what happens when Rebel Aces are gone out of the meta. For over half a year until Torpscouts were finally nerfed. They are needed to bring balance to the force.

 

It's also plain unfair towards rebel players. Imperial Aces have always worked since the introduction of Autothrusters and the Phantom. With or without Palpy. Now they are back for 2 Weeks in the perspective that Kylo will come and just ruin it for them again.

 

The Dengar part is also plain wrong. I have actually never seen anyone complain about having to take Manaroo. Plus we had Dengar/Bossk performing excellently recently. This might also now be a thing of the past, since Bossk will also get shut down hard by Kylo.

 

Edit: By the way you got reported. Being called a 10-year old LoL addict is kinda insulting, even if you write next to it that it's not.

Edited by ForceM

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Imagine this list:

 

Chirpy w/Emperor and Kylo Ren

Patrol Leader w/Vader

 

 

**** list is nearly unstoppable.

 

Wording on "I'll show you the dark side" should read 'If a ship were to be dealt a faceup critical damage card'.  Otherwise, why play anything else, especially rebels.  Shields are completely useless.

 

Kylo Ren is only 3 points.  Sorry, I've never really been one to complain about anything in this game, as I love this game, but at this point, why even play?  I find it hard to not see that as an autowin.  You could even take the Emperor out of the list and fill it with 8 points of something else and it would still be devastating to anything it comes up against.

 

Ugh.  Sorry guys, this is the first time I've actually felt like I've wanted to just not play the game anymore.  I want to play competitively, but I also want to be competitive with lists other than something like the above, and I want to be competitive with all factions.  I love Defenders now, ARC's, the new Heroe's box set, even the original Xwing (fingers crossed a good fix comes out with Rogue One), the Protectorate fighter...I seriously love playing with all the ships because I've always found a way to be competitive with all of them...but now...when a single 3 point card can trigger a through shield effect practically every round...well...what hope is there in playing anything else...

The sky is falling?

Really?

Gosh.

Personally I hope Kylo makes Chirpy a force to be feared.

I love the Decimator, but haven't played it for ages, because, shuttle/palp/aces.

If young master Ren puts Chirpy to the head of the imperial playlist, then that will be great.

More ChirpRen means less Palp shuttle, which hopefully means less whining.

We can but hope.

And maybe one day imperials will actually play as powerfully as the internet thinks they are and they will win Worlds.

 

 

Actually Palpmobile will be pretty unaffected by Kylo, especially the older Soontir and/or Inquisitor versions. They can avoid being hit by Kylo better than anyone else.

 

It's the other factions top lists that get hit hardest, which is pretty sad.

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The Dengar part is also plain wrong. I have actually never seen anyone complain about having to take Manaroo. Plus we had Dengar/Bossk performing excellently recently. This might also now be a thing of the past, since Bossk will also get shut down hard by Kylo.

 

Edit: By the way you got reported. Being called a 10-year old LoL addict is kinda insulting, even if you write next to it that it's not.

 

 

That is exactly my point, will you ever get it? People dont complain that if they want to fly Dengar to maximum efficiency, they also need to put Manaroo in there. People didn't complain that until recently (pre triple Defenders) if they wanted to maximize the efficiency of their imperial ace, they had to add a Palpatine. Yet for some reason, rebel players complain that if they want to fly Corran, they ll have to also put Biggs as insurance to some counter list.

 

Its pure propaganda/marketing whatever you call it. I can find 10 people here and start trolling the forum that FFG sucks and cant balance a game because Dengaroo is sooo much better than Dengar + something else, and how sad I am that i am forced to fly that particular list instead of something else i would enjoy more. 

 

Cant you understand that you simply cannot have it all in a list? People here have given dozens of examples on how Kylo Ren will not have an impact, yet some of you insist on focusing on the one case where Kylo Ren is actually very effective and use that as a premise for declaring him broken (and to top it off: without EVER having flown against him).

 

lol @ reports

Edited by haritos

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The only change I think the card needs is the wording to be a bit clearer on how it works. But an FAQ entry will fix that. There has been a few cards recently which FFG have missed the ball on, Hot-shot Copilot is also obscure to the point where there a 3 different readings on how it works.

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Imagine this list:

 

Chirpy w/Emperor and Kylo Ren

Patrol Leader w/Vader

 

 

**** list is nearly unstoppable.

 

Wording on "I'll show you the dark side" should read 'If a ship were to be dealt a faceup critical damage card'.  Otherwise, why play anything else, especially rebels.  Shields are completely useless.

 

Kylo Ren is only 3 points.  Sorry, I've never really been one to complain about anything in this game, as I love this game, but at this point, why even play?  I find it hard to not see that as an autowin.  You could even take the Emperor out of the list and fill it with 8 points of something else and it would still be devastating to anything it comes up against.

 

Ugh.  Sorry guys, this is the first time I've actually felt like I've wanted to just not play the game anymore.  I want to play competitively, but I also want to be competitive with lists other than something like the above, and I want to be competitive with all factions.  I love Defenders now, ARC's, the new Heroe's box set, even the original Xwing (fingers crossed a good fix comes out with Rogue One), the Protectorate fighter...I seriously love playing with all the ships because I've always found a way to be competitive with all of them...but now...when a single 3 point card can trigger a through shield effect practically every round...well...what hope is there in playing anything else...

The sky is falling?

Really?

Gosh.

Personally I hope Kylo makes Chirpy a force to be feared.

I love the Decimator, but haven't played it for ages, because, shuttle/palp/aces.

If young master Ren puts Chirpy to the head of the imperial playlist, then that will be great.

More ChirpRen means less Palp shuttle, which hopefully means less whining.

We can but hope.

And maybe one day imperials will actually play as powerfully as the internet thinks they are and they will win Worlds.

 

 

Actually Palpmobile will be pretty unaffected by Kylo, especially the older Soontir and/or Inquisitor versions. They can avoid being hit by Kylo better than anyone else.

 

It's the other factions top lists that get hit hardest, which is pretty sad.

 

You say thay, and it's exactly why i'm gonna bring vader crew on my decimator. Kylo-Blind someone if he has low green dice, or darth vader-gunner them if it's an ace with huge stack of token. you lose merc-copilot but i think it's an acceptable trade :P

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The Dengar part is also plain wrong. I have actually never seen anyone complain about having to take Manaroo. Plus we had Dengar/Bossk performing excellently recently. This might also now be a thing of the past, since Bossk will also get shut down hard by Kylo.

Edit: By the way you got reported. Being called a 10-year old LoL addict is kinda insulting, even if you write next to it that it's not.

That is exactly my point, will you ever get it? People dont complain that if they want to fly Dengar to maximum efficiency, they also need to put Manaroo in there. People didn't complain that until recently (pre triple Defenders) if they wanted to maximize the efficiency of their imperial ace, they had to add a Palpatine. Yet for some reason, rebel players complain that if they want to fly Corran, they ll have to also put Biggs as insurance to some counter list.

Its pure propaganda/marketing whatever you call it. I can find 10 people here and start trolling the forum that FFG sucks and cant balance a game because Dengaroo is sooo much better than Dengar + something else, and how sad I am that i am forced to fly that particular list instead of something else i would enjoy more.

Cant you understand that you simply cannot have it all in a list? People here have given dozens of examples on how Kylo Ren will not have an impact, yet some of you insist on focusing on the one case where Kylo Ren is actually very effective and use that as a premise for declaring him broken (and to top it off: without EVER having flown against him).

lol @ reports

No indeed i can hardly decipher any sense in these writings...

So if i want to answer this it will be based on the assumptions of what i think you wanted to tell me.

To point 1. No, i did not ever complain that you are sometimes better off taking support ships than anything else. However the Example with Corran and Biggs is complete nonsense because i have hardly ever seen anybody try and hamper Corrans maneuvrability with Biggs. And for good reasons i might add. Biggs makes sense as long as you have ships with pretty similar dials and that have low survivability on their own in the early game. Norra or Poe would make sense, or a Ghost.

Also, if they would change Biggs' ability so it covers the whole map like Palpys or Manaroos, then you could tell me how universally useful he is for Rebels. Until then, please don't tell me no list without him should work. There are imp lists that work well without Palpy, Scum lists without Manaroo and there should also be viable rebel lists without Biggs.

To point 2. ??? No idea what you mean. I neither said FFG would not be able to balance the game (they did mistakes in the past with Phantom and Jumpmaster tough, which they tried to correct afterwards), nor was i complaining about Dengaroo here. I do think that Dengaroo is currently the list to beat, and that its indeed very powerful, especially Zuckuss, but nothing more.

To point 3. In my other thread about Kylo Ren i list a lot of counters to him in the very first post. I know very well that he can be countered. But i know the meta well enough to see that his main strength will lie in the matchups against Rebel Aces and Scum aces, while still being good enough and cheap enough in other matchups. And we have seen that Rebel Aces are a good medecine against the overflow of Defenders and PalpAces. Plus they just don't deserve getting kicked out of the meta yet again so soon after Torpscouts.

To conclude, i have a good tip for you forum youngling. Calm down man. Take a cookie. Then a good dump. Only then write a post. You won't convince anyone here if you insult them and then tell them you are right, because you have already told them you were right before... XD

Edited by ForceM

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