Snap Wexley, Pattern Analyzer, and Substep B!

[lazycomet 294]

Substep B is "Check Pilot Stress." Which must be met before Snap's ability of Free Boost triggers.

 

If Pattern Analyzer moves the Action Subphase to a point before Snap's ability triggers (Execute Maneuver), does this mean Snap w/ PA cannot "free" boost during PA?

[WWHSD 9,273]

Pattern Analyzer moves "Check Pilot Stress" outside of maneuver execution and after the Perform Action step. 

[lazycomet 294]

Pattern Analyzer moves "Check Pilot Stress" outside of maneuver execution and after the Perform Action step. 

 

But how can it do this? That would be some serious Rule Bending.

[lazycomet 294]

Reading PA twelve times in a row, nothing implies that "Substep B. (check pilot stress)" is no longer a requirement for "After Executing Maneuvers" trigger(s).

[VanorDM 11,599]

But how can it do this?

That's what the card does...

"When executing a maneuver, you may resolve the "Check Pilot Stress" step after the "Perform Action" step (instead of before that step).

 

Reading PA twelve times in a row, nothing implies that "Substep B. (check pilot stress)" is no longer a requirement for "After Executing Maneuvers" trigger(s).

Because the card moves the Check Stress step to a point after the Perform Action step. Any ability that triggers on the After Executing a Maneuver trigger would have to happen before the Perform Action step.

Edited November 1, 2016 by VanorDM

[lazycomet 294]

 

But how can it do this?

That's what the card does...

"When executing a maneuver, you may resolve the "Check Pilot Stress" step after the "Perform Action" step (instead of before that step).

 

 

And where does it say this STEP is no longer required as part of execution?

Edited November 1, 2016 by lazycomet

[VanorDM 11,599]

See my above edit.

And just to make it clear...

The activation Phase consists of the following steps in order.

 

1. Reveal Dial

2. Execute Maneuver

a. Move Ship

b. Check Pilot Stress

c. Clean up

(Perform after a maneuver triggers here)

3. Perform action

 

However what Pattern Analyzer does is take substep b. and moves it to a point after 3, so it would look like..

 

1. Reveal Dial

2. Execute Maneuver

a. Move Ship

c. Clean up

(Perform after a maneuver triggers here)

3. Perform action

b. Check Pilot Stress

Edited November 1, 2016 by VanorDM

[lazycomet 294]

See my above edit.

 

Still not seeing it.

 

"When executing a maneuver, you may resolve the "Check Pilot Stress" step after the "Perform Action" step (instead of before that step).

 

keyphrase: You May Resolve. (this implies that Check Stress is still a requirement for Maneuver Execution Triggers.)

Edited November 1, 2016 by lazycomet

[lazycomet 294]

I would like to use Snap's "After Executing a Maneuver" free boost.

 

a. did you Check Pilot Stress?

b. I don't need to, PA moved it.
c. PA says it must still be resolved regardless of where it was moved to.

[VanorDM 11,599]

c. PA says it must still be resolved regardless of where it was moved to.

 

Yes, but you've already used any After a Maneuver triggers and the Perform Action phase before you get to where the Check Pilot Stress substep is.

 

See post #7 for the steps in order.

[lazycomet 294]

 

c. PA says it must still be resolved regardless of where it was moved to.

 

Yes, but you've already used any After a Maneuver triggers and the Perform Action phase before you get to where the Check Pilot Stress substep is.

 

See post #7 for the steps in order.

 

 

Are you sure? Before PA, you haven't "Executed a Manuever" until Substep B.(check pilot stress) is resolved. PA has the word "resolve" right on it.

[lazycomet 294]

 

c. PA says it must still be resolved regardless of where it was moved to.

 

Yes, but you've already used any After a Maneuver triggers and the Perform Action phase before you get to where the Check Pilot Stress substep is.

 

See post #7 for the steps in order.

 

 

A more logical approach to your Post #7

 

1. Reveal Dial

2. Execute Maneuver

a. Move Ship

*** You May Partake in Pattern Analyzer Cheese ***

b. Check Pilot Stress

c. Clean up

(Perform after a maneuver triggers here)

3. Perform action

 

[VanorDM 11,599]

See post #7 for the steps in order.

Unless I don't get what you're trying to say that completely ignores what the card actually says to do...

Edited November 1, 2016 by VanorDM

[lazycomet 294]

 

See post #7 for the steps in order.

Unless I don't get what you're trying to say that completely ignores what the card actually says to do...

 

 

Lets work it through together then...

 

1. Does PA say to [Resolve] "check pilot stress" after "perform action" instead of before?

2. Is "check pilot stress" [Resolution] a critical part of establishing the execution of any maneuver?

3. Does PA change anything about question #2?

Edited November 1, 2016 by lazycomet

[Vineheart01 6,403]

if you move a substep out of a group, its no longer part of that group thus no longer required to satisfy that group.

Nothing can be tied to two groups at the same time. if you move the substep for checking stress to after perform action, it can no longer be a requirement for finishing a maneuver because its no longer in the maneuver group of steps.

[VanorDM 11,599]

I can't tell if I just don't get the question or lazycomet, can't or won't understand the answer. Either way maybe someone else can explain either question or the answer...

[lazycomet 294]

if you move a substep out of a group, its no longer part of that group thus no longer required to satisfy that group.

Nothing can be tied to two groups at the same time. if you move the substep for checking stress to after perform action, it can no longer be a requirement for finishing a maneuver because its no longer in the maneuver group of steps.

 

the problem with this logic is that our entire debate is nested within "Maneuver Execution," as per PA's text.

 

"When executing a maneuver..."

this implies that Stress Resolution is STILL in the group. Not removed.

Edited November 1, 2016 by lazycomet

[lazycomet 294]

I can't tell if I just don't get the question or lazycomet, can't or won't understand the answer. Either way maybe someone else can explain either question or the answer...

 

"When executing a maneuver," implies that Stress Resolution is still inGroup regardless.

[VanorDM 11,599]

"When executing a maneuver," implies that Stress Resolution is still inGroup regardless.

Then you're simply ignoring what the PA card does. An upgrade trumps the standard rules, and if it says to move that step then it does exactly what it says.

 

Your whole argument is based on the idea that the card doesn't actually do anything... 

[lazycomet 294]

 

"When executing a maneuver," implies that Stress Resolution is still inGroup regardless.

Then you're simply ignoring what the PA card does. An upgrade trumps the standard rules, and if it says to move that step then it does exactly what it says.

 

Your whole argument is based on the idea that the card doesn't actually do anything... 

 

 

Far from it. My whole argument is that IF Snap Wexley decides to Boost using PA, it might not be as FREE as we wish it to be... per the fuzziness of the card text.

[Vineheart01 6,403]

Note that is says "When executING a maneuver" indicating when you are currently in the process of it, as you now have a window to interrupt the normal flow. It does not imply the check pilot stress is still there.

 

When you are executING a maneuver you have not FINISHED a maneuver, you are currently doing it. Meaning you have started the first substep, i.e. move ship, you are offered an opportunity to change the normal process and be finished with your maneuver now.

You opt for this, and the Execute Maneuver is now finished. Move on to Action step with its new Check Pilot Stress substep.

 

If you have any idea of how computer logic works, you will know its really, really easy to have the same exact command enter a group of commands and interrupt at one point sometimes and othertimes not. Logical flow. Nothing can be in the same place two times, and you are acting like it is.

Upgrade cards in any game (or gear/whatever) break the normal rule flow like crazy. In some cases it bends it backwards and makes it lick its own butthole because its so whacked up, and people accept it anyway because thats how it works despite the original rule being there.

[lazycomet 294]

Note that is says "When executING a maneuver" indicating when you are currently in the process of it, as you now have a window to interrupt the normal flow. It does not imply the check pilot stress is still there.

 

When you are executING a maneuver you have not FINISHED a maneuver, you are currently doing it. Meaning you have started the first substep, i.e. move ship, you are offered an opportunity to change the normal process and be finished with your maneuver now.

You opt for this, and the Execute Maneuver is now finished. Move on to Action step with its new Check Pilot Stress substep.

 

If you have any idea of how computer logic works, you will know its really, really easy to have the same exact command enter a group of commands and interrupt at one point sometimes and othertimes not. Logical flow. Nothing can be in the same place two times, and you are acting like it is.

Upgrade cards in any game (or gear/whatever) break the normal rule flow like crazy. In some cases it bends it backwards and makes it lick its own butthole because its so whacked up, and people accept it anyway because thats how it works despite the original rule being there.

 

Im not swayed. FFG will need to FAQ this. You haven't executed a maneuver until "check pilot stress." Pattern Analyzer gives me zero indication that this RULE has changed.

[DeathstarII 1,164]

Note that is says "When executING a maneuver" indicating when you are currently in the process of it, as you now have a window to interrupt the normal flow. It does not imply the check pilot stress is still there.

 

When you are executING a maneuver you have not FINISHED a maneuver, you are currently doing it. Meaning you have started the first substep, i.e. move ship, you are offered an opportunity to change the normal process and be finished with your maneuver now.

You opt for this, and the Execute Maneuver is now finished. Move on to Action step with its new Check Pilot Stress substep.

 

If you have any idea of how computer logic works, you will know its really, really easy to have the same exact command enter a group of commands and interrupt at one point sometimes and othertimes not. Logical flow. Nothing can be in the same place two times, and you are acting like it is.

Upgrade cards in any game (or gear/whatever) break the normal rule flow like crazy. In some cases it bends it backwards and makes it lick its own butthole because its so whacked up, and people accept it anyway because thats how it works despite the original rule being there.

 

Im not swayed. FFG will need to FAQ this. You haven't executed a maneuver until "check pilot stress." Pattern Analyzer gives me zero indication that this RULE has changed.

Why would there be a need for faq?

---for red maneuvers--

1. You do your maneuver

2. You do your action

3. You receive your stress token if you did a red maneuver

--green maneuvers--

1. Do maneuver

2. Remove stress as normal

3. Do action

[Vineheart01 6,403]

Keyword: executed a maneuver. Pattern Analyzers removes the Check Pilot Stress Substep for all purposes of satisfying the master group "Execute Maneuver" since now it is no longer in there.

 

Under normal circumstances, yes you are right, you have not executed a maneuver until you check pilot stress. ANY card that crashes with the rules, breaks the rules to allow the card to work. If what you are saying is true, then Perform Action is now a part of Execute Maneuver, which will cause a whole heap of issues and confusions.

Check Pilot Stress is no longer a part of the flow chart for Executing a Maneuver. So, it is now satisfied the moment you move your ship as per the shields that WERENT moved with the upgrade card that procs DURING the maneuver.

 

The rule DID change for the purposes of this card. And its not the only one to do this.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Vineheart01

[lazycomet 294]

Here are the two ways to play this out until FAQ:

 

1. SNAP plots a 2, 3, or 4 Dial

2. SNAP moves

3. SNAP elects to PA before checking stress

4. SNAP takes FOCUS as a PA action

5. SNAP checks stress

6. SNAP may free boost IF not stressed.

 

1. SNAP plots a 2, 3, or 4 Dial

2. SNAP moves

3. SNAP elects to PA before checking stress

4. SNAP takes Free Boost as a fuzzy trigger

5. SNAP takes FOCUS as PA action
5. SNAP checks stress


 

Edited November 1, 2016 by lazycomet