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John Constantine

The Long Arm of Mordor (SPOILERS)

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Agree. Still waiting for some Orc allies. Like this guy. 

 

ratbagtrailer1-1.jpg

I personally find this trickier. I think many people would consider Orcs as "biological machines" programmed to evil. They don't have free will in the matter. Thus you can't really have them as allies.

 

 

There's a lot of back-and-forth about the nature of Orcs, and I seem to recall hearing that even Tolkien wasn't entirely satisfied with them (If they're simply biological machines, does that mean Evil can create rather than merely twist?  If they're actually twisted elves, does that mean there's a possibility of redemption, and how does that fit with nobody having any qualms about slaughtering Orcs wherever they encounter them?).  Ultimately, though, I agree that an orcish ally would probably not be a great idea (unless it were a captive Objective-ally, or something).

 

As for Haradrim, I would like to make three points:

1.  Even in the books, when Sam encounters the dead Haradrim, we get the passage of Sam wondering just how evil the guy really was and whether he wouldn't have preferred to stay at home in peace.  Southrons are clearly enemies, but they're not meant to be wholly unsympathetic.

 

2.  The armies of Haradrim encountered in the books are invading armies in Gondor, whereas this LCG cycle will take place in their own lands.  We would expect that any dissenting factions would likely be found in their homeland, not in the lands being invaded.

 

3.  This cycle takes place in a time period before the books.  War has not yet broken on the scale we'll eventually see it, so dissenting factions are more likely to still be around in decent numbers.  By the time we first encounter Haradrim in Ithilien, most opposition to Sauron's rule may have been silenced, but at this point it's still entirely feasible that some resist.

 

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Agree. Still waiting for some Orc allies. Like this guy. 

 

ratbagtrailer1-1.jpg

I personally find this trickier. I think many people would consider Orcs as "biological machines" programmed to evil. They don't have free will in the matter. Thus you can't really have them as allies.

 

 

There's a lot of back-and-forth about the nature of Orcs, and I seem to recall hearing that even Tolkien wasn't entirely satisfied with them (If they're simply biological machines, does that mean Evil can create rather than merely twist?  If they're actually twisted elves, does that mean there's a possibility of redemption, and how does that fit with nobody having any qualms about slaughtering Orcs wherever they encounter them?).  Ultimately, though, I agree that an orcish ally would probably not be a great idea (unless it were a captive Objective-ally, or something).

 

As for Haradrim, I would like to make three points:

1.  Even in the books, when Sam encounters the dead Haradrim, we get the passage of Sam wondering just how evil the guy really was and whether he wouldn't have preferred to stay at home in peace.  Southrons are clearly enemies, but they're not meant to be wholly unsympathetic.

 

2.  The armies of Haradrim encountered in the books are invading armies in Gondor, whereas this LCG cycle will take place in their own lands.  We would expect that any dissenting factions would likely be found in their homeland, not in the lands being invaded.

 

3.  This cycle takes place in a time period before the books.  War has not yet broken on the scale we'll eventually see it, so dissenting factions are more likely to still be around in decent numbers.  By the time we first encounter Haradrim in Ithilien, most opposition to Sauron's rule may have been silenced, but at this point it's still entirely feasible that some resist.

 

 

Totally agree with everything here. It's not helped by the fact that Tolkien kept on changing his mind, but as written Orcs (and Uruk Hai for that matter) are evil and can't be redeemed. I get John C's point about breaking programming (and enjoyed the humour), but there's no sign anywhere that Orc can do, or have done, this. Changing that goes against what's on the written page. In my opinion anyway! 

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Agree. Still waiting for some Orc allies. Like this guy. 

 

ratbagtrailer1-1.jpg

I personally find this trickier. I think many people would consider Orcs as "biological machines" programmed to evil. They don't have free will in the matter. Thus you can't really have them as allies.

 

There's a lot of back-and-forth about the nature of Orcs, and I seem to recall hearing that even Tolkien wasn't entirely satisfied with them (If they're simply biological machines, does that mean Evil can create rather than merely twist?  If they're actually twisted elves, does that mean there's a possibility of redemption, and how does that fit with nobody having any qualms about slaughtering Orcs wherever they encounter them?).  Ultimately, though, I agree that an orcish ally would probably not be a great idea (unless it were a captive Objective-ally, or something).

 

As for Haradrim, I would like to make three points:

1.  Even in the books, when Sam encounters the dead Haradrim, we get the passage of Sam wondering just how evil the guy really was and whether he wouldn't have preferred to stay at home in peace.  Southrons are clearly enemies, but they're not meant to be wholly unsympathetic.

 

2.  The armies of Haradrim encountered in the books are invading armies in Gondor, whereas this LCG cycle will take place in their own lands.  We would expect that any dissenting factions would likely be found in their homeland, not in the lands being invaded.

 

3.  This cycle takes place in a time period before the books.  War has not yet broken on the scale we'll eventually see it, so dissenting factions are more likely to still be around in decent numbers.  By the time we first encounter Haradrim in Ithilien, most opposition to Sauron's rule may have been silenced, but at this point it's still entirely feasible that some resist.

Totally agree with everything here. It's not helped by the fact that Tolkien kept on changing his mind, but as written Orcs (and Uruk Hai for that matter) are evil and can't be redeemed. I get John C's point about breaking programming (and enjoyed the humour), but there's no sign anywhere that Orc can do, or have done, this. Changing that goes against what's on the written page. In my opinion anyway!

But the Uruk-Hài follows Saruman, and if he used them for good? They seem to like beheading Mordor/OotMM orcs.

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Among my fantasies of alternate LotR realities there sits one where Saruman did not fell completely to darkness, but opted to create Uruk-Hai to use them against Sauron. However, in that "vision" ents rebelled against Saruman's desolation of their forest, resulting in assault of Ents and Huorns on Isengard, where ents were the antagonists, and Saruman was assisted by both Rohan and the Fellowship. A bitter fortune indeed.

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Agree. Still waiting for some Orc allies. Like this guy. 

 

ratbagtrailer1-1.jpg

I personally find this trickier. I think many people would consider Orcs as "biological machines" programmed to evil. They don't have free will in the matter. Thus you can't really have them as allies.
 

There's a lot of back-and-forth about the nature of Orcs, and I seem to recall hearing that even Tolkien wasn't entirely satisfied with them (If they're simply biological machines, does that mean Evil can create rather than merely twist?  If they're actually twisted elves, does that mean there's a possibility of redemption, and how does that fit with nobody having any qualms about slaughtering Orcs wherever they encounter them?).  Ultimately, though, I agree that an orcish ally would probably not be a great idea (unless it were a captive Objective-ally, or something).

 

As for Haradrim, I would like to make three points:

1.  Even in the books, when Sam encounters the dead Haradrim, we get the passage of Sam wondering just how evil the guy really was and whether he wouldn't have preferred to stay at home in peace.  Southrons are clearly enemies, but they're not meant to be wholly unsympathetic.

 

2.  The armies of Haradrim encountered in the books are invading armies in Gondor, whereas this LCG cycle will take place in their own lands.  We would expect that any dissenting factions would likely be found in their homeland, not in the lands being invaded.

 

3.  This cycle takes place in a time period before the books.  War has not yet broken on the scale we'll eventually see it, so dissenting factions are more likely to still be around in decent numbers.  By the time we first encounter Haradrim in Ithilien, most opposition to Sauron's rule may have been silenced, but at this point it's still entirely feasible that some resist.

Totally agree with everything here. It's not helped by the fact that Tolkien kept on changing his mind, but as written Orcs (and Uruk Hai for that matter) are evil and can't be redeemed. I get John C's point about breaking programming (and enjoyed the humour), but there's no sign anywhere that Orc can do, or have done, this. Changing that goes against what's on the written page. In my opinion anyway!
But the Uruk-Hài follows Saruman, and if he used them for good? They seem to like beheading Mordor/OotMM orcs.

 

This comment has warped my fragile little mind! I have visions of Uruk Hai giving piggy backs to Rohirrim children and setting up as healers, teachers and environmental activists in isolated Dunlending communities!

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