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Jadotch

State of the meta?

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TBH from what I can see of Worlds, it's not really x7s at all, the most prevalent lists seem to be 3 scum with mindlink, but there seems to be a lot of variety in what those 3 ships are.

 

absolutely.  this has been massive in the UK and parts of Europe for a while, and i think it's mainly those guys taking it over there.

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IMO the current meta is about answering 2 simple questions:

Does my list contain any x7 Defenders?

Does my list have a answer to x7 Defenders?

If the answer to both is 'no', then it probably not going to be a very competitive list, regardless of how well it performs against everything else.

 

You could say that about any ship likely to appear at a top table.

It only becomes a problem when there are very few answers to that ship.

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The meta discussion needs to wait. Worlds is in extremely odd position in that the FAQ is legal, but Heroes of the resistance isn't yet. The World's meta is different than two weeks ago and it will be different by the regionals that start next weekend.

Edited by AEIllingworth

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The meta discussion needs to wait. Worlds is in extremely odd position in that the FAQ is legal, but Heroes of the resistance isn't yet. The World's meta is different than two weeks ago and it will be different by the regionals that start next weekend.

This.

 

At least wait until Sunday night to see how World's plays out.

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IMO the current meta is about answering 2 simple questions:

Does my list contain any x7 Defenders?

Does my list have a answer to x7 Defenders?

If the answer to both is 'no', then it probably not going to be a very competitive list, regardless of how well it performs against everything else.

 

Yes, but what x7 don't do is invalidate huge chunks of otherwise solid ships all on their own. ARCs, PWT (usually with boost, but Rey is surprisingly obnoxious what with also having infinite sloops plus rerolled defense dice), TLTs (! I was not expecting a TLT performance as strong as the one we saw), twin Casters, Fangaroo, Bossk/Dengar alpha strikes, Pattern Analyzer Poe, etc etc. There are a lot of potential answers to x7, and that variety is cross-faction. Yeah, you need to beat x7. You can do it with Scythes, for Christ's sake. 

 

The Scout nerf was the best thing that happened to the game since the T-70 and F/O expansions dropped and the meta is at least as good as it's ever been. 

 

Although I remain concerned about Kylo, because good lord.

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IMO the current meta is about answering 2 simple questions:

Does my list contain any x7 Defenders?

Does my list have a answer to x7 Defenders?

If the answer to both is 'no', then it probably not going to be a very competitive list, regardless of how well it performs against everything else.

You could say that about any ship likely to appear at a top table.

It only becomes a problem when there are very few answers to that ship.

Isn't this kinda the case right now though ? How many things are there about which you can say 'this is very good against Defenders'?

Personally I think Defenders are THE list to beat in the foreseeable future, they just shape the meta in a more subtle way because ther's nothing really obnoxious about them the masses can complain about (like it was for torp scouts, acewing, PWTs and whatever people complained about before PWTs). Defenders still play standard X-wing (move, get 1 action, shoot once in arc), they're just really good at it.

Edited by LordBlades

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However in this new meta I think they won't be nearly as succesful. Collateral damage here is that a lot of those denial or control tools are also very lethal against traditional Imp Aces, which will see probably much less play.

 

This is something I have heard several times and I think it's entirely wrong: control will reign in the Defenders.

IMO Dwfenders are among the most control resistant ships out there. They don't care all that much about stress since they don't do reds often and they stll get the Evade while stressed and Ion/Tractor Beam needs to hit through 3 grens, 1 Evade and possibly Focus and Palpatine, and you're usually trading offense to employ either.

With the exception of swarms, I think any control that hurts defenders hurts all other lists even more.

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Large ships are much more resistant to control than Defenders. Which might be the reason why there is so much large Scum ships in Worlds currently.

But yes, other small, high agility ships are more vulnerable then Defenders (hence the collateral damage on Imp aces).

Also while somewhat OK against control, the Defenders absolutely hate to see denial mechanics - stripping or preventing to use evade or focus tokens, such as Carnor, Old Teroch, Party Buss, Omega Leader, Homing Missiles, etc. And these cards are seeing a ton of play currently.

Also, there are bombs, which Defenders also really don't like to see..

Rebel and Scum small ships will be just as much collateral damage and I doubt anything hates denial any less, hence my argument. Anything that hurts Defenders hurts many other lists even more Edited by LordBlades

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Rebel and Scum small ships will be just as much collateral damage and I doubt anything wlse hates denial any less, hence my argument. Anything that hurts Defenders hurts many other lists even more

 

Maybe you should go look at the Worlds results thread. Sure, at 6-0 the only small ships are Carnor and Defenders. But that's a sample size of three. Drop down to 5-1 and you see no Defenders (but you do see a Tansarii Point Veteran). Drop down to 4-2 and Defenders come back, but do not dominate.

 

Your priors are incompatible with observable reality and should be discarded. 

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Your priors are incompatible with observable reality and should be discarded.

After day 2, 4 out of 6 of the 6-0s are running at least 1 defender (and the remaining 2 make heavy use of large ships) and on a quick count about 1/3 of the 4-2 or better with posted lists have at least 1 Defender too. How's that for observable reality ?

Edited by LordBlades

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The meta discussion needs to wait. Worlds is in extremely odd position in that the FAQ is legal, but Heroes of the resistance isn't yet. The World's meta is different than two weeks ago and it will be different by the regionals that start next weekend.

Indeed, and it's an absolute bummer for Rebels because 59 points Rey+ace would most certainly have changed their non-showing at this worlds.

I was really surprised that we don't see any Norra Wexley at worlds, like... none at all. It's probably Scum Partybus and Attani lists that shut her out most, because she is vulnerable to alpha-strikes. The Defender lists generally have lower PA than her and they can be handled even if it's no easy task. But the Scum builds are another Story. Fenn Rau is a big problem for her too

Edited by ForceM

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So as expected the Defenders are played, but they are not "better than everything else" and they are definetely not "unbeatable".

Nobody claims Defenders are unbeatable. Nothing in the entire history of x-wing was.

They're just the dominant archetype atm, IMO at least.

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So as expected the Defenders are played, but they are not "better than everything else" and they are definetely not "unbeatable".

Nobody claims Defenders are unbeatable. Nothing in the entire history of x-wing was.

They're just the dominant archetype atm, IMO at least.

They are the most played. But we'll see if the percentage of their progression through the tournament will be above average. Because only then we cantalk about a dominant list.

Just because everyone plays them and people are sick of seeing them already does not mean they are the most powerful ship!

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I am expecting this trend to continue in the next day, with only a few of Defenders surviving into the top 16.

5/16 lists with defenders which makes them the most numerous ship in the cut, and also the lone 8-0 is running Defenders. Edited by LordBlades

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I was predicting Rebels to win with Corran and/or Miranda. With some different maneuvers in the finals, I would have been right. Seeing 2 Rebel lists in top4 was not surprising to me. Rebels have some of the best Defender counters.

 

Now that top16 worlds results are in, my level of surprise is low actually.

 - Lots of Defenders (5/16)

 - Lots of Palpatine (5/16)

 - Dengaroo (3/16)

 - TLT (3/16)

 - Shadow Casters and Fenn Rau (3/16)

It seemed there was significant consensus that these ships and upgrades would be on the top tables. And they were.

 

The most unexpected lists in top16 are Fat Han + Jake, Whisper + Oicunn Palp, & triple jumps. Only triple jumps surprises me. In hindsight, fat Han is a better version of Dash in this meta & people were saying Dash would do well. Whisper + Palpatine are obviously still good. Nothing like last year when triple K-wing was in top16.

 

On second thought, the lack of stress control is confusing.

Tie swarm is 100% dead until X7 defenders are nerfed.

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