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Sadgit

The Community Rules Reference Guide (CRRG) Project

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Answers to your questions:

 

Overlord turn:

It's at the bottom of page 2, left column of the current FAQ pdf.

 

Threat tokens after quest:

The OL receives 1 TT when he lost and 2 TT if he won the quest.

 

Shopping step in campaign phase:

It's at the top of page 1, right column of the current FAQ pdf.

 

I very much like the idea of having a document that shows important information in a sequence which it most likely becomes relevant in the course of a campaign. When I started the reference guide project, I have been discussing different formats with Zaltyre. A format like yours was also discussed. However, as my goal is to create a comprehensive rules document for all aspects the game, I felt it would become very difficult to integrate the wealth of information using a sequential structure and keeping it well organized and tidy. At the moment, topics like Setup, Turn, Campaign phase etc. can be found in the alphabethical glossary part of my guide and a little bit of turning pages is necessary when questions come up during a game session.    

 

Sigh ... I am seriously getting old.

 

Thank you for providing me the references.  It wasn't that I didn't believe you, it was the fact that I was dumbfounded that I couldn't find them myself.  :P

 

 

Glad I could help. Playing games with your dedication and enthusiasm for the next 30 years (when I will be roughly your age) is more than I can hope for.

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Recently, the first complete version of my reference guide went into proofreading.

Any2cards, Zaltyre and Atom4geVampire are doing amazing work with finding things that are still missing and all the bits and pieces that need to be reworked, rephrased and polished. We are almost there!  

Edited by Sadgit

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So of course since you are almost done I'll throw out a question that would likely make for more work...

 

How easy do you think it will be to slice out all Overlord elements of the guide? My thinking is if I wanted a printout of your comprehensive guide as my rulebook, but only play using RtL, anything making the book larger that is Overlord specific I would want to drop before printing.

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It would be feasible to remove the RtL specific stuff (which is presented in separate boxes). I guess, including correcting the layout that would take "only" a couple of hours. The other way around is actually not feasible as the human overlord part is interwoven with the rest of the rules. The other problem is updating the different versions in the future which would not be feasible. 

 

Currently I am planning to release three versions:

One interactive pdf to be used as an electronic version.

One version for professional printing, which will includes "bleed" borders to get rid of the white borders around the pages.

One version for printing at home, that does not contain background images.

   

Sorry, most likely I won't do a RtL-only version.

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It would be feasible to remove the RtL specific stuff (which is presented in separate boxes). I guess, including correcting the layout that would take "only" a couple of hours. The other way around is actually not feasible as the human overlord part is interwoven with the rest of the rules. The other problem is updating the different versions in the future which would not be feasible. 

 

Currently I am planning to release three versions:

One interactive pdf to be used as an electronic version.

One version for professional printing, which will includes "bleed" borders to get rid of the white borders around the pages.

One version for printing at home, that does not contain background images.

   

Sorry, most likely I won't do a RtL-only version.

 

Thanks for the quick response. It's easy enough to ignore the Overlord parts, I was just curious really how many pages it would save in printing if it was all removed.

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In the current form the guide has around 80 pages. Removing all the stuff that is not needed for RtL I estimate that it would be around 50-60 pages.

 

Can't wait to see it  :)

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Another question on the Hexer's Plague Cloud. I really thought that I got that right in the CRRG, but I am no longer sure after this came up in a current pbf that I am playing with Atom and others.

The question is if newly hexed monsters need to be in LOS to become targets or not.

Is it 2A) or 2B)?

Plague Cloud sequence

1) All hexed monsters in line of sight are targeted.

2) A) Monsters adjacent to targets are hexed (if not already hexed) and targeted.
    B) Monsters adjacent to targets are hexed (if not already hexed) but not automatically targeted.

3) Repeat step 1&2 until no new monsters to be hexed are available.

4) Roll dice and resolve attack.

Here is the uFAQ to that. I assume it is 2A) but answers 1 and 4 seem to be in conflict or at least not very clear from my point of view.

Edited by Sadgit

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Newly hexed monsters that are not in LOS will not be targeted. I am just about certain of this because Plague Cloud specifically says it is an attack targeting hexed monsters in LOS (as opposed to all hexed monsters). Justin's first reply in that thread sounds like it assumes the newly hexed monster is in LOS (and that is why it becomes a target). The fourth reply seems (to me) to clarify that new targets only arise from newly hexed monsters in LOS.

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1 hour ago, Zaltyre said:

Newly hexed monsters that are not in LOS will not be targeted. I am just about certain of this because Plague Cloud specifically says it is an attack targeting hexed monsters in LOS (as opposed to all hexed monsters). Justin's first reply in that thread sounds like it assumes the newly hexed monster is in LOS (and that is why it becomes a target). The fourth reply seems (to me) to clarify that new targets only arise from newly hexed monsters in LOS.

I agree with this.  At least, to be fair, I agree because this is how we have always interpreted and played this card. :P

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I just received another batch of uFAQ from Seregavernik at BGG (many thanks, btw!). I have some questions and I would like to discuss implications of some of the answers below.

 

Quote

 

1.2.2. How does Overseer surge ability of plot card "Cabal" work with multiple targets of an attack? Does it stack for each target?

The attack would deal +1 Heart for each other monster in the attacker’s group within 3 spaces of the target, so yes, if there were multiple targets this effect would stack per each target.

 

 

Card text: Surge Overseer: This monster deals +1 Heart for each other monster in its group within 3 spaces of the target (to a maximum of +4 Heart). 

Question: That means that other monsters within 3 spaces from all targets increase the damage (up to +4), right?

Quote

 

1.3.2. Plot card "Jealous Rage" allows to perform an attack targeting a hero who declares a search action, but if it is Merriod master can he declare a second target of his attack via Flail ability?

Yes, a merriod may declare a second target if able while attacking from Jealous Rage.

 

 

Can the monster perform an Monster action that includes an attack (e.g. Arachyura's Pincer Attack, Elemental's Fire)?

 

Quote

 

2.12. When a hero performs a Ranged attack targeting a monster adjacent to Skye (from "Bonds of the Wild") he gains +2 Range for his attack, but if Vyrah decides to discard Skye to give +1 damage for that attack does +2 Range bonus still apply to it (there is no Skye adjacent to monster anymore)?

No, Roll Dice is step 2 of combat and Check Range is step 3, so Skye is discard after dice are rolled (just after step 2) and so the bonus range she would add could not be counted when proceeding to step 3 Check Range (because, as you pointed out, she is no longer adjacent to a monster).

 

This is surprising for me. I was assuming that the range was added to in step 1 or step 2 of the attack and can be combined with the additional damage. Comments?


 

Quote

 

3.2. In Shadow of Nerekhall campaign there are some quests where there is a character treated as a hero figure with no description of what actions are available to him (like loyal Leader in Civil War, encounter 2). We didn't find any definition of such a term "treated as a hero figure", the only thing we found was a question/answer in FAQ "What abilities affect “figures treated as hero figures”?". Are we missing something? :)

Rules as written in Civil War, leaders treated as a hero figures perform 2 actions when activated and may perform any actions a hero could, such as moving, attacking, resting (though this will not gain them any fatigue as they do not have a Stamina), or searching.

 

 

This answer is on NPCs treated as heroes with no explicit rules for eligible actions given in the quest description. Kara's answer indicates that these NPC's can perform 2 attacks and search actions! In contrast, allies and most other NPCs treated as heroes (with explicit rules for actions given in the quest text) cannot do that. I would be surprised if this answer is correct. Comments?


 

Quote

 

5.7. Bleeding condition card description "For each action you resolve... suffer 1 fatique" is quite fuzzy for us, when exactly does a figure suffer that fatique? For example, a monster declares 2 move actions and moves off the map during the second one, but what happens if he has 2 remaining health and a Bleeding condition before declaring his move actions?

At the time of declaring the action (saying “this monster performs a move action,” “I attack,” etc.) the Bleeding figure declaring the action suffers 1 fatigue. In your example, the monster would be defeated before it could move off the map.

 

 

I always thought that "resolve an action" and "declare an action" are different. "Declare" is what you do first and "resolve" is the last step when completing an action. For example, an attack "resolves" in step 5 not in step 1.

 

 

Quote

 

5.8.1. Can OL use passive skills of dark-charmed hero during an attack such as Skirmisher's Unstoppable or Runemaster's "Runic Knowledge"? Both of them do not force a hero to suffer fatique (directly).

The overlord does not gain use of passive skills that allow the hero to choose whether or not to use them (such as Unstoppable) and cannot force a hero to suffer fatigue (as from Runic Knowledge, so no, the overlord could not use Runic Knowledge or Unstoppable. A passive effect that requires no choice and does not cause the hero to suffer fatigue, however, could be used, such as the Star of Kellos.

 

 

Unfortunately this answer is in direct conflict with former uFAQs that clarified that suffering that fatigue from Runic Knowledge is an involuntary effect and not a voluntary decision. My understanding is that a fully fatigued runemaster can suffer that fatigue as damage and that the OL can use the Runic Knowledge surge when forcing a charmed hero to attack.

Edited by Sadgit

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1.2.2: There are two ways I could read that answer with the card text, one is just more ridiculous than the other. Either the meaning is, "the monsters count toward the total regardless of which target they are in range of" (monsters near target 1 stack with monsters near target 2) or it is, "monsters will count toward the total once for each target they are in range of" (a monster will stack with itself if it is range of multiple targets). In either case, it seems clear the total bonus is +4. It's just a question of how easy it is to get to 4.  In the linked image, interpretation 1 would give a bonus of +2. Interpretation 2 would give a bonus of +4.

1.3.2: No. Flail is not an action, it is an ability which applies to all attacks made by the master merriod.

2.12: This looks like a solid answer following attack timing. Surprising, perhaps, but seemingly correct.

3.2: The resting and searching here really surprise me. As far as I was aware, those were actions reserved for heroes (actual heroes, not things treated like heroes- not even allies can search).

5.7: Resolve denotes the last step in an attack, but it is not necessarily the last step of any action. "Declare" is generally the first thing that happens, but "perform" and "resolve" are more or less interchangeable. They're not concretely defined terms.

5.8.1: I don't think the inclusion of "Runic Knowledge" here has anything to do with it being voluntary or involuntary suffering of fatigue. Dark Charm has an explicit prohibition against forcing the hero to suffer fatigue. It seems a way to figure this out would be a follow-up question: "Can an OL use the move action provided by Dark Charm to move a hero out of a space adjacent to a master cave spider?"

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1.3.2: My question was not directly related I admit. When I was thinking about it, I was asking myself what it again was that prohibits monsters using Monster actions that include an attack in this situation.

5.7: Thus, bleeding would cause figures to suffer that fatigue before or after the action is completed? Let's say opening a door. Can a bleeding monster with 1 HP open the door or would it die trying? What about timing if a bleeding hero has 1 fatigue left and performs an action that cost 1 fatigue to perform? Can he perform the action or does bleeding prevent that? Do I get you right that for an attack action, bleeding would trigger in step 5?

5.8.1: A pity that after years this is still not clear. Here is the old answer from Justin on this revoking an earlier ruling by Adam. Now Kara seems to revoke Justin's answer which would bring us back to Adam. 

To clear this up, master cave spider would not work, as the charmed hero is considered to be a monster when moving. Web does not affect monsters.

"Forcing a hero to suffer fatigue" is not well defined. It could be:

A. Spending fatigue to activate skills. This is definitely not allowed for charmed heroes.

B. Suffering fatigue from an effect printed on the Hero Sheet, a Skill or Item card. Runic Knowledge impossible. We have contradicting answers on this.

C. Anything that would cause the hero to suffer fatigue (a charmed, bleeding hero could not perform any action). There is an answer that does allows actions that causes the charmed hero to suffer fatigue from bleeding.       

Edited by Sadgit

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As this is about my favorite topic "Dark Charm" and similar cards: What about a stunned charmed hero?

There has been a uFAQ that Stun does not affect a hero under the effect of Dark Charm. Unfortunately, in this case Nathan did not provide an explanation why. My guess is that Stun is irrelevant because the Dark Charm action is performed outside of the heroes turn and Stunned states: "This is the only action you may perform on your turn while you have this card or token."

This would be also true for other effects that can charm heroes such as Dark Host, Out of Darkness, and Treacherous Shadows. However, One of Us is different as it is may be used in the hero's turn. Thus, my question: Can the OL move and attack with a stunned hero under the effect of One of Us?

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1.3.2: The same thing that prevents a knight from performing "Oath of Honor" as the attack of "Advance", or an elemental using "Fire" in response to the "Frenzy" card. The instruction to "perform an attack" always means a "normal" one, never a special skill or ability that includes one.

5.7 I really think this had been answered somewhere, but I cannot find where I'd seen it. Unless I'm confabulating, I believe the fatigue is suffered after the action is performed (er...resolved...er...completed...finished.) That is, you still get to do the thing, and then you suffer a fatigue. Don't take my word for it, though, I'll post a link if I find that answer.

5.8.1:  :huh: I solve this problem by always playing with Basic II.

5.8.1.Stun: "On your turn" is super important. Dark Charm ignores that because it is not the hero's turn (the hero doesn't even activate). For One of Us, yes, it would be allowed for the simple reason that "One of Us" does not cause the hero to perform an action. USUALLY moving up to your speed and performing an attack will cost an action, but in the case of One of Us, these abilities are granted without any such requirement (for example, consider that when Belthir uses Cry Havoc, he performs one action- not two.)

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5.7 I think most actions have a clear time of when are they finished. Attacking, searching, resting, carrying an item.... The only tricky part I see is moving, as I don't really know if the end of the action is right after you declare it (and gain the movment points), or when they are completely used up. This gets more troublesome when thinking on effects (such as OL/hero abilities) that drain MP from targets, or just turns ending before spending them totally. Movement is usually tricky on its own, because a hero, for example, can declare both movement actions at once, gain MP with fatigue, and then from another sources (like Elven boots), and then spending them all together. At which point is important declaring where is every MP step coming from? Sure it is when using No Rest for The Wicked OL card, but this is juts one of many examples.

Edited by AndrewMM

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@AndrewMM, from uFAQ:

Quote

Q: When, exactly, is a "move action" considered to end?

A: A move action ends when the hero spends his last movement point granted to him through his Speed.

Also the Tripwire OL card implies that a move action persists until spending all the MP gained from it.

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37 minutes ago, Sadgit said:

I have recently submitted a request to define a move action to FFG. Let's see what we get.

I think that questions like this will get them to think that they didn't go far enough when streamlining this game from the first to the second edition:p
It is quite baffling that something simple like moving your figure around the board has created so many questions. It really shows that the more content a game gets the complexity quickly increases.

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In fairness, the only portion of a move action that is ambigous is its ending. Beginning, performing, and interrupting move actions has been explained into the ground. Ending them (specifically, a hard and fast test for when one is over) is the only thing I really find lacking.

All that said, yes- this game is way more complicated than it may appear on the surface.

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Bleeding and Bleeding Monsters in RTL

So, in the RTL rulebook, the wording for removing these conditions is "If a monster cannot perform any action in the current activation and has at least 1 action remaining, it performs the special action to discard [condition]"

In the CRRG, it is worded thus: "If a [Condition] monster cannot perform any other action, it performs the special action to discard [Condition]"

Now the way I initially read/interpreted the RTL rulebook reading was that if a monster had looped through it's action list and still had a remaining action, then it would remove the condition, which seems to be what the wording in the CRRG reflects... this would lead to monsters ending up too busy to remove the conditions, i.e. the removal of the condition became the last resort when all other options had been used or were not valid.

However, recently I've been playing/interpreting the RTL rules differently, in other words, the first time a monster hits an action it can't perform in it's action list, it immediately "subs" that action with the condition removal if it still has one activation remaining ... this seems to me to be more fitting (monsters are more proactive about removing conditions) and seems to be a valid way to interpret the ruling.


Here’s some examples:

Monster 1:

- Engage closest Hero
- Attack hero
- If within 2 spaces of Hero retreat

If Monster 1 is already adjacent to Hero:

CRRG: Monster attacks and retreats, does not address condition
ALT: Monster removes condition then attacks

If Monster 1 is not adjacent to Hero:

CRRG: Monster engages and attacks, does not address condition
ALT: Monster engages and attacks, does not address condition

Monster 2:

- Engage closest Hero who is not Cursed
- Engage closest Hero
- Attack adjacent Hero who is not Cursed
- Attack adjacent Hero
- If within 2 spaces of Hero retreat

If Monster 1 is already adjacent to Cursed Hero (all Heroes Cursed):

CRRG: Monster attacks and retreats, does not address condition
ALT: Monster removes condition then attacks

If Monster 1 is not adjacent to Cursed Hero (all Heroes Cursed):

CRRG: Monster engages and attacks, does not address condition
ALT: Monster removes condition, Monster engages Cursed Hero

 

Am I interpreting the wording in the Rulebook and the CRRG incorrectly? Am I going mad?

Edited by maxam

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Interesting idea. While I agree that the RTL rules on Bleeding and Burning could be interpreted in the way you point out, ultimately, I think that according to RAI monsters ignore conditions if other actions are available.

"If a Bleeding monster cannot perform any action in the current activation" seems to refer to all actions in the action list. The addition of "in the current activation" would not make much sense otherwise. Ignoring Bleeding and Burning is also inline with the way RTL monster handle Doom (only surges that cannot be used otherwise are used to remove Doom).

Still, I think if you are looking for a greater challenge, it it is a good idea to make monsters discard conditions when that is benefical (for them) in a given gameplay situation.  

Edited by Sadgit

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