Snap Wexley, Pattern Analyzer, and Substep B!

[Klutz 1,590]

 

It says to move the Check Pilot Stress step.

If that step is moved, it can no longer be part of the same substep. If someone tells you to move something from the living room to the kitchen, is it still in the living room?

 

 

Yes, the couch is an integral part of the living room. Therefore, by definition, the living room extends to wherever the couch is. My kitchen is now part of my living room.

 

What do you have to say about that?    Ha! I out logic-ed you!

[VanorDM 11,599]

My kitchen is now part of my living room.

 

I've lived in apartments where that was true, in fact pretty much every room but the bathroom was part of the living room.

[Slugrage 5,011]

Rules Reference Guide

Page 2

 

GOLDEN RULES

If a rule in this guide contradicts the Learn to Play
booklet, the rule in this guide takes priority.

Card abilities can override the rules listed in this
guide. Mission rules can override both card abilities
and rules from this guide.

If a card ability or mission effect uses the word
“cannot,” that effect is absolute and cannot be
overridden by other effects.

 

Sometimes, rules are meant to be broken. Do what the card says to do. Do not do something if the card doesn't say to do it. Problem solved.

[Slugrage 5,011]

I'm also curious to the question of where the WH40K rules lawyers went... I think we may know.

[VanorDM 11,599]

I do think I know where part of the confusion is, and it's caused by people reading into the rules...
 

Nothing on the card says that an integral part of "Executing a maneuver" is no longer part of "Executing a maneuver"

 
There is nothing that says any part of the process is actually integral or even required, only people reading something in the rules that doesn't actually exist.  In fact no single step is ever integral or required for any process in this game (or really any other game) because all the rules are simply a process to follow, a checklist of sorts to make sure everyone is doing it the same way.
 
But as Slugrage points out, the rules expressly say that upgrade cards trump the rules.

 

But no single step is actually required... If I perform a Stop maneuver with a shuttle, I don't actually move the ship, and I don't have any templates to clean up, so that means the only step that's actually matters is the Check Pilot Stress step.

 

Rolling dice is not inherently required for the Attack process to be carried out either.

 

So anyone who looks at this thinking that the Check Pilot Stress step is required to be part of the Perform a Maneuver step is reading something that isn't there, and that and that alone is why this would be confusing.

[lazycomet 294]

I do think I know where part of the confusion is, and it's caused by people reading into the rules...

 

Nothing on the card says that an integral part of "Executing a maneuver" is no longer part of "Executing a maneuver"

 

There is nothing that says any part of the process is actually integral or even required, only people reading something in the rules that doesn't actually exist.  In fact no single step is ever integral or required for any process in this game (or really any other game) because all the rules are simply a process to follow, a checklist of sorts to make sure everyone is doing it the same way.

 

But as Slugrage points out, the rules expressly say that upgrade cards trump the rules.

 

But no single step is actually required... If I perform a Stop maneuver with a shuttle, I don't actually move the ship, and I don't have any templates to clean up, so that means the only step that's actually matters is the Check Pilot Stress step.

 

Rolling dice is not inherently required for the Attack process to be carried out either.

 

So anyone who looks at this thinking that the Check Pilot Stress step is required to be part of the Perform a Maneuver step is reading something that isn't there, and that and that alone is why this would be confusing.

 

But the Check Pilot Stress is the most critical portion of "executing a maneuver," so I really don't understand how you can lambast any of us for "reading too much into it."

SNAP without PA cannot FREE BOOST after a RED MANEUVER. Fact.

 

SNAP with PA can NORMAL BOOST after a RED MANEUVER. Fact.

SNAP with PA can FREE BOOST after a RED MANEUVER. Fuzzy.

Please condescend more.

[VanorDM 11,599]

But the Check Pilot Stress is the most critical portion of "executing a maneuver,"

Exactly where in the rules does it say that? Please point out where it lists which steps are critical and which ones aren't, or has some list of how important various steps are to a given process.

Because my rulebook doesn't have such a thing, it only lists the steps and assigns no value of importance to any given step, or declares any given step is critical.

Also it's not condescending to point out the flaws in your argument...

Edited November 3, 2016 by VanorDM

[lazycomet 294]

 

But the Check Pilot Stress is the most critical portion of "executing a maneuver,"

Exactly where in the rules does it say that? Please point out where it lists which steps are critical and which ones aren't, or has some list of how important various steps are to a given process.

Because my rulebook doesn't have such a thing, it only lists the steps and assigns no value of importance to any given step, or declares any given step is critical.

 

 

Are you serious? Without PA or some other upgrade, the "check pilot stress" determines if you get to Perform an Action this turn. Actions, the second most important design element of this game. After placing Dials.

 

[VanorDM 11,599]

Are you serious?

I'm quite serious and apparently you can't do it, because as we both know no such thing exists.

 

the "check pilot stress" determines if you get to Perform an Action this turn.

You're right, but that is not inherently tied to the maneuver process, and in the old rules wasn't even part of it, it was a completely separate step.

And that is the whole point of the PA upgrade, it allows yout break the rules by changing how the process works and letting you perform an action even though you will be getting a stress token latter on.

But again, check pilot stress is not inherently tied to the perform a maneuver process, and unless you can point out where in the rules it says it is, you are reading something that isn't actually said.

Edited November 3, 2016 by VanorDM

[Slugrage 5,011]

At this point, I'm forced to conclude that this is an intentional troll thread.

[VanorDM 11,599]

At this point, I'm forced to conclude that this is an intentional troll thread.

I'm not going to go that far, I think that lazycomet just can't get past the fact that he's inserting things into the rules that don't actually exist.

[Slugrage 5,011]

 

At this point, I'm forced to conclude that this is an intentional troll thread.

I'm not going to go that far, I think that lazycomet just can't get past the fact that he's inserting things into the rules that don't actually exist.

 

Yes, there's that, but it's to such a staggering degree that it's pushing the limits (and getting a stress) of reasonable discourse.

[lazycomet 294]

At this point, I'm forced to conclude that this is an intentional troll thread.

 

All you've done in this thread is troll.

[lazycomet 294]

 

Are you serious?

I'm quite serious and apparently you can't do it, because as we both know no such thing exists.

 

the "check pilot stress" determines if you get to Perform an Action this turn.

You're right, but that is not inherently tied to the maneuver process, and in the old rules wasn't even part of it, it was a completely separate step.

And that is the whole point of the PA upgrade, it allows yout break the rules by changing how the process works and letting you perform an action even though you will be getting a stress token latter on.

But again, check pilot stress is not inherently tied to the perform a maneuver process, and unless you can point out where in the rules it says it is, you are reading something that isn't actually said.

 

I see the disconnect. Maybe. You still think I'm talking about Normal Actions as opposed to Free Actions (that actually have requirements to be met (cost) before they're "free").

The "cost" of Snap's Free Boost is Maneuver Execution: substep1. moving a ship; substep2. checking stress; substep3. cleanup

That is the "cost" to Free Boost. Nothing about PA actually changes this. Nothing.

 

[Slugrage 5,011]

[lazycomet 294]

Snap with Vectored Thrusters can FreeBoost after a Red Maneuver. Fact.

Snap with Pattern Analyzer might be able to FreeBoost after a Red Maneuver once the FAQ drops. Fact.

[VanorDM 11,599]

You still think I'm talking about Normal Actions as opposed to Free Actions

There's actually no difference in the rules between free actions and normal actions, other than when they're performed.

 

The "cost" of Snap's Free Boost is Maneuver Execution:

You're wrong here as well. There is no cost only a trigger. Performing a maneuver is the trigger for Snap's free boost, not the cost of it.

Even if it were the cost, that does not mean that the substeps of perform a maneuver are absolutely required for the process to happen. The substeps can be moved around or disregarded completely and the process has still been followed.

So again, unless you can point out where any single part of a process is actually listed as being critical or required you are inserting things into the rules that don't actually exist.

I think I'm about done beating my head against this brick wall.

 

So unless you can find something in the rules, and provide a direct quote to prove that the following chart is not allowed and please note that Check Pilot Stress is not part of the Perform Maneuver step... I'm done.

1. Reveal Dial

2. Execute Maneuver

a. Move Ship

b. Clean up

(Perform after a maneuver triggers here)

3. Perform action

a. Check Pilot Stress

Edited November 3, 2016 by VanorDM

[lazycomet 294]

 

You still think I'm talking about Normal Actions as opposed to Free Actions

There's actually no difference in the rules between free actions and normal actions, other than when they're performed.

 

The "cost" of Snap's Free Boost is Maneuver Execution:

You're wrong here as well. There is no cost only a trigger. Performing a maneuver is the trigger for Snap's free boost, not the cost of it.

Even if it were the cost, that does not mean that the substeps of perform a maneuver are absolutely required for the process to happen. The substeps can be moved around or disregarded completely and the process has still been followed.

So again, unless you can point out where any single part of a process is actually listed as being critical or required you are inserting things into the rules that don't actually exist.

 

 

Well, I present Pattern Analyzer, itself. It doesn't say to SKIP the "check stress" portion. Simply moves it. It must still be resolved. And I still contend that only then have you met Snap's Free Action Trigger.

However, I would like to take the time to thank you for keeping it civil.

[VanorDM 11,599]

It doesn't say to SKIP the "check stress" portion. Simply moves it.

Yep, it gets moved out of the Perform Maneuver step and into a different process, so it is no longer part of the perform maneuver step, which is the trigger for the free bost.

[lazycomet 294]

 

You still think I'm talking about Normal Actions as opposed to Free Actions

There's actually no difference in the rules between free actions and normal actions, other than when they're performed.

 

The "cost" of Snap's Free Boost is Maneuver Execution:

1. Reveal Dial

2. Execute Maneuver

a. Move Ship

b. Clean up

(Perform after a maneuver triggers here)

3. Perform action

a. Check Pilot Stress

 

"When executing a maneuver, you may resolve the "Check Pilot Stress" step after the "Perform Action" step (instead of before that step)."

So I think it should look something more like this, logically (card doesn't say "skip").

1. Reveal Dial

2. Execute Maneuver

> 2a. Move Ship

> 2c. Clean up

3. Perform action

> 2b. Check Pilot Stress

(Perform after a maneuver triggers here)

[VanorDM 11,599]

1. Reveal Dial

2. Execute Maneuver

> 2a. Move Ship

> 2c. Clean up

3. Perform action

> 2b. Check Pilot Stress

(Perform after a maneuver triggers here)

So you agree that the Check Pilot Stress step is not part of the Execute Maneuver step... Then how does something that triggers after performing a maneuver not happen until after the Perform Action step?

 

Note at no point does my chart allow you to skip the Check Pilot Stress step, it simply happens as a substep of Step 3, instead of Step 2.

Your list there completely violates everything in the rules about how and when triggers work.

Edited November 3, 2016 by VanorDM

[lazycomet 294]

 

1. Reveal Dial

2. Execute Maneuver

> 2a. Move Ship

> 2c. Clean up

3. Perform action

> 2b. Check Pilot Stress

(Perform after a maneuver triggers here)

So you agree that the Check Pilot Stress step is not part of the Execute Maneuver step... Then how does something that triggers after performing a maneuver not happen until after the Perform Action step?

Your lists there completely violates everything in the rules about how and when triggers work.

 

Not quite. I'm saying it is still very much integral to establishing Maneuver==1 or else the card would read "Skip 2b."

Edited November 3, 2016 by lazycomet

[lazycomet 294]

 

1. Reveal Dial

2. Execute Maneuver

> 2a. Move Ship

> 2c. Clean up

3. Perform action

> 2b. Check Pilot Stress

(Perform after a maneuver triggers here)

So you agree that the Check Pilot Stress step is not part of the Execute Maneuver step... Then how does something that triggers after performing a maneuver not happen until after the Perform Action step?

 

Note at no point does my chart allow you to skip the Check Pilot Stress step, it simply happens as a substep of Step 3, instead of Step 2.

Your list there completely violates everything in the rules about how and when triggers work.

 

"resolve the ____"

"after the _____"

"instead of _____"

this is NOT the programmatic way to write "skip _____." and you've accused me of reading too much into it. I think you might be guilty of that if you wish to skip 2b entirely with PA.

[Klutz 1,590]

[VanorDM 11,599]

Not quite. I'm saying it is still very much integral to establishing Maneuver==1 or else the card would read "Skip 2b."

 

No single step in the process is integral to the process as a whole.  And again... And for the final time doesn't say skip 2b, it says to move step 2b to after step 3, meaning it is no longer part of the step 2 process.

 

I frankly can not put it any more simply than that, and I'm not going to bother trying.

 

I think you might be guilty of that if you wish to skip 2b entirely with PA.

 

Really?  So you haven't read a single one of my posts where I list Check Pilot Stress as Step 3a?

Edited November 3, 2016 by VanorDM