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Sadgit

The Community Rules Reference Guide (CRRG) Project

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Thanks for that, I think that is RAI although nowhere explicitly written down.

 

Another question. I am aware that Nimble cannot be used when the movement of a large monster is interrupted and it cannot be placed on the map.

What about small monsters entering a space that is adjacent to the Wildlander but occupied by another monster? I guess, it also cannot be used.

Otherwise Nimble would be considered as an interrupt for large monsters and not for small monsters, which is ridiculous.

Shouldn't Nimble be errataed to "Each time a monster moves into an empty space adjacent ..."?

Edited by Sadgit

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Nimble is an interrupt. If the monster cannot interrupt its movement at a particular point for any reason (because it is large, because it is in an occupied apace, etc) nimble cannot be used (in fact no interrupt could be used at that point, for the same reason.

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Do not get me wrong, but do we have any FFG source that confirms that Nimble can only be used when a monster moves into an empty adjacent space?

 

Makes sense.

 

 

My assumption has been that allies are treated just like familiar figures when it comes to class tokens. Just like familiar figures, allies are not heroes, but are treated as heroes for the same purposes as familiar figures. They are also "essentially out of the game" (quoting LoR rulebook) when defeated until an effect brings them back. For allies, it just happens that the effect bringing them back is an instruction in encounter setup.

 

We have treated allies as fresh figures each time they appear, just like a lieutenant.

 

Agree 100% with Zaltyre.

 

Good work on those class tokens Sadgit!

 

Nice to see you covering all possible gaps! I'm daily checking this forum, so I'll help as I can.

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Do not get me wrong, but do we have any FFG source that confirms that Nimble can only be used when a monster moves into an empty adjacent space?

We do not have a specific ruling that says, "it can only be used in an empty space," but that is a logical extension of the ruling regarding a large monster unable to expand. Nimble interrupts movement. Therefore, it can only be used when interrupting movement is legal. If the figure in question is in a blocked space or would be forced to expand into a blocked space, Nimble can't be used.

 

There's an unwritten principle which governs a lot of the situations encountered in game, especially in the movement department:

 

If an event could directly lead to a situation that is known to violate the rules, than said event is not allowed.

 

Why can't you play tripwire on a hero who just entered an occupied space? Because you would cause him to end his movement in a blocked space. (yes, tripwire says, "empty space", but that is why it must.)

 

Why can a hero who has been grease trapped move through a friendly figure only in certain cases? (Hero affected by grease trap moving to the right = H, other friendly figures = F, empty space = O

 

Case 1: HFFO

 

Case 2: HOFF

 

Case 3: HFOF

 

(Assuming the OL chooses to inflict all penalties as damage) in case 1, the hero will move through both figures and suffer no damage. In case 2, he will move through neither and suffer 2 damage. In case 3, he will move through the first, but not the second, and suffer 1 damage. Why?

 

Because if cases 2 or 3 worked differently, his movement would end in a blocked space.

 

Why can't a hero enter a hero's space if said hero is standing on crumbling terrain? Ditto.

Edited by Zaltyre

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Great explanation, Zalt! I was not aware of the effect that friendly figures can have on Grease Trap movement. Will put it into the guide. As I was implying, I share the same view when it comes to Nimble from a rule set perspective: The same rules have to apply  for any figure, small or large, to keep consistency.

However, what made me wonder is that FFG representatives are reluctant to give any umbrella rule for interrupts and the change to Nimble would be a nerf to that skill giving the OL opportunities to circumvent its usage. In addition, similar skills such as Guard and Raise Dead have received erratas that specifically address identical problems. In those cases "space" has been explicitly changed to "empty space" whereas Nimble did not receive such an errata!

I guess, rule consistency should take precedence over possible balancing problems? Still, Nimble may lead to extended discussions in some groups when they encounter these questions and preventing those is one of the main aims of my guide ...  

I will be putting a more detailed explanation on Nimble into the guide, until FFG provides a clearcut answer on this.

Edited by Sadgit

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Another one where I need your help/opinions:

kZla14L.png

 

official FAQ:

Q: If the Beastmaster performs the special attack with the Wolf using
“Shadow Hunter,” does that count as the Wolf’s activation?
A: No.

 

Situation:

Wolf on the map with monster adjacent to it.

 

Question:

How many times may the Beastmaster use SH in his turn?

This is closely connected to what exactly "Before activating your wolf" actually means.

 

Possibilty 1: "Before activating your wolf" is meant to be a restriction to SH

SH can be used three times using this sequence of steps:

  1. Start "Perform Hero Actions" (step 3.II; see below) of Beastmaster turn, use SH
  2. 1st action: Resummon wolf
  3. Use SH
  4. 2nd action: Resummon wolf
  5. Use SH
  6. End Beastmaster turn

Wolf was never activated and the restriction "Before activating your wolf" was fulfilled each time.

 

Possibilty 2: "Before activating your wolf" is meant to be a timing trigger for SH

SH can be used two times using this sequence of steps:

  1. Use SH in between steps 3. and 3.I. of the Beastmaster turn.
  2. Start step 3.II.; 1st action: Resummon wolf
  3. 2nd action: do something else and end step 3.II.
  4. Use SH in between steps 3.II. and 3.III. of the Beastmaster turn.
  5. End Beastmaster turn

Justin's answer here and discussion of other people here seem to indicate that Possibiltiy 2 is supported. However, that feels very wrong to me because it would imply that a Skill card is used outside of the Perform actions step 3.II (which is outside of "During your turn") of a hero.

 

p8Iv063.jpg

EDITED to make the post clearer.

Edited by Sadgit

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Shadow hunter is not used "during your turn." It is used just before you would activate your wolf (it's a timing trigger). This means the most you can use it in one round is twice (but the next round you won't be able to use it more than once because your turn will start without a wolf on the map).

So, starting with a wolf on the map from some previous round:

3.I: shadow hunter

3.II: Use an action to summon wolf

3.III: shadow hunter

Next round...

3.I: (there is no wolf)

3.II: use an action to summon wolf

3.III shadow hunter

That's the most frequwntly it can be used, and means you aren't activating the wolf at all.

3.I activate wolf

3.II: (whatever)

3.III shadow hunter

is not allowed because, having previously activated, your wolf could not have activated in 3.III, so shadow hunter isn't a valid option. However

3.I shadow hunter

3.II: action to summon wolf

3.III activate wolf

Is fine because shadow hunter does not count as the wolf's activation.

Regarding nimble, I think we didn't get an errata because the question that was asked dealt with large monsters, and just changing the card to "empty space" would not address that issue at all. What the ruling established (which is the same thing established for Guard) is that on our "case-by-case" basis, these two abilities ARE interrupts. Therefore, they must interrupt legally, as I said, which gives us a pretty good guide to when they can and cannot be used.

Edited by Zaltyre

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I would just rephrase to something like "The Wolf may be summoned as normal during a turn after Shadow Hunter is used, and may activate as normal after the Beastmaster finishes 3.II."

The wording you have looks to me like it could be misread to imply the wolf can be brought back right after using shadow hunter, rather than needing to use Bound By the hunt as an action. If you don't think that misreading is likely, feel free to leave it as is.

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Great, will include your suggestions.

 

EDIT: Modified version:

  • Shadow Hunter may only be used immediately before activating the wolf in step 3.I. and immediately before step 3.III. (see "Hero Turn" on page 36).
  • However, it may not be used after the wolf has been activated in the same turn.
  • The wolf may be summoned as normal during a turn after Shadow Hunter is used, and may activate as normal after the Beastmaster finishes 3.II.
  • The Shadow Hunter attack gains the bonuses from Savagery and/or an exhausted Changing Skins card.
Edited by Sadgit

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Can someone confirm that I got the details for the Overlord card "Uncontrolled Power" right, please?

 

Card Text: Uncontrolled Power

Play this card when a hero attacks a monster, after rolling dice. He tests willpower. If he fails, you choose how he spends his surge results. You must spend as many surge results as possible and the attack gains Surge: Suffer 1 fatigue
Mage: If he fails, the attack also gains:
Surge: Suffer 1 heart and 1 fatigue

 

Situation A: Ranged attack

- hero rolled 3 surges but insufficient range

- hero has a +range surge ability that would prevent the attack to miss

- OL would have to spend one surge on the +range sure ability  during step 3 (Check range) or combat.

- OL would ab able to spend the remaining surges as he chooses.

 

Result: The OL cannot force in miss in this situation because Uncontrolled Power forces him to use the +range ability in step 3. The reason here is that the OL "must spend as many surge results as possible" and according to RAW he cannot spend surge results on anything other than +range in step 3.

 

Situation B: Attack on a monster with shadow

- hero rolled 3 surges while being adjacent to a monster with the shadow ability

- If the OL is able to spend the 3 surges in step 4 (Spend surges) without using a surge for the Shadow ability, the attack is considered a miss and all effects triggered by spending surges in step 4 become irrelevant.

 

Result: The OL can force a miss in this situation because the text on Uncontrolled Power does not force him to use a surge for the shadow ability in step 4.

 

Situation C: Attack roll with more surges than surge abilities available

- hero rolled 3 surges during an attack but has only 1 available surge ability on his cards.

- OL may spend 1 surge on the surge ability added by Uncontrolled Power, 1 surge on the surge ability provided by a hero card and must spend the last surge to recover 1 fatigue for the hero. The OL must do that even when the hero has no fatigue token on his sheet.

- when the OL spends the last available surge to recover 1 fatigue in situation B, the attack is considered to miss and thus the fatigue would not be recovered after all.

 

Result: Recovering a fatigue can be considered as an intrinsic surge ability of all heroes and follows the same rules as other surge abilities.

Edited by Sadgit

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Has situation B been confirmed? While I'm venturing into "just-my-opinion" land here, I view the shadow surge in a very similar way to the necessary range surge- it's a fundamental requirement in making the attack not miss.

In other words, the net result if not spending the shadow surge and not soending a critical range surge is the same- the attack misses, so no surges can be spent.

For example, say you were to roll for an attack requiring shadow and roll no surges. The attack (in my opinion) would end at or before the spend surges step. Or, to drive the point a little further: consider a shadow walker adjacent to a shadow dragon performing an attack. When does the shadow soul get placed? In step 3 as normal? (If so, the shadow surge is required to progress past that step.) Step 4 after the surge has been spent? (The presence of shadow alters the timing of shadow soul placement?)

I'm not saying your conclusion about situation B is wrong, just that I think it deserves closer inspection. Step 3 , while technically all about checking range only, is in practice the "miss determining step" mostly because range is the largest determinant of misses. Even for a melee attack, step 3 is when the X takes effect to resolve an attack as miss (rolling the X doesn't end the attack, reaching the end of step 2 without cancelling or changing it does).

Edited by Zaltyre

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No, I cannot give you a official confirmation on Uncontrolled Power in combination with Shadow.

 

My personal impression when I wrote the paragraph was the following:

1. Uncontrolled Power dictates the OL to "spend as many surge results as possible". When combatants enter step 3, the OL has to follow the rule and spend a surge if possible. As you know, nothing else can be used besides +range surge abilities and this only if the attack would otherwise miss. Thus, without an alternative surge ability that may be used, the OL must use the +range one.

2. In step 4 this is different, as all surge abilities may be used. Thus, if possible the OL can spend surges in a way that causes the attack to be a miss.

 

Here is the only relevant FFG answer I could find on this:

The question is on an attack roll with 1 surge and insufficient range.

A: If the overlord wanted to be able to spend any other surges, he would need to first trigger the +1 Range, or no other surge abilities would be able to be triggered. Of course, he still needs to spend as many surge results as possible, meaning Uncontrolled Power would not be ideal to use in this situation, as he could not force a miss by playing it in this situation. (full source)

 

When I read this I was focusing on the last part "he could not force a miss by playing it in this situation". It sounds like that there are other situations where a miss can be forced. However, your point of view is also valid. We might have to ask FFG for a clarification.

 

Actually are there other abilities that can cause an attack to miss in step 4?

Edited by Sadgit

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Regarding weapon mastery and rune mastery, can the berserker/runemaster wait to exhaust their skills after Uncontrolled Power resolves? If not, in wich step are those skills adding the surges? Can rune mastery add a surge to be used increasing range to a ranged attack in step 3? Going further, can weapon mastery/rune mastery be used to pay the surge cost from "shadow" ability?

Edited by Dommus

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To add to that: Weapon Mastery and Rune Mastery have been (uFAQ) ruled to trigger in step 2 of the attack after rolling dice. Infact, all abilities that have the triggering condition, "before rolling dice", "after rolling dice" when "when you attack" or "when you perform an attack" (and similar) may only be used in step 2 unless another triggering condition is specified.

That's why the "game of chicken" is on. As these abilities trigger in step 2, surges gained from those abilities may be used for range and shadow.

Edited by Sadgit

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I think it's a bit off topic, and Im sry for that, but in this case of the "game of chicken" of masteries and uncontrolled power, what you think about a house rule where either OL and the hero chose secretly if are going to play the skill/OL card on a given attack? 

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I dislike such a house rule. There is strategy on both sides in the current system:

The hero needs to weigh the benefit from an extra surge against the likelihood that the OL has uncontrolled power, will play it, and the chance he will fail if it is played.

Meanwhile, the OL needs to decide (if he has uncontrolled power) whether THIS is the attack he wants to foil, or if he wants the hero to "waste" the extra surge on a monster he doesn't need. If he doesn't have uncontrolled power, that is a whole different psychological ballgame (and this is the real reason I like the game of chicken).

Basic 2 does not have the raw power of Basic 1. The cards are, on a straight damage/action scale, less powerful, and at the very least less dependable (more tests involved). However, they're mostly reactionary. That is, the basic 2 cards wait for the hero to make a move, then turn it against him (much like the punisher deck). Unlike the punisher deck, basic 2 focuses on particular archetypes. Befuddle and Mimic punish scouts more heavily than others for searching or making tests. Uncontrolled power punishes mages more for attacking. Dirty fighting punishes healers more for being on the front lines. Over the course of the campaign, a skilled overlord can condition his heroes AGAINST these behaviors. If the fear of uncontrolled power means the mage is less likely to attack, or to attack with mana weave, it has helped the OL without being played. If the heroes keep the healer away from danger to avoid getting pierced, or send the mage off to search the (likely) mimic token instead of the scout, or ask the warrior to make the awareness check for the door... the Overlord is reaping the benefits of his cards even while they're harmlessly buried in his deck.

Edit: final example- There was a recent thread about "how does an overlord beat a hexer who can add 20 damage to an attack with plague cloud? Answer: by making that hexer think twice because a reflective ward might force that same squishy hexer to defend against 20 damage.

Edited by Zaltyre

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You CANNOT wait to exhaust until after uncontrolled power, and you CANNOT wait to play uncontrolled power until after exhaustiong of rune mastery. It is literally a game of chicken.

 

Ok then let me see if I get it straight. I may be playing it wrong, maybe.

 

There is a preference on timing conflicts in Descent right? The turn owner gets the preference right?

 

So, since Mana weave/weapon mastery/rune mastery are hero effects, that hero always get's the preference over the OL correct?

 

OR are u trying to tell me the 1st player that announces  a mastery/mana weave or uncontrolled power gets the preference?

Edited by Dommus

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You CANNOT wait to exhaust until after uncontrolled power, and you CANNOT wait to play uncontrolled power until after exhaustiong of rune mastery. It is literally a game of chicken.

 

To add to that: Weapon Mastery and Rune Mastery have been (uFAQ) ruled to trigger in step 2 of the attack after rolling dice. Infact, all abilities that have the triggering condition, "before rolling dice", "after rolling dice" when "when you attack" or "when you perform an attack" (and similar) may only be used in step 2 unless another triggering condition is specified.

That's why the "game of chicken" is on. As these abilities trigger in step 2, surges gained from those abilities may be used for range and shadow.

 

I'm confused too. By the looks of things all 3 of these cards fire off in step 2 of the attack if I'm reading Sadgit's post correctly. Why would exhausting any of these cards end step 2 and prevent another player from responding?

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I am not saying that either ability prevents the other from being used. In fact, I am saying the opposite. What I mean is there is no 'safe' time to use mana weave when the hero can be certain uncontrolled power won't be played. Likewise, the OL doesn't have any assurance mana weave will be exhausted until it is. He doesn't get to play uncontrolled power and then demand the hero exhaust mana weave because, " I know you wee planning to". The golden rule doesn't apply because the timing does not conflict. The order of the abilities is actually irrelevant, the only thing that matters is the decision to use the ability or not. This FFG rules response should clarify. It was actually ABOUT terminology, but I got an answer relevant to this question:

Rule Question:

What is the timing relationship between "when attacking" and "after dice are rolled"? For example, if a hero with the rune mastery skill attacks a monster, when can (or must) the overlord use a card like "uncontrolled power"? Must the hero choose to exhaust rune mastery before the OL plays the card, or is there a time after which the OL cannot play "uncontrolled power," but rune mastery can still be exhausted? Thank you.

Answer:

“When attacking” is poor wording for timing. I would use/exhaust Rune Mastery after rolling dice. Because of this, both cards have the same timing. Either player can use their card before the other. If the Runemaster uses Runic Mastery after the overlord has played Uncontrolled Power, the overlord would still get to decide how to spend that surge.

Edited by Zaltyre

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@Protopersona

 

You got my post. All three effects trigger in step 2. What Zalt is referring to is that neither hero players nor the OL player can wait for the other side to play Mana Weave, Weapon Mastery and such or Uncontrolled Power. E.g. If the heroes know or supect that the overlord has Uncontrolled Power there is no time point in the game where the OL has to play Uncontrolled Power and the heroes can still react on this play by not using Mana Weave. Likewise, there is not time point in the game where the hero player have to use Mana Weave and the OL can still react with Uncontrolled Power. Both sides can wait for the other or do nothing at all and proceed to step 3.

 

Got ninja'ed by Zaltyre :)  Stopping here.

Edited by Sadgit

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I'm pretty sure I get it now. Zaltyre's original post was worded that the OL cannot wait and play Uncontrolled Power in response to the hero exhausting Mana Weave/Rune Mastery. I understand completely why you can't play Uncontrolled Power first and then expect the hero to exhaust cards he hasn't already done so. The idea that the OL couldn't wait until the hero chose to exhaust his cards before playing Uncontrolled Power was what I was hung up on.

Edited by ProtoPersona

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I'm pretty sure I get it now. Zaltyre's original post was worded that the OL cannot wait and play Uncontrolled Power in response to the hero exhausting Mana Weave/Rune Mastery. I understand completely why you can't play Uncontrolled Power first and then expect the hero to exhaust cards he hasn't already done so. The idea that the OL couldn't wait until the hero chose to exhaust his cards before playing Uncontrolled Power was what I was hung up on.

That was my fault for the wording. Glad we're on the same page now.

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