Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
JimbonX

Why Imperial ships are op and rebels aew the opposite.

Recommended Posts

Rage is a pretty cool ept on the right ship - I've been experimenting with crackshot/rage green squadrons - but willfully double-stressing your list's two aces is one hell of a disadvantage, especially when the dials aren't that green-heavy. Poe in particular lives or dies by his focus. 

 

As my homeboy Aristotle said, over 2200 years ago, one 'swallow does not a summer make'. Get back on your horse and go again.

 

(Oh, and kill palp. You have the ps to see where the big mook is deploying, so just go hunt that white whale.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rage is good on Ezra and Farlander and i have tried it on 4-Lom too to give a few examples, but on any T70 that can't shed 2 stress a round it's pretty useless imho. If you have a smart opponent he will go after the double stressed ship and just punish it while it can't have actions.

Edited by ForceM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But no i would not say that Rebel ships are wirde than imperials, but they do pretty often pay a steep price for having such low agility.

That is what makes many of their aces that are expensive in the range of Imperial ones not very competitive, let's face it. Expensive Y-Wings, B-Wings and most X-Wings the like are plain bad since they are just on a timer for victory. If they can't outdamage the opposition, they will die. No regen, no agility means that they will take damage no matter what you do.

That is why Biggs is so important for so many Rebel lists. If you don't play ships that can avoid damage or regen, well then you need him to buy you the time to eliminate some of the enemy firepower.

So they kinda need Biggs like Empire needs Palpy. Because imperial ships are probably a bit better on their own, but their fragile nature makes you need the extra insurance that Palpy gives.

Then there are fir both factions these ships that don't really need Biggs/Palpy to shine. Sure they benefit from them but they are not a necessity.

For Scum it's actually not that different anymore. Manaroo is arguably even better than Biggs/Palpy at least with Dengar or in Attani Mindlink lists. That is because she is not as much a sitting Duck and her ship can be made so fast and elusive that most lists have a hard time getting her to grips.

Rebels are probably right now in the hardest spot of the 3 factions. They have had a lot less tournament victories lately and are only in the process of recovering because of the Scout nerf.

Heroes of the Resistance could however flip the balance in their direction quite a bit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anytime over the last 3 years someone says a faction is op I think about this quote from dark soul 2 and insert the faction into it.

 

Many kingdoms rose and fell on this tract of earth; mine was by no means the first.
Anything that has a beginning also has an end. No flame, however brilliant, does not one day splutter and fade.
But then, from the ashes, the flame reignites, and a new kingdom is born, sporting a new face.
It is all a curse! Heh heh heh!
And it is your cursed flesh that will inherit the flame. Heh heh

 

Past that random quote. The factions in X-wing are balanced, even with the new up shuttle coming out that can do 8 damage in a turn, I still believe the factions are balanced. Some ships are much better then others granted but each has something amazing to bring to the table.

 

Scum has Fenn Rau (dangroooo, and black market)

Rebels have Finn (Ray and new han)

Imp have Palp (quick draw, soontir)

 

See everyone is happy.

Edited by Cubanboy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just the other day my norra, biggs, Wes list took out palp defenders at a tournament with only losing biggs.

Then the other day at weekly league I lost with the same list against a different players palp defenders, 100/0.

It's almost like....player skill determines the outcome......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just the other day my norra, biggs, Wes list took out palp defenders at a tournament with only losing biggs.

Then the other day at weekly league I lost with the same list against a different players palp defenders, 100/0.

It's almost like....player skill determines the outcome......

Shut your lying mouth everyone knows games are won during list building, why do you liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiie???!!!

 

;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are imperials the best faction, super overpowered and impossible to beat - hell no.

 

Are defenders with palp now too strong - yes, I think so.

 

 

To sum up. I don't have a problem playing imperials - they have strong archetypes, but so do other factions. I don't even mind imp aces (Rey is PS10). I think defenders have too much going on to make them able to avoid damage, without the negative of low damage output that classic imp aces can suffer from.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are imperials the best faction, super overpowered and impossible to beat - hell no.

 

Are defenders with palp now too strong - yes, I think so.

 

 

To sum up. I don't have a problem playing imperials - they have strong archetypes, but so do other factions. I don't even mind imp aces (Rey is PS10). I think defenders have too much going on to make them able to avoid damage, without the negative of low damage output that classic imp aces can suffer from.

Yeah, that's why they win so many tournaments ;)  As our resident hobo eluded to, skill does play a part in any matchup...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Are imperials the best faction, super overpowered and impossible to beat - hell no.

 

Are defenders with palp now too strong - yes, I think so.

 

 

To sum up. I don't have a problem playing imperials - they have strong archetypes, but so do other factions. I don't even mind imp aces (Rey is PS10). I think defenders have too much going on to make them able to avoid damage, without the negative of low damage output that classic imp aces can suffer from.

Yeah, that's why they win so many tournaments ;)  As our resident hobo eluded to, skill does play a part in any matchup...

 

 

Tournament results prove very little. Worlds in particular - the rebel list in the final avoided a lot of the lists that would handily take it down. Good luck running Corran with so much stress dealing shenanigans out there. Then there was the top 8 (?) match, where Carnor took the initiative for some reason. Not to detract from the rebel player, he did really well, but he had some luck in places. 

 

As well, with defenders being a meta list, lots of people take hard counters as they are so prevalent.

 

Obviously player skill comes into effect, but you'd be lying to yourself if you said defenders weren't one of the strongest options out there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Are imperials the best faction, super overpowered and impossible to beat - hell no.

 

Are defenders with palp now too strong - yes, I think so.

 

 

To sum up. I don't have a problem playing imperials - they have strong archetypes, but so do other factions. I don't even mind imp aces (Rey is PS10). I think defenders have too much going on to make them able to avoid damage, without the negative of low damage output that classic imp aces can suffer from.

Yeah, that's why they win so many tournaments ;)  As our resident hobo eluded to, skill does play a part in any matchup...

 

 

Tournament results prove very little. Worlds in particular - the rebel list in the final avoided a lot of the lists that would handily take it down. Good luck running Corran with so much stress dealing shenanigans out there. Then there was the top 8 (?) match, where Carnor took the initiative for some reason. Not to detract from the rebel player, he did really well, but he had some luck in places. 

 

As well, with defenders being a meta list, lots of people take hard counters as they are so prevalent.

 

Obviously player skill comes into effect, but you'd be lying to yourself if you said defenders weren't one of the strongest options out there.

 

I think that the tourney results do matter because that seems to be exactly what you're arguing. If defender's are one of the strongest options, that is in the 100/6 deathmatch, no? The inference is that they are a winning list, yet the evidence points to the contrary. As had been said elsewhere, x-7 defenders have a high floor skill wise, which makes them prevalent. But, like the quad TLT (another 'high floor' list) it's easy to be mediocre to good with, but difficult to win a tournament with. I think as usual, the new hotness is what people are flying. That newness can equal some easy wins until folks figure them out. After the newness wears off though, they're just another good list in a game with a lot of good lists.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just the other day my norra, biggs, Wes list took out palp defenders at a tournament with only losing biggs.

Then the other day at weekly league I lost with the same list against a different players palp defenders, 100/0.

It's almost like....player skill determines the outcome......

Biggs is good. Very good. Expensive with 26p or more but good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are imperials the best faction, super overpowered and impossible to beat - hell no.

 

Are defenders with palp now too strong - yes, I think so.

 

 

To sum up. I don't have a problem playing imperials - they have strong archetypes, but so do other factions. I don't even mind imp aces (Rey is PS10). I think defenders have too much going on to make them able to avoid damage, without the negative of low damage output that classic imp aces can suffer from.

Yeah, that's why they win so many tournaments ;)  As our resident hobo eluded to, skill does play a part in any matchup...

 

Tournament results prove very little. Worlds in particular - the rebel list in the final avoided a lot of the lists that would handily take it down. Good luck running Corran with so much stress dealing shenanigans out there. Then there was the top 8 (?) match, where Carnor took the initiative for some reason. Not to detract from the rebel player, he did really well, but he had some luck in places. 

 

As well, with defenders being a meta list, lots of people take hard counters as they are so prevalent.

 

Obviously player skill comes into effect, but you'd be lying to yourself if you said defenders weren't one of the strongest options out there.

I think that the tourney results do matter because that seems to be exactly what you're arguing. If defender's are one of the strongest options, that is in the 100/6 deathmatch, no? The inference is that they are a winning list, yet the evidence points to the contrary. As had been said elsewhere, x-7 defenders have a high floor skill wise, which makes them prevalent. But, like the quad TLT (another 'high floor' list) it's easy to be mediocre to good with, but difficult to win a tournament with. I think as usual, the new hotness is what people are flying. That newness can equal some easy wins until folks figure them out. After the newness wears off though, they're just another good list in a game with a lot of good lists.

Like Fat Han and Corran/Miranda lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you may have missed the part where Rebels made up half the Top 4 of Worlds through a sea of PalpAce variants. If they can do it, so can you.

The force ia not strong with this one here...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In short. Imperial ships are too good for their points that they can easily dodge and get hits in on rebels. And Rebels are to expensive for their points and can't follow piccolos advise on dodge and can't hit well...

 

I mostly disagree man, I cannot see your argument. I'm no expert, but in my mat travels, I've found: 1) Yes, the Imps have their toys and they mostly revolve around evasiveness and hitting hard in glass ships. 2) But the Rebels are the most balanced and have defensive staying power, some nice synergy (especially with recent expansions) and solid hitting power; they are much more forgiving to fly. 3) Now the Scum on the other hand have the most awesome synergy, decent staying power and they also hit almost Imperially hard.

 

....do you want some cheese with that whine?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's Saturday, it's the weekend, it must be... JimbonX time!!!

Seriously, do you even netlist bro?

I didn't know I have a relative. Guess I have to relate on that.

 

....do you want some cheese with that whine?

Yes please and mayonnaise. Mmm hamburger and w(h)ine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Defenders aren't OP, but they're easy to play

I swear, I am sick to death of hearing this sentiment. It only looks easy when it's used by people who have practiced with it. Everyone sees the white K and thinks flying them is brainless, but most of a Defender's best maneuvers are 3 speed or above, and on an /x7 this is doubly true. Do you have any idea how much skill and foresight it takes to plan maneuvers enough turns in advance to make all your 3-and up maneuvers viable? Think of how many times you use them in a match. Many of your dogfight maneuvers are 1-2 speed, particularly with most other Imperial craft. It takes a lot of time and learning to see the board in 3-speeds, to set up those angles and lanes so that you can be taking those fast maneuvers every turn to get your title to trigger.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Defenders aren't OP, but they're easy to play

I swear, I am sick to death of hearing this sentiment. It only looks easy when it's used by people who have practiced with it. Everyone sees the white K and thinks flying them is brainless, but most of a Defender's best maneuvers are 3 speed or above, and on an /x7 this is doubly true. Do you have any idea how much skill and foresight it takes to plan maneuvers enough turns in advance to make all your 3-and up maneuvers viable? Think of how many times you use them in a match. Many of your dogfight maneuvers are 1-2 speed, particularly with most other Imperial craft. It takes a lot of time and learning to see the board in 3-speeds, to set up those angles and lanes so that you can be taking those fast maneuvers every turn to get your title to trigger.

Please dude I've been flying defenders since before vets and have had huge success with them I know the learning curve and how much skill is involved. Easy to play is not saying it is mindless. I'm referring to the fact that it isn't a ship where you are debating your move or action all game and one mistake costs you the game. For instance, it is easier to fly Ryad than Whisper because one mistake with Whisper and she's dead, where as Ryad has focus, evade, and six health. So it's very forgiving ship and if one masters it it becomes that much better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

The Defenders aren't OP, but they're easy to play

I swear, I am sick to death of hearing this sentiment. It only looks easy when it's used by people who have practiced with it. Everyone sees the white K and thinks flying them is brainless, but most of a Defender's best maneuvers are 3 speed or above, and on an /x7 this is doubly true. Do you have any idea how much skill and foresight it takes to plan maneuvers enough turns in advance to make all your 3-and up maneuvers viable? Think of how many times you use them in a match. Many of your dogfight maneuvers are 1-2 speed, particularly with most other Imperial craft. It takes a lot of time and learning to see the board in 3-speeds, to set up those angles and lanes so that you can be taking those fast maneuvers every turn to get your title to trigger.

Please dude I've been flying defenders since before vets and have had huge success with them I know the learning curve and how much skill is involved. Easy to play is not saying it is mindless. I'm referring to the fact that it isn't a ship where you are debating your move or action all game and one mistake costs you the game. For instance, it is easier to fly Ryad than Whisper because one mistake with Whisper and she's dead, where as Ryad has focus, evade, and six health. So it's very forgiving ship and if one masters it it becomes that much better.

 

Exactly this. A low skill floor doesn't prevent a high skill ceiling. Whisper and Echo have high skill floors, if you suck with them you won't get results pretty much eveer. They also have a high skill ceiling, since you can get extremely good with them by leveraging decloak blocks and strong manouverability.

 

Lists with low skill floor like quad TLT or triple/Commonwealth Defenders start giving you results pretty early. The difference between those lists? Quad TLT won't get you much farther. It has a low skill ceiling as after a certain point there isn't much room for improvement (you can improve your asteroid-field circeling only so much). The two Defender lists on the other hand keep rewarding you for being better - they have a high skill ceiling. Of course there are no set rules to this. Certain individuals roam Europe that appear to be able to push quad TLTs skill ceiling much farther than any of us would imagine and some new players don't get along with Defenders at all while loving Phantoms from the very beginning (I have witnessed this).

Edited by Admiral Deathrain

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Should be Free Evade Action on the X/7 title and Tie/D should had been -2 points also. The Defenders aren't OP, but they're easy to play and too difficult for local players to adjust because the best counters are bombs. Bombs however take so much skill to pull off. If the title was free Evade action it would allow things like the stress hog and Braylen to come into the meta and have an impact.

Ummmm bombs aren't the only things that kill defenders. There is a list of things that do.

Higher PS

Predictability

Lack of offense (besides the countess and colonel of course)

Multiple attacks

Ordnance

The list goes on. You just need to learn how to beat them. Best way to do that is to fly them yourself. Then the weaknesses become much more obvious

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Should be Free Evade Action on the X/7 title and Tie/D should had been -2 points also. The Defenders aren't OP, but they're easy to play and too difficult for local players to adjust because the best counters are bombs. Bombs however take so much skill to pull off. If the title was free Evade action it would allow things like the stress hog and Braylen to come into the meta and have an impact.

Ummmm bombs aren't the only things that kill defenders. There is a list of things that do.

Higher PS

Predictability

Lack of offense (besides the countess and colonel of course)

Multiple attacks

Ordnance

The list goes on. You just need to learn how to beat them. Best way to do that is to fly them yourself. Then the weaknesses become much more obvious

 

 

Yeah I was just giving an example of a really good hard counter. It is by no means the only counter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

Are imperials the best faction, super overpowered and impossible to beat - hell no.

 

Are defenders with palp now too strong - yes, I think so.

 

 

To sum up. I don't have a problem playing imperials - they have strong archetypes, but so do other factions. I don't even mind imp aces (Rey is PS10). I think defenders have too much going on to make them able to avoid damage, without the negative of low damage output that classic imp aces can suffer from.

Yeah, that's why they win so many tournaments ;)  As our resident hobo eluded to, skill does play a part in any matchup...
 

Tournament results prove very little. Worlds in particular - the rebel list in the final avoided a lot of the lists that would handily take it down. Good luck running Corran with so much stress dealing shenanigans out there. Then there was the top 8 (?) match, where Carnor took the initiative for some reason. Not to detract from the rebel player, he did really well, but he had some luck in places. 

 

As well, with defenders being a meta list, lots of people take hard counters as they are so prevalent.

 

Obviously player skill comes into effect, but you'd be lying to yourself if you said defenders weren't one of the strongest options out there.

I think that the tourney results do matter because that seems to be exactly what you're arguing. If defender's are one of the strongest options, that is in the 100/6 deathmatch, no? The inference is that they are a winning list, yet the evidence points to the contrary. As had been said elsewhere, x-7 defenders have a high floor skill wise, which makes them prevalent. But, like the quad TLT (another 'high floor' list) it's easy to be mediocre to good with, but difficult to win a tournament with. I think as usual, the new hotness is what people are flying. That newness can equal some easy wins until folks figure them out. After the newness wears off though, they're just another good list in a game with a lot of good lists.

Like Fat Han and Corran/Miranda lol.

 

 

Did you just call Corran+Miranda an easy list to fly? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you may have missed the part where Rebels made up half the Top 4 of Worlds through a sea of PalpAce variants. If they can do it, so can you.

 

Point well made... but one caveat. How many rebel lists made top 16.... popularity, "power" and player skill are BIG factors. Also, arguably ease of play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...