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Budgernaut

Undead off-archetype units

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As I've read these forums — and also from my own experience playtesting the Undead — it seems there are two major archetypes for this faction:

1) Blight army,

2) Minions and Necromancers.

The first one centers around Skeleton Archers, Death Knights, and the Barrow Wyrm. The second archetype uses Necromancers, Skeleton Archers, Reanimates, Bone Horrors, and often Graveyards. Missing from both of these lists are the Barghests, Wraiths, and Banshee.

My question to you is, what do you think of these units that don't fit into one of the two major Undead archetypes? Do you still find them useful? If so, how do you incorporate them into your armies? What is their main role?

Edited by Budgernaut
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Wraiths:  I don't really use them much, but I see them as useful for scenarios where you know your opponent will have a nigh insurmountable defense on VP hex.  It could also be good on the one where you have a faction banner.  Primarily, I see this as being a scenario specific unit.  The lore card that lets you add helm symbols to rolls is really essential on these guys though to make them reliable (sorry I don't recall the name of the card).

 

Banshee: I think this unit is actually part of a minion army involving bone horrors.  She negates the fact that flags can damage them by just supporting.  I know the bone horror ability can also be sorta good in that they don't just run away from hexes, but still I think she can fit into the Minion/Necro army in some cases.

 

Barghests:  I'm open to suggestions on these.  They don't really have one thing that they're awesome at (though I really like their lore card).  I think the main thing would be to use them as flankers.  I suppose that fits them in with blight army better since blight will slow them down to let you flank better or something.... I'm not really sure.  My gut says you use them in blight, but I can't really back that up.  I guess they could be good against daqan players that get lots of archers and maybe even crystal spires since they could close in quickly, but it could be hard to guess your opponents army that well.

 

By the way, I love the topic.

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I think this is hard to discuss, because Waiqar have lots of strong units and also here, a lot depends on the battlefield and Scenario. Also, I don't have the Waiqar expansion for so much time and I just have a general image and less experience then playing Daqan or Uthuk. But let's have some general discussion:

 

Barghests: I like to Play them in Minion armies.  Minion armies have plenty of high damage units (as far as the skeletons aren't damaged to much) but minions are quite slow. So the movement of 4 is hilarious to have some firefighters were you need support or to attack a comand tent somewhere in the nowhere. A movement-skill of 4 is just so flexible... Also, the panic ability is quite nice. I think it's never wrong to chose 1 unit of them, but they aren't neither a must-unit

 

--> do we play it right: when I attack with Barghests, the enemy unit has to (and not may) counter, isn't it? Because we had situations were a weak panicked unit on a VP didn't want to counter (to avoid a Panic-suicide) but we decided it's a must to do...

 

PS: Playing against Barghests, try to fullfill the very first and the very most important rule of the hitchhiker's guide through the galaxis! :ph34r:

 

 

Wraiths: I am not sure about this unit. I don't play it very often, but it almost ever does a good job. Also, it feels strong when I play against it. They occupy at least two enemy units if they are defending a hex. I feel like I have to play more games to decide what to think about them..

 

Banshee: Strong legend, also playable in all kind of armies... as the Dragon, the Banshee is never really wrong

 

Minion vs. blight:

 

First of all I think minion armies may probably be the strongest kind of army in BL2. The amount of cheap 4-attack reanimates and the (feels very OP) minion enabler of the Necromancers is just a powerhouse. But you don't have to play a purifyed army: The dragon is strong in minion-armies and Necromancers stay very strong in armies with Dragon and Death Kniths, as long they are in range of two or three minions etc... A mix of Minion and blight-units isn't weak at all...

 

A question for another thread will be: how to beat Minions? I think you really need early damage against the (nearest) reanimates, because the heal-ability of them does almost never trigger (If they aren't weak, the damage is more important than the heal, if there is no overkill) - and so they lose permanent attack and a lot of theyr menace. I think to weaken the reanimates may be priority before taking out the Necromancers. If Necros move a 2-dice reanimates unit, it isn't a big deal...

 

That may be done occupying your VP on round one with mages, this has the advantage of attacking them with 3 dices after moving. . The problem is, that Greyhaven Mages only cause 1 damage in 50% of it's attack and it is not the unit you want to keep a VP (counter only hits with 6+). Siege Golem seems to be lot stronger against Waiqar then against Uthuk. With Uthuk, Lots of harvesters are a good choice, they are on par to strike hardly back if attacked by skeletons. But I think these theme would be worth a proper thread...

Edited by phalgast
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--> do we play it right: when I attack with Barghests, the enemy unit has to (and not may) counter, isn't it? Because we had situations were a weak panicked unit on a VP didn't want to counter (to avoid a Panic-suicide) but we decided it's a must to do...

 

I see nothing in the rules to indicate that the counter is mandatory. They may choose whether to counter or not. If they do, you might get free damage out of it, but they also may destroy your unit. If they don't, your attacking unit is guaranteed not to take damage. As much as it would be great to force them to attack and deal damage to themselves, the fact that a player may choose not to counter with a panicked unit is a pretty powerful ability result as it is.

Edited by Budgernaut
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They are freaking great.

Banshee&wraiths (preferably, in building/forest) is an EVIL combo.

 

I'd take Banshee whenever I am planning to hold&counterattack.

 

Wraiths are indispensable to capture buildings from a forest.

 

Barghests are the fastest unit available. Besides, I'd always take a pack of them just because of the 'Unleash the Hounds' card - I think this is one of the most underpriced cards in the deck.

 

Besides of that, I've found that Skeleton Archers pair with Necromancers really well. Sometimes you're not planning to attack just yet, or don't have room etc and you need to spend this Herois somewhere.

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@garret

 

Wraiths are indispensable to capture buildings from a forest. You need an important building thats next to a forest. Thats quite situational. and you still have only 33% to get the switch-roll.

 

They are an incredible defensiv-unit overall in forrests. In buildings, they are ok but they retreat also for every single flag (to get an unit out of a building, I try ever to do it with "retreat" and not with dammage. With theyr attack of two, they deal just very few damage.

 

I think reanimates with the huge wood-attack are strictly better in woods then wraiths in most cases. Why? I think there is not 1 scenario with a VP on a wood hex, so your enemy most of the time will not be forced to attack you in the forest. And the switch ability is nice, but with 2 dices you get it only every 3rd attack, nothing so exciting.

 

I don't say they are bad. As I told above they didn't underwhelm in the games I played with and against them. But i'm not sure if they really are a A+-unit (...or freaking great)...

 

Edit: To protect a VP, Wraith's and Banshee is extremely strong, but also very pricy. but if you want to make sure to hold a VP probably for a hole game, it's probaly the best solution of the Waiqar...

Edited by phalgast
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On 4.11.2016 at 7:51 AM, Willange said:

Banshee: I think this unit is actually part of a minion army involving bone horrors.  She negates the fact that flags can damage them by just supporting.  I know the bone horror ability can also be sorta good in that they don't just run away from hexes, but still I think she can fit into the Minion/Necro army in some cases.

Does Banshee really prevent flag damage on Bone Horrors? I though that if they cannot resolve retreat, they cannot be supported as well.

 

On 4.11.2016 at 11:04 PM, SpawnGarret said:

Besides of that, I've found that Skeleton Archers pair with Necromancers really well. Sometimes you're not planning to attack just yet, or don't have room etc and you need to spend this Herois somewhere.

I also like this combination, one unit of archers plus two units of necromancers can really hold the line

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22 minutes ago, Wakomski said:

Does Banshee really prevent flag damage on Bone Horrors? I though that if they cannot resolve retreat, they cannot be supported as well.

 

I also like this combination, one unit of archers plus two units of necromancers can really hold the line

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Not being able to resolve retreats means that you can't actually carry them out. They can, however, be applied against you, so that's why you end up taking them as damage instead of resolving them. Bone horrors can be supported which then which allows you to ignore the retreats rather than resolve them. Since you never get to resolution, you also never get to the point of needing to take damage instead of resolving.

EDIT: Sorry about the split post

Edited by Willange
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