APT+XX9 and Fire-Control Team

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

All we already know how the FAQ answer de xx-9+default crits question but a friend asked me about how APT and XX9 would work. He didnn't ask really, he just declared he could deal 3 faceup damage cards.

 

The FAQ didn't say anything about that. As long as I know, the key of the question is if the APT's damage card count as one of the first 2 damage cards or not. Cause I am not a rule guru I usually try to apply the wording literally. It often works fine but English isn't my mother language and sometimes I find problems. The problem I found this time is "by":

 

XX-9: The first 2 damage cards dealt to the defender by this attack are dealt faceup.

 

Default crit: if the defender is dealt at least one damage card by this attack, deal the first damage card faceup.

 

If both said "during" I would have no problem to defend that the APT damage card counts so only 2 cards would dealt faceup. But "by" confuse me a bit cause I am not sure how I must intend it, if as "during" or just "by" in a way that the APT's damage card wouldn't count as part of the attack. I would bet only 2 damage card would dealt faceup, but as I said I don't want to choose becasuse my lack of language understanding.

 

Is the APT's damage card dealt BY this attack or just BY a critical effect we can't consider within of "by this attack"?

[DonKarnage 189]

Ok. So if you attack with APTs does the face up damage count against the total damage dealt?

You roll hit, hit, crit. With APTs, do you deal 2 damage and one face up?

No. You deal 3 damage and 1 face up.

Why would it be different with FCT and xx-9?

[Eryst 162]

The rules state that you can only resolve one critical effect per attack.

 

You would have to choose whether to deal a face up damage card by the APT (this is in addition to any "normal" damage resulting from the attack) or the default critical effect which is the first card of "normal" damage is dealt face up. If you chose the latter, the XX-9 would allow the first two cards of "normal" damage to be dealt face up.

 

Now if you have a fire control team on board you could choose to resolve both the APT critical effect for one additional face up damage card and then the XX-9 effect which would cause the first two damage cards from regular damage to be dealt face up.

[Lemmiwinks86 934]

Is the APT's damage card dealt BY this attack or just BY a critical effect we can't consider within of "by this attack"?

 

In this case the BY is irrelevant.

The short answer is that with APT, FCT and XX-9 you have the possibility to deal 3 face up damage cards.

This is different from FCT, XX-9 and the default critical because the default and XX-9 both refer to the first * damage cards, so you can deal only the first 1 or the first 2 face up. For APT, it gives you a face up damage card regardless of the damage done by the attack.

So the attack would be something like this:

- Roll dice, you roll for example hit, hit, crit, so it woulb be 3 damage

- the defender spends defense tokens, but for the example lets say he doesn't use anything

- now the APT deals one face up damage card to the defender (it doesn't count in the 3 damage rolled), you exhaust FCT to trigger XX-9 too, so you deal the first 2 cards face up and the third one face down

 

So with this attack you were able to deal 3 face up damage cards and 1 face down

Edited November 7, 2016 by Lemmiwinks86

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

 

Is the APT's damage card dealt BY this attack or just BY a critical effect we can't consider within of "by this attack"?

 

In this case the BY is irrelevant.

The short answer is that with APT, FCT and XX-9 you have the possibility to deal 3 face up damage cards.

This is different from FCT, XX-9 and the default critical because the default and XX-9 both refer to the first * damage cards, so you can deal only the first 1 or the first 2 face up. For APT, it gives you a face up damage card regardless of the damage done by the attack.

So the attack would be something like this:

- Roll dice, you roll for example hit, hit, crit, so it woulb be 3 damage

- the defender spends defense tokens, but for the example lets say he doesn't use anything

- now the APT deals one face up damage card to the defender (it doesn't count in the 3 damage rolled), you exhaust FCT to trigger XX-9 too, so you deal the first 2 cards face up and the third one face down

 

So with this attack you were able to deal 3 face up damage cards and 1 face down

 

 Thanks! That is almost what I was looking for. I marked my problem with "by" cause if it would be "during" I wouldn't have doubts. I am not sure yet about why the damage card from APT is not the first damage card dealt by the attack but I will acept your answer as right. Thank you.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

 I am not sure yet about why the damage card from APT is not the first damage card dealt by the attack but I will acept your answer as right. Thank you.

 

Its basically - although not explicitly - because 'damage' is what is dealt point-by-point at the precise moment that it is intended to be dealt. . Which is after a Critical Effect is Done, Dusted, Triggered, etc, etc, etc/

 

Its just a same that 'attack' means two things as well (one of the two salvos you shoot from a ship is an 'attack', but a pass through the attakcing steps is also an 'attack')....

[SoonerTed 376]

It doesn't help that the FAQ overruled the preview article (on XX-9 and FCT), but then failed to address APT & FCT.

[Green Knight 9,746]

It doesn't help that the FAQ overruled the preview article (on XX-9 and FCT), but then failed to address APT & FCT.

 

Not the same thing.

[DonKarnage 189]

It doesn't help that the FAQ overruled the preview article (on XX-9 and FCT), but then failed to address APT & FCT.

Since xx-9 and the default do the same thing, a FAQ was justified to clear up doubt.

No other interactions with FCT have similar problems that need a FAQ.

Both the default effect and xx-9 interact with the first (and second) damage card dealt - and only those cards.

Every other crit effect does something else or adds additional damage that does not interact with those cards at all.

[hellmell 0]

With FCT, do you have to roll 2 crits to resole two critical effects? 

[Green Knight 9,746]

With FCT, do you have to roll 2 crits to resole two critical effects?

No.

The rules are very clear. You only need one crit icon.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

Yes, the rules are "clear" on this one...

 

As I interpreted it:

You need to have One Critical Effect showing to activate your first critical effect.  That must be of the appropriate colour, if it is not an uncoloured or default...

 

The "cost" you pay for the Second Critical effect, is to Exhaust Fire Control Team.  This allows you to resolve a second critical effect.

 

...

 

Wether or not that means you also need to have the colour of that critical showing, or weather Fire control teams is effectively providing all the requirements for the second Critical, I do not know...

 

...

 

 

But Certainly, only need to have 1 Critical Showing to Activate 2 Effects if you are ...  That part is Clear...

 

The rest, yeah, not-so.  

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

Wait... Are you suggesting FCT actually activates a crit in its own right, without need for a critical die roll?

I almost brought this up when the card was first spoiled, but it seems like such a patently outrageous ability for two points that I dismissed it as implausible. This would make FCT basically the poor man's Screed as VG is the poor man's Vader... Except FCT is better than Screed in that you can double crit and don't have to spend a die, and VG is worse than Vader and costs way more.

No way that's the intended function. But if it is... HOLY CRAP

[Ginkapo 9,321]

Wait... Are you suggesting FCT actually activates a crit in its own right, without need for a critical die roll?

I almost brought this up when the card was first spoiled, but it seems like such a patently outrageous ability for two points that I dismissed it as implausible. This would make FCT basically the poor man's Screed as VG is the poor man's Vader... Except FCT is better than Screed in that you can double crit and don't have to spend a die, and VG is worse than Vader and costs way more.

No way that's the intended function. But if it is... HOLY CRAP

"Additional"

So you need the first, in order to resolve a second.

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

Wait... Are you suggesting FCT actually activates a crit in its own right, without need for a critical die roll?

I almost brought this up when the card was first spoiled, but it seems like such a patently outrageous ability for two points that I dismissed it as implausible. This would make FCT basically the poor man's Screed as VG is the poor man's Vader... Except FCT is better than Screed in that you can double crit and don't have to spend a die, and VG is worse than Vader and costs way more.

No way that's the intended function. But if it is... HOLY CRAP

"Additional"

So you need the first, in order to resolve a second.

That's not how it was interpreted for Ozzel.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

 

 

Wait... Are you suggesting FCT actually activates a crit in its own right, without need for a critical die roll?

I almost brought this up when the card was first spoiled, but it seems like such a patently outrageous ability for two points that I dismissed it as implausible. This would make FCT basically the poor man's Screed as VG is the poor man's Vader... Except FCT is better than Screed in that you can double crit and don't have to spend a die, and VG is worse than Vader and costs way more.

No way that's the intended function. But if it is... HOLY CRAP

"Additional"

So you need the first, in order to resolve a second.

That's not how it was interpreted for Ozzel.

 

 

"Additional" is one of those ones, isn't it...  Well, to me, it isn't...  And I'll explain why below

 

 

 

For Ozzel:

You do need the first, in order to have the Second.

 

Ozzel allows you to have the first, but you have utilised it for something else (Nav Team), or electing to not use it, but still having it...

 

So it is additional to 0, but a Zero that was elected to be, something like that...

 

 

 

 

Whereas Additional to not having it in the first place, is something else entirely...

 

This is why I listed it as a potential discussion point.

 

 

I don't believe it will be resolved that way...  But additional is not the word in question here:  It is, once again Resolves.....

 

Does Resolve mean "Go through the Steps", or does Resolve mean "Finish it, bring to Resolution, automatically..."

 

 

-- 

 

Ironically, its closer to the G-8 Explanation and Question than the Ozzel one.

 

 

 

And because of that, I play it like this:

Fire Control Team allows you to go through the steps again in order to select a second Critical Hit...

 

IF your second Critical effect is the same colour (or uncoloured), then you can utilise the same single Critical Facing showing on the dice (as Critical Dice are not spent unless explicitly stated, and no effect we have thus far spends them in that way...)

 

But if you want to activate a Black Critical Effect for your Second, and your First was a Blue Critical Effect, you better have a Black Die showing a Crit as well, or you're going to be Suckin' the Default...

 

 

I mean...  Its 2 Goddamn Points.   It can't be awesome for 2 Points.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Drasnighta

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

Wait... Are you suggesting FCT actually activates a crit in its own right, without need for a critical die roll?

I almost brought this up when the card was first spoiled, but it seems like such a patently outrageous ability for two points that I dismissed it as implausible. This would make FCT basically the poor man's Screed as VG is the poor man's Vader... Except FCT is better than Screed in that you can double crit and don't have to spend a die, and VG is worse than Vader and costs way more.

No way that's the intended function. But if it is... HOLY CRAP

"Additional"

So you need the first, in order to resolve a second.

That's not how it was interpreted for Ozzel.

"Additional" is one of those ones, isn't it... Well, to me, it isn't... And I'll explain why below

For Ozzel:

You do need the first, in order to have the Second.

Ozzel allows you to have the first, but you have utilised it for something else (Nav Team), or electing to not use it, but still having it...

So it is additional to 0, but a Zero that was elected to be, something like that...

Whereas Additional to not having it in the first place, is something else entirely...

This is why I listed it as a potential discussion point.

I don't believe it will be resolved that way... But additional is not the word in question here: It is, once again Resolves.....

Does Resolve mean "Go through the Steps", or does Resolve mean "Finish it, bring to Resolution, automatically..."

--

Ironically, its closer to the G-8 Explanation and Question than the Ozzel one.

And because of that, I play it like this:

Fire Control Team allows you to go through the steps again in order to select a second Critical Hit...

IF your second Critical effect is the same colour (or uncoloured), then you can utilise the same single Critical Facing showing on the dice (as Critical Dice are not spent unless explicitly stated, and no effect we have thus far spends them in that way...)

But if you want to activate a Black Critical Effect for your Second, and your First was a Blue Critical Effect, you better have a Black Die showing a Crit as well, or you're going to be Suckin' the Default...

I mean... Its 2 Goddamn Points. It can't be awesome for 2 Points.

I agree entirely with your conclusion. Which is why I didn't bring it up in the first place.

On the "additional" point, I do disagree, but it's a pretty academic point since Ozzel/Nav Team was specifically FAQ'd, so not with even worth discussing until and unless it crops up again...

Edited November 15, 2016 by Ardaedhel

[Drasnighta 26,832]

Yeah, but if I don't, then I get accused of misleading people through not telling the whole side of the story...

 

 

 

So yeah, win-win for me.  yay...

Edited November 15, 2016 by Drasnighta

[Green Knight 9,746]

Sigh.

[Geodes 111]

Please forgive the Necro, but I have constantly been pained by understanding this point.

Let's say we have FCT+ XX-9 + APT

Say we get two black crits against no shields. Do we resolve the black crit, showing a face-up damage. Then we exhaust FCT to utilize the second black crit for XX-9s to show three face up damage total from this volley?

This would be really solid to know. 

Thanks!

[DiabloAzul 2,636]

Two cards faceup.

The APT card counts as the first damage card dealt "by this attack".  The next card dealt will also be faceup. But that's it.

EDIT: Also, a single black crit die is enough to resolve both crit effects. FCT does not require a second one.

Edited July 27, 2017 by DiabloAzul

[Geodes 111]

On 11/7/2016 at 3:59 PM, DonKarnage said:

Since xx-9 and the default do the same thing, a FAQ was justified to clear up doubt.

No other interactions with FCT have similar problems that need a FAQ.

Both the default effect and xx-9 interact with the first (and second) damage card dealt - and only those cards.

Every other crit effect does something else or adds additional damage that does not interact with those cards at all.

 

3 hours ago, DiabloAzul said:

Two cards faceup.

The APT card counts as the first damage card dealt "by this attack".  The next card dealt will also be faceup. But that's it.

EDIT: Also, a single black crit die is enough to resolve both crit effects. FCT does not require a second one.

I was going off this info in particular is why I ask, since FCT allows the first two damage cards dealt face up and APT deals a face up damage card, the APT card is separate from the attack damage. Is this incorrect?

Edited July 27, 2017 by Geodes
Added word for clarity

[Green Knight 9,746]

8 minutes ago, Geodes said:

 

I was going off this info in particular is why I ask, since FCT allows the first two damage cards dealt face up and APT deals a face up damage card, the APT card is separate from the attack damage. Is this incorrect?

Yes, it is incorrect.

@DiabloAzul has it right.

I was quite puzzled by this ruling myself, but FFG probably thinks this combination is too strong?

[Geodes 111]

4 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Yes, it is incorrect.

@DiabloAzul has it right.

I was quite puzzled by this ruling myself, but FFG probably thinks this combination is too strong?

Thank you both.

It would indeed be powerful to allow three chosen face up cards with Dodonna. That is a situation no large ship wants to undergo. Imagine drawing projectors misaligned first and then allowing the rest of your damage to waltz through with a few extra choice crit cards.

[Green Knight 9,746]

1 hour ago, Geodes said:

Thank you both.

It would indeed be powerful to allow three chosen face up cards with Dodonna. That is a situation no large ship wants to undergo. Imagine drawing projectors misaligned first and then allowing the rest of your damage to waltz through with a few extra choice crit cards.

Damage Control Officer FTW!