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markcsoul

A fair nerf idea for regen

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so long as there's also a cap to how much a ship can evade

 

a pilot doesn't hold unlimited stamina and even the greatest of us crack under enough pressure, and that's before we consider the ship getting beat up enough to start responding poorly to the pilot's input

 

 

but **** like this is why gameplay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fluff

 

adding limitations such as these is just unnecessary complexity, unless you just go whole hog and adopt Armada's system of defense tokens (which is awesome)

The "number of charge" mechanic already exists in the game, though, so that piece of complexity is arealdy there. Evades are completely different in that the evade token only does any good if you are getting shot that round.

 

 

no "number of charge" mechanic exists in the game

 

all that exists is building tokens on rey/crow/gonk, cards which are specifically costed in order to work with said mechanic and which have no upper limit

 

even comm relay, which only allows 1 evade token, can be refilled indefinitely

 

 

That's exactly the mechanic I'm talking about (and we also have EM as well).  We also put shields on cards to start the game.   It would not be any more complex to have a mechanic that starts with a certain amount on a card.

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If regen bothers you that much, start building to counter it harder.

R2-D2 requires a small set of maneuvers, you reasonably know where your opponent will go.

R5-P9 is hampered by tokenstrippers or action deniers. No focus, no regen.

Miranda will limit her damage output and if she is at full shield can be less effective by facing lower PS's.

R2-D2 has never been all that on an X, good for two shields maybe. Miranda really caused me issues with TLTs and concussions and conners (buddy's favorite build), but I finally found an LRS, Homers, Extra, Crack that has a 4 and 0 against her...I'm thinking X's might not like him fielded with the Inquisitor and an X7 D either; haven't had the pleasure yet.

1EC5FA75-9C63-4F53-B9E0-682DEAA4B7E1.png

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I'd also say this (not original I know): novice players (like me, haha) seem to lean towards a run to regenerate rather than gamble on a possible high results move and attack because they've lost a few quickly; then, they're butt is showing and they can get lit up, or at least certainly not attack. It can be a tactical crutch that trips you more than it helps.....practice and luck makes it work (like a bunch of AIs and mods).

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(...)

I think a fair solution would be as follows:

Update in FAQ

You cannot regenerate more shields in a game than the original printed shield value on your ship.

 

That means most ships who use regen in this game could only do it a max of 3-4 times during the game.  That's still more than I would like, but fair enough that I think most people could agree to.  I also put "original" shield value so that you can't regen an extra shield for having a shield upgrade.

 

What do you think?

Killing off Gonk for both Hwk and G1A. Just not worth it if you can only regen 1 shield once, at a cost of 2pts and 2 actions.

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Rather than nerf regen directly, just have ships over a certain cost give up half MoV when they drop to half hp. You can get shields back, but if you drop too low you're giving up some points.

This is, of course, assuming all ships over a set points cost give up half MoV like large ships do now.

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Honestly Evade tokens and Regeneratuon are more or less the same thing if you think about it. Regents is in my opinion worse because it takes longer to activate it, meaning you must survive the hit before you cancel the dice. In exchange though you can choose when it is most optimal to regenerate. Still though it's the same more or less. Especially if you are using R5-P9

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Rather than nerf regen directly, just have ships over a certain cost give up half MoV when they drop to half hp. You can get shields back, but if you drop too low you're giving up some points.

This is, of course, assuming all ships over a set points cost give up half MoV like large ships do now.

Or just leave it as it is since we seem to have a really nice mix of Regen, Large ships, small ships, etc. in the meta right now.

If anything rebels are at a small disadvantage right now since their newer stuff seems to not be as meta-worthy than the other factions. Well Norra could still make an impact and the Tie/SF seems to be a dud too...

But Rey could be a big deal and an ideal partner for regenerating Rebel aces in the future, since her ideal cost is about 59 points. And Poe, Norra, Miranda sit at some 40.

That could bring the factions to a completely equal footing again.

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Honestly Evade tokens and Regeneratuon are more or less the same thing if you think about it. Regents is in my opinion worse because it takes longer to activate it, meaning you must survive the hit before you cancel the dice. In exchange though you can choose when it is most optimal to regenerate. Still though it's the same more or less. Especially if you are using R5-P9

 

Regen is better simply because you can take 3 hits with Corran or Poe and come back later with full health. Evade blocks one, but once you've lost a shield or hull, it's gone - nothing you can do about it.

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So after another game today at my regional where a ship regenned waaay too many times, I once again really want to push for a nerf to regen.

 

It's been my least favorite aspect of the game for quite some time.  Nothing worse than having a 2-4 point upgrade give tons of extra hit points over a game if you keep running away to get them back.

 

However I realize many people like regen so I don't know how likely it is to get nerfed.  Some would say it's no different than some of the extreme damage mitigation other ships have.  But for me at least when facing those types of ships if you do get damage in, it sticks.  You know exactly how much damage you have to do to win.  Against regen you have no clue.  You could get lucky and kill them before they regen even once, or they might regen a ton of times.

 

I think a fair solution would be as follows:

Update in FAQ

You cannot regenerate more shields in a game than the original printed shield value on your ship.

 

That means most ships who use regen in this game could only do it a max of 3-4 times during the game.  That's still more than I would like, but fair enough that I think most people could agree to.  I also put "original" shield value so that you can't regen an extra shield for having a shield upgrade.

 

What do you think?

Please go read the anti-nerf topic that is going right now. I don't mean to entirely offend you with what I say...

Regen doesn't need Nerfing, there is literally viable rebel list being played in tournaments without regen. It is a cool aspect of the game and is not overpowered. If you would like an example of how we know it's not overpowered look at the list that won worlds.

If you don't like rebel regen learn how to fly and list build well enough to kick it's ass in a tournament, don't just complain on a forum about it and post a "fix" idea that would make regen close to useless.

It's not overpowered it's part of the game, and a really fun part of it.

The OP should actually read: I personally don't like regen lists and don't know how to fly against them well enough not to let them regen waaaaay to much, can you guys help me with a strategy on how to destroy regen lists?

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Honestly Evade tokens and Regeneratuon are more or less the same thing if you think about it. Regents is in my opinion worse because it takes longer to activate it, meaning you must survive the hit before you cancel the dice. In exchange though you can choose when it is most optimal to regenerate. Still though it's the same more or less. Especially if you are using R5-P9

 

Regen is better simply because you can take 3 hits with Corran or Poe and come back later with full health. Evade blocks one, but once you've lost a shield or hull, it's gone - nothing you can do about it.

But we are talking about ships that take more damage and have a harder time avoiding it, except for Corran, and he costs half your list. Unlike the ships that can evade

Come on there is NOTHING wrong with regen. It's not winning a lot of tournaments, it's only one valid strategy of many that can win you a game. And it's immensely important for Rebels at the moment.

So why in the world would FFG nerf it? Why would you want to nerf it? To have X-Wing with only Scum and Empire?

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I'll concede that most regen is probably fine. Miranda only regens with a shot and has 1-agility. Norra with R2-D2 is only 1-agility. Poe has 2-agility, but no evade action.

 

Corran Horn with R2-D2 (& PTL) is completely horrible. This combo is so good that it was runner up at worlds two years in a row. No other pilot in the game has been in the last two world finals!!!

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I'm a big fan of four-ship Imps, and I'm gonna use a Scimitar TIE Shuttle with Intel Agent and Darth Vader to deal with Corran in a... final... way. Not by itself, mind you, but in concert with a PTL Quickdraw, Zeta Leader, and Omega Leader, knowing EXACTLY where he's going to move should let me reposition the Scimitar or possibly ZetaL for a block, and give me more tools for putting OmegaL and QD in the right location.

 

Frankly, it's annoying to me. I really do dislike Corran. I mean... ugh.

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Not read the whole thread so maybe repeating some stuff here.

 

It is worth noting that R2 was in the core set.  R5-P9 is more limited and came out with the transport.  Miranda is the best implementation of regen so far as she can only regen if she is engaged in combat.

 

If the designers feel that regen is too much of a negative play experience then we can expect more cards that deal out damage cards.  Wampa, Advanced Homing Missiles, I'll Show You the Dark Side.  All fairly recent additions.  

 

I don't expect any drastic change to regen but I sure don't expect any more cards like R2-D2 either.  I would bet that R2-D2 and Biggs are the two cards from the core set that the current designers would most like to get a do-over.

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I'll concede that most regen is probably fine. Miranda only regens with a shot and has 1-agility. Norra with R2-D2 is only 1-agility. Poe has 2-agility, but no evade action.

 

Corran Horn with R2-D2 (& PTL) is completely horrible. This combo is so good that it was runner up at worlds two years in a row. No other pilot in the game has been in the last two world finals!!!

Most VCX builds cost less than Corran just to give you some perspective. At his point cost, he has to be able to survive a lot of damage, otherwise there would be absolutely no reason to use him. Take into account that he can die from 2 Wampa shots, get shut down by ion, BMST'd to death, ext. and there is actually a pretty massive risk flying Corran. He's also quite predictable with not very many green maneuvers, so it's not too hard to block him.

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Bring more ships, focus down regeneration. You should be able to kill a regeneration ship in one combat phase. If not it is no difference than flying on an asteroid. The problem is with the player not the game.

 

Now as for regen it would be nice if Imperials had some hull regeneration. 

Edited by Marinealver

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Now as for regen it would be nice if Imperials had some hull regeneration. 

 

Now we're talking! I've been thinking about a variation on R5-D8, but for the imperials (and then as a crew card).

 

[Unique crew member/droid]

Crew card

Imperial Only

Action: Roll 1 defense die. On an Evade or Focus result, you may recover 1 shield (up to your shield value).

 

That way, it's like "Gonk" in that it costs something (an action) and plus it has a fail percentage built into it, so that way the Rebel's still have the regeneration edge they've always had.

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While I don't know what the ratio is of casual players/buyers vs tournament players/buyers, I do know that casual players do exist, even if we live in the background quietly playing X-wing, one fun game at a time. Every time that there is a "nerf" (where on earth did that term come from anyways?) it inevitably effects the casual players as well.

 

When the TIE Phantom was changed, however justified the change was for good or for bad, it took away some of the fun that it was to fly the Phantom. When Deadeye was removed from every single large ship in X-wing creation, it destroyed one of my favourite combo's (that I came up with on my own - tinkering away on Fab's Squadron Builder, outside of the "tournament world") of using Dengar without the Punishing One Title, but using Deadeye, R4 Agromech, and two torpedoes with a Recon Specialist, and because I only own one copy of a JumpMaster 5000, I never would have thought of what ended up happening in the "tournament world" and so, more fun was stolen from me and my boy. In fact on the last change, I was loath to conform to the change, but I submitted to FFG and the community at large, being that I want to respect authority and the laws laid down.

 

And now this...only to destroy my boy's great fun in stumping his old man with regenerating some of his shields to hold on and best me in combat. Why? Why complain and find fault in so many great ships and upgrades. Was I thrilled about being bested by my boy in him using TLT's? No, but I learned - through asking the community for help - how to deal with it. Scum & Villainy is my favourite faction followed by the Imperials, putting the Rebels in last place (for me). However, please don't steal more fun from this game, please try something else if this game bother's you this much. Rather than spoil it for all of us, please try to be constructive or just accept the game as it has been designed, or find something else that suits your play style. I love this game, but it does make it challenging when some of my joy gets stolen because of large complaints as opposed to huge praise for FFG making such a fantastic game and working hard to trying to please us.

 

Are you really saying that now that we have had x10 Waves released, x4 Ace packs, x4 Epic Ships, x2 core packs, over four years of X-wing Miniatures, with x6 World Championships, countless FAQ updates, countless forum topics, now you want it changed? Please reconsider what you have started and accept what most of us seem to be saying.

 

With the greatest of respect,

 

God bless and try to have fun with X-wing Miniatures :).

You are playing fun games with your son, use whatever rules you like....

But I do agree that people complain way to much, the game is pretty good right now stop trying to break it.

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I'll concede that most regen is probably fine. Miranda only regens with a shot and has 1-agility. Norra with R2-D2 is only 1-agility. Poe has 2-agility, but no evade action.

 

Corran Horn with R2-D2 (& PTL) is completely horrible. This combo is so good that it was runner up at worlds two years in a row. No other pilot in the game has been in the last two world finals!!!

Most VCX builds cost less than Corran just to give you some perspective. At his point cost, he has to be able to survive a lot of damage, otherwise there would be absolutely no reason to use him. Take into account that he can die from 2 Wampa shots, get shut down by ion, BMST'd to death, ext. and there is actually a pretty massive risk flying Corran. He's also quite predictable with not very many green maneuvers, so it's not too hard to block him.

 

The best Corran Build actually is Advanced Sensors with PTL & Engine. This makes Corran unblockable and extremely unpredictable with pre-movement boost and barrel roll. BMST doesn't work against Corran when he has already cleared PTL stress with a green move after his actions. 0 ships in top16 at worlds had an ion cannon, showing it's not a viable option. Only K-wings have viable Conner Nets.

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 I would bet that R2-D2 and Biggs are the two cards from the core set that the current designers would most like to get a do-over.

 

Whilst I don't think that regen is 'broken' and needs a nerf, I've never really liked the way that R2D2 and R5P9 are able to regen shields from zero to full. It encourages Corran/Poe to just leave combat when there shields are down, and faff about regening them for several turns. It doesn't feel very dog-fighty to me, and I much prefer the design of Miranda, where you have to stay in combat to regen.

 

If I was on the X-wing design team (I can dream), this would be my rewrites of the Regen droids:

 

R2D2 (2pts): 'Once per round, after you lose one or more shields, place a shield token on this card. After you execute a green manoeuvre, you may remove a shield from this card to regain a shield.'

R5P9 (2pts): 'Once per round, after you lose one or more shields, place a shield token on this card. At the end of the combat phase, you may spend one of your focus tokens and remove a shield from this card to regain a shield.'

 

This brings the droids into line with R2D2 crew. If you can take 1 damage a turn, they're great upgrades, but as soon as you start taking 2+ damage a turn, they're only going to delay the ship being destroyed (which is still decent).

 

 

Plus my bonus Biggs redesign:

 

Biggs Darklighter: When a friendly ship at range 1 is hit by an attack, you may suffer 1 of the uncanceled hit or critical results instead of the target ship.

 

This stops Biggs from completely removing your opponent's firing choices, and instead makes them either split their damage, or target Biggs first.

R2D2: 'Once per round, after you lose one or more shields, place a shield token on this card. After you execute a non-red manoeuvre, you may remove a shield from this card to regain a shield.'

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 I would bet that R2-D2 and Biggs are the two cards from the core set that the current designers would most like to get a do-over.

 

Whilst I don't think that regen is 'broken' and needs a nerf, I've never really liked the way that R2D2 and R5P9 are able to regen shields from zero to full. It encourages Corran/Poe to just leave combat when there shields are down, and faff about regening them for several turns. It doesn't feel very dog-fighty to me, and I much prefer the design of Miranda, where you have to stay in combat to regen.

 

How exactly is trying to survive not dog-fighty?

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I'll concede that most regen is probably fine. Miranda only regens with a shot and has 1-agility. Norra with R2-D2 is only 1-agility. Poe has 2-agility, but no evade action.

Corran Horn with R2-D2 (& PTL) is completely horrible. This combo is so good that it was runner up at worlds two years in a row. No other pilot in the game has been in the last two world finals!!!

48 points, no Autothrusters, only 5 green maneuvers 3 of them straights...

He can stomp inexperienced pilots or anything with low damage output. (Like most ace builds...)

But he gets countered so easily and in so many ways it's not even worth discussing anymore.

In worlds he came to the finals stomping one Defender and Scum Ace list after the other. And lost against Dengaroo which is just logical for this list. It's made to do just that!

In your playgroup, he probably wins because people are plain inexperienced or just have no idea what his counters are, respectively are reluctant to fly them.

I mean instead if the usual palp Aces, just try Wampa out for once and watch Corran try and fly huge circles around him. Or grab a proton bomb, or slicer tools. Just try it out against him and them tell me he is OP again at 48 points before whining on the forum! Please!

You and me would probably not be able to go positive in swiss in a store championship with the runner-up list.

But no, instead this lousy unreflected argument of 2nd on worlds => op just keeps coming back!

Edited by ForceM

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All it takes is one Proton Bomb to ruin a 45+ point Corran's day.

Or an Advanced Homing Missile, for that matter.

Or a face-to-face encounter with Dengar.

Or a Conner Net.

Or enough focused fire.

Or the various Gunner mechanics in the game.

Or a higher Pilot Skill.

Or a Party Bus.

Ic you're having that much trouble with regen Corran, it's probably worth revisiting your own approach to the game.

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All it takes is one Proton Bomb to ruin a 45+ point Corran's day.

Or an Advanced Homing Missile, for that matter.

Or a face-to-face encounter with Dengar.

Or a Conner Net.

Or enough focused fire.

Or the various Gunner mechanics in the game.

Or a higher Pilot Skill.

Or a Party Bus.

Ic you're having that much trouble with regen Corran, it's probably worth revisiting your own approach to the game.

 

 

Or soon Kylo ren

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