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eagletsi111

Lets fix Stress in the game

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2. Ships or personnel that can just keep on stacking stress. I cannot see how massive piles of stress is logical. If one stress is equal to a ship not being able to focus, TL, barrel-roll, etc. Two should double that hindrance, like make it unable to shoot or defend during an attack phase. Heck, three times the stress that keeps a ship from acting should make it unable to move at all. Maybe four times the stress should make the life support systems start to fail. See the logic? The effects should be doubled with the first addition of stress and then tripled, and so-on and so-on....not simply put in a pile.

 

I see your point. Part of the problem, though, is agreeing on what stress actually represents. It was originally pilot stress, as indicated by the "check pilot stress" step. The idea is that you are distracted by something such that you can't focus or take other actions that require skill. In the core set days, doing a Koiogran turn was stressful to the pilot, so the pilot couldn't focus after (basically during) the Koiogran turn because they were trying to pull off this very difficult maneuver.

 

But since then, we have things like Flechette Cannon and R3-A2. Just what exactly are these upgrades doing to cause stress to pilots? Wouldn't a 4-dice heavy laser cannon cause you just as much stress, if not more? So what we see is that stress has become increasingly abstracted. It is a game mechanic now with echoes of theme. Stress is now used as a way to balance cards instead of or in addition to using squad points. Part of this is the nature of game expansions. As you expand a game, you'd like to explore all the design space offered by the core rules before you start introducing brand new mechanics. The stress mechanic was ripe for exploration, leading us to the situation we are at now, where stress is a much more abstract game mechanic than it was back in wave I.

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2. Ships or personnel that can just keep on stacking stress. I cannot see how massive piles of stress is logical. If one stress is equal to a ship not being able to focus, TL, barrel-roll, etc. Two should double that hindrance, like make it unable to shoot or defend during an attack phase. Heck, three times the stress that keeps a ship from acting should make it unable to move at all. Maybe four times the stress should make the life support systems start to fail. See the logic? The effects should be doubled with the first addition of stress and then tripled, and so-on and so-on....not simply put in a pile.

 

 

Until very recently, FFG has played stress as more of a binary thing. "Are you stressed, yes or no?"  There have essentially been two stages of stress: 0 and 1+.  Even now, only Primed Thrusters care how many stress tokens you have, and I suspect that is more because repositioning abilities are already so powerful.

 

Given I did not get into the game until scum came out, and onto the boards until even later, was the stress discussion an issue during the heyday of the stresshog?  Admittedly I have only seen it flown once (I pretty much only play with personal friends; I have no FLGS), but it still piled up at least a dozen tokens all while shutting down other ships for turns at a time.

 

Zuckuss, I think, is being seen at his absolute MOST efficient (which relies on numerous other things to work), and not being seen for the "general use case", which is what FFG has to balance around.  Zuckuss on a G1-A or HWK is not nearly the issue that this thread would have you think he is.

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2. Ships or personnel that can just keep on stacking stress. I cannot see how massive piles of stress is logical. If one stress is equal to a ship not being able to focus, TL, barrel-roll, etc. Two should double that hindrance, like make it unable to shoot or defend during an attack phase. Heck, three times the stress that keeps a ship from acting should make it unable to move at all. Maybe four times the stress should make the life support systems start to fail. See the logic? The effects should be doubled with the first addition of stress and then tripled, and so-on and so-on....not simply put in a pile.

 

 

Until very recently, FFG has played stress as more of a binary thing. "Are you stressed, yes or no?"  There have essentially been two stages of stress: 0 and 1+.  Even now, only Primed Thrusters care how many stress tokens you have, and I suspect that is more because repositioning abilities are already so powerful.

 

Given I did not get into the game until scum came out, and onto the boards until even later, was the stress discussion an issue during the heyday of the stresshog?  Admittedly I have only seen it flown once (I pretty much only play with personal friends; I have no FLGS), but it still piled up at least a dozen tokens all while shutting down other ships for turns at a time.

 

Zuckuss, I think, is being seen at his absolute MOST efficient (which relies on numerous other things to work), and not being seen for the "general use case", which is what FFG has to balance around.  Zuckuss on a G1-A or HWK is not nearly the issue that this thread would have you think he is.

 

Zuckuss should be reasonable on a G1A actually, now that torp scouts aren't blowing them out of the meta entirely.  4LOM/Zuckuss/Fire Control System, say.  Get rerolls whilst penalising their dice and gaining stress to throw at people.

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If they were to change the stress rules I would make it so that if you have one or more stress any maneuver that turns you around is red. Make all K-turns Tallons and Sigs unusable while stressed(unless you have Hera). Dengar is such a pain because he is ALWAYS pointed where he wants to be no matter what. I hate Zuckuss personally but think he is fair if there is a drawback. It would also give you some counter play options against defenders 4King all day.

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Zuckuss on a G1-A or HWK is not nearly the issue that this thread would have you think he is.

 

Zuckuss should be reasonable on a G1A actually, now that torp scouts aren't blowing them out of the meta entirely.  4LOM/Zuckuss/Fire Control System, say.  Get rerolls whilst penalising their dice and gaining stress to throw at people.

 

That was kind of my point, so I agree! ^_^ I was not trying to imply that Zuckuss anywhere else is bad, he's not, and he was clearly designed for his interaction with pilot 4-LOM.  I was just trying to say that if Denagroo had not become a thing that just won worlds, Zuckuss would not be the boogey-man this thread makes him out to be.  Looking at his most efficient scenario (where he can pile up stress on a pilot that still gets full dice mods) and declaring Zuckuss to be a problem is a knee jerk reaction.  Changing whole game mechanics to compensate is simply jerking the other knee.

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I hate Zuckuss personally but think he is fair if there is a drawback.

You do realize that Dengar feels the drawback of Zuckuss so strongly Dengaroo invests 40 points to eliminate it, right?0

No Dengaroo invests 40+ points in another ship to gain MANY advantages not just to mitigate Zuckuss. Unlimited focus being more important than Zuckuss rerolls.

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Wouldn't it just be easier to give Zuckuss a stress cap? A lot of effects can't be used if you have any stress and you've got others (like Primed Thrusters) that only work when you possess less than a certain amount of stress.

Definately, makes no sense it has no restrictions when Elusiveness is "if you have no stress" and Expert Handling is "if you have no stress" and Opportunist is "if you have no stress". Overclocked R4 has no restrictions, wtf! Zuckuss no restritions, wtf!

 

I think they limited Primed Thrusters to 3 stress because of Zuckuss abuse.

 

Maybe BMST should have included "you may remove any amount of stress from the enemy ship, deal 1 dmg per stress removed." Then a Z-95 could essential one-shot Dengar with stress abuse.

But what about poor tycho?

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Wouldn't it just be easier to give Zuckuss a stress cap? A lot of effects can't be used if you have any stress and you've got others (like Primed Thrusters) that only work when you possess less than a certain amount of stress.

Definately, makes no sense it has no restrictions when Elusiveness is "if you have no stress" and Expert Handling is "if you have no stress" and Opportunist is "if you have no stress". Overclocked R4 has no restrictions, wtf! Zuckuss no restritions, wtf!

 

I think they limited Primed Thrusters to 3 stress because of Zuckuss abuse.

 

Maybe BMST should have included "you may remove any amount of stress from the enemy ship, deal 1 dmg per stress removed." Then a Z-95 could essential one-shot Dengar with stress abuse.

But what about poor tycho?

Make Tycho in an X-wing with a new ability?

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I am not in favor of a change to the core rules concerning stress.

 

FFG is doing a good job of curbing over-stress with BMST, and I'm sure they'll have more they can do in the future.

Yeah except we shouldn't have to fly Scum and lose an action because an upgrade card is broken.

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I am not in favor of a change to the core rules concerning stress.

 

FFG is doing a good job of curbing over-stress with BMST, and I'm sure they'll have more they can do in the future.

 

In my opinion, BMST should'a been ships that have "2 stress or more."

 

 

If you are going to change BMST then I think I'd rather see BMST allowing you to throw up to one red die per stress token. If there are any hits or crit results the target suffers a single damage as they do with the current card. Regardless of the results, the target clears one stress for each die that the BMST user chose to roll. 

It makes BMST almost guaranteed damage against something like Dengaroo, strengthens it in squads with weaponized stress, and weakens it a bit against ships are getting stress from K-Turning or use PTLing. A BMST swarm has to decide whether they want a higher chance to do damage or a higher maximum damage when facing a stress stacker.

Yeah, it kind of sucks for Tycho but Tycho doesn't have to stack stress. There are plenty of other pilot abilities and EPTs that become almost useless against the certain squads so I don't see any reason to that Tycho's ability should be sacrosanct.  

Edited by WWHSD

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Wouldn't it just be easier to give Zuckuss a stress cap? A lot of effects can't be used if you have any stress and you've got others (like Primed Thrusters) that only work when you possess less than a certain amount of stress.

Definately, makes no sense it has no restrictions when Elusiveness is "if you have no stress" and Expert Handling is "if you have no stress" and Opportunist is "if you have no stress". Overclocked R4 has no restrictions, wtf! Zuckuss no restritions, wtf!

 

I think they limited Primed Thrusters to 3 stress because of Zuckuss abuse.

 

Maybe BMST should have included "you may remove any amount of stress from the enemy ship, deal 1 dmg per stress removed." Then a Z-95 could essential one-shot Dengar with stress abuse.

But what about poor tycho?

Make Tycho in an X-wing with a new ability?

I'd be fine with that, I was just saying that a-wing tycho kind of needs his ability to help him stay alive long, and if BMST was worded the way wurms said it should, I don't think tycho would ever see play

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Wouldn't it just be easier to give Zuckuss a stress cap? A lot of effects can't be used if you have any stress and you've got others (like Primed Thrusters) that only work when you possess less than a certain amount of stress.

Definately, makes no sense it has no restrictions when Elusiveness is "if you have no stress" and Expert Handling is "if you have no stress" and Opportunist is "if you have no stress". Overclocked R4 has no restrictions, wtf! Zuckuss no restritions, wtf!

 

I think they limited Primed Thrusters to 3 stress because of Zuckuss abuse.

 

Maybe BMST should have included "you may remove any amount of stress from the enemy ship, deal 1 dmg per stress removed." Then a Z-95 could essential one-shot Dengar with stress abuse.

But what about poor tycho?

Make Tycho in an X-wing with a new ability?

I'd be fine with that, I was just saying that a-wing tycho kind of needs his ability to help him stay alive long, and if BMST was worded the way wurms said it should, I don't think tycho would ever see play

 

 

Having BMST deal a point of automatic damage for each stress token it removes would be a silly amount of broken. Anything that caused self stress would almost completely disappear from the game, not just Tycho.

Edited by WWHSD

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Having BMST deal a point of automatic damage for each stress token it removes would be a silly amount of broken. Anything that caused self stress would almost completely disappear from the game, not just Tycho.

 

It's not just self-stress.  Don't forget two Rebel ships can get BMST.  Fly those alongside a stresshog (Y-Wing or Arc version).  Now you can double (or even triple stress) an enemy ship, then strip those tokens with the opponent able to do nothing about it.

 

Ahsoka Tano (21)

Sabine's TIE Fighter (17), Veteran Instincts (1), Sabine's Masterpiece (1), Captured TIE (1), Black Market Slicer Tools (1)

Braylen Stramm (32)

ARC-170 (25), R3-A2 (2), Gunner (5), Alliance Overhaul (0)

 

Still leaves 47 points for a heavy hitter, more if you swap the Gunner for a Tactician and stay at range 2.

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I hate Zuckuss personally but think he is fair if there is a drawback.

You do realize that Dengar feels the drawback of Zuckuss so strongly Dengaroo invests 40 points to eliminate it, right?0

No Dengaroo invests 40+ points in another ship to gain MANY advantages not just to mitigate Zuckuss. Unlimited focus being more important than Zuckuss rerolls.

The early successful vrrsions of Dengaroo used RecSpec on Manaroo and Painbot on Dengar. I still run my Dengaroo so because in my time with the list there were many more timesI wasglad I had a Painbot or 3 speed greens on Manaroo than times I was sad I didn't have a 3rd focus token.

Therefore, at least some versions of Dengaroo have used 40+ points almost exclusively to negate the drawback of Zuckuss.

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I don't think the meta has settled yet from that explosive FAQ two weeks back.

 

If Dengaroo becomes the new TIE schrodinger/Fat Falcon MoV Fortress/TorpScout then FFG will take action. I'm not sure it is though: I think it, like the huge success of PalpAces (which didn't make the final at Worlds) is a product of the TorpScout meta and with that threat gone may simmer down a bit.

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I do find it strange that zuckuss shows up prominently in two builds

 

one of which, Dengaroo, has been fairly notorious for a while and recently won worlds

 

and yet Zuckuss is the thing people want addressed

 

(or overall stress mechanics)

 

 

which seems like some horrible self mis-direction. You'd want to address Dengaroo, first

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I hate Zuckuss personally but think he is fair if there is a drawback.

You do realize that Dengar feels the drawback of Zuckuss so strongly Dengaroo invests 40 points to eliminate it, right?0

No Dengaroo invests 40+ points in another ship to gain MANY advantages not just to mitigate Zuckuss. Unlimited focus being more important than Zuckuss rerolls.

The early successful vrrsions of Dengaroo used RecSpec on Manaroo and Painbot on Dengar. I still run my Dengaroo so because in my time with the list there were many more timesI wasglad I had a Painbot or 3 speed greens on Manaroo than times I was sad I didn't have a 3rd focus token.

Therefore, at least some versions of Dengaroo have used 40+ points almost exclusively to negate the drawback of Zuckuss.

Even the version you describe is not running manaroo purely because of Zuckuss. It is still mostly about giving Dengar multiple focus tokens so he has one for every attack. Bypassing Zuckuss drawback is just icing on the cake. FWIW I don't really think anything needs to be changed regarding the stress mechanics. I was just proposing a minor change if they felt they HAD to. Beating Dengaroo is really not that hard if you just block Dengars white Sloop. It still comes down to the skills of both pilots and that is what should decide a high level game.

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I am not in favor of a change to the core rules concerning stress.

 

FFG is doing a good job of curbing over-stress with BMST, and I'm sure they'll have more they can do in the future.

 

In my opinion, BMST should'a been ships that have "2 stress or more."

 

 

If you are going to change BMST then I think I'd rather see BMST allowing you to throw up to one red die per stress token. If there are any hits or crit results the target suffers a single damage as they do with the current card. Regardless of the results, the target clears one stress for each die that the BMST user chose to roll. 

It makes BMST almost guaranteed damage against something like Dengaroo, strengthens it in squads with weaponized stress, and weakens it a bit against ships are getting stress from K-Turning or use PTLing. A BMST swarm has to decide whether they want a higher chance to do damage or a higher maximum damage when facing a stress stacker.

Yeah, it kind of sucks for Tycho but Tycho doesn't have to stack stress. There are plenty of other pilot abilities and EPTs that become almost useless against the certain squads so I don't see any reason to that Tycho's ability should be sacrosanct. 

 

"If you are going to change BMST then I think I'd rather see BMST allowing you to throw up to one red die per stress token."

 

I actually thought something similar when I first heard of this card. OK, follow me here, I'll try to be logical:

If there was some multi-directional, super-powerful emitter of damage to stressed ships which the designers deemed "slicers" which is an awesome name as well as power, very descriptive. Now this powerful thing should go off like an electical (or some other non-massed force) and would drain the ship using it and effect everything in it's range (as we know it's not directional due to it not having firing arc restrictions). So I think it should have worked like this:

 

Black Market Slicer

 

Cost 2 points

 

To use the Slicer, discard this card, then:

Ships within range 2, roll (1) red dice for each stress token and take damage for each (crit) and (hit), then remove all stress tokens.

 

This would obviously include all ships, including the parent ship and friendlies. This seems far more logical than the current card...to me...the non-designer.

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And to all those saying manaroo is the problem not zuckuss you have clearly never had zuckuss reroll your 3evades into 3 blanks. If Dengar is stressed so much he cant turn right anymore its now insanely easy to completely dodge him and dive for manaroo. Zuckuss is powerful without manaroo, she just enables him to still get mods.

Also prevents him from using the same focus for every defense and every attack via overclocked. He doesnt have unhinged, meaning NONE of his right turns are an option after 3 stress. Any idea how massive that is?

 

*Bold added.* And that's why Manaroo is the problem, where she can give full mods while completely out of the fight and nigh-untouchable because it's difficult to catch her.

 

For example, in the final, after doing that barrel roll, he would have done 0 damage even with Zuckuss' help without Manaroo's focus token. If anything, Manaroo + Overclocked R4 is the the problem, because it gives Dengaroo glitterstim effects.

 

And in the Party Bus, Zuckuss only really works because of Dengar for dice modification and 4LOM. There's a lot of times when Zuckuss would have done little if not for Dengar and/or 4LOM. I would know, as I fly Bossk and Tel a lot.

Except that she's also generally 40 points for a ship that generally does nothing in combat. For all intents and purposes, she's there to be an upgrade to Dengar who occasionally sees combat herself.

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It's not stress; it's the fact that Manaroo's ability is limited by range/or arc.  If you had to either be in R3 of the ship you wanted to pass tokens OR it had to be in your arc, it wouldn't be as powerful.

 

As it stands, being able to skirt the battlefield handing out tokens galore to Dengar who runs interference and will likely get to shoot twice each round; that's when it becomes too powerful.

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