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Sadgit

The Community Rules Reference Guide (CRRG) Project

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I guess, it might not be worth your time, if you are not familiar with Photoshop/Illustrator-like software. I can do it myself as soon as I get there. Unless you really want to learn graphics ...

 

What about putting together some "O"-entries?

 

It's mostly copy-paste from the rule books, condensing it if needed, looking up FAQ and uFAQ for relevant entries and putting it all together emulating the language of the official rule books. I already have all the images we need extracted. Do not care about formatting, just the text should suffice.

Edited by Sadgit

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Nice work Sadgit. Contributing with it so far, I engaged into a debate about what consist an "interrupt", allowing a large figure to expand. Far as we know, an action is an interrupting event, and some non action abilities also are (i.e. Nimble).

 

The point is to exactly know when a skill/ability constitutes an interrupt, since it really matters for the purposes of expanding a large figure. For instance, does a prayer of healing consist into an interrupt? The use of the exhaust option on Soulless Scythe constitute an interrupt (note if wielded by a large liutenant, and thus not allowing an expansion, the large figure will deal a condition while shrunk, kind of weird ...)?

 

I know Zaltyre already submited a rule clarification post, so I'm just making it more public by revisiting the thread.

 

You can check out the whole post here: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/192231-move-actions-and-fatigue/

 

In the name of the community, thank you for your concern about the rules clarification  :)

Unfortunately, the answer provided by FFG as posted by Zaltyre yesterday indicates that there is no general definition of the term "Interrupt". Still, I think we need the keyword to be included in the CRRG as e.g. rules for interrupting a move action by another action are fairly well covered in the existing rule set.

 

Could you please put together an entry for "Interrupts"? Giving general rules followed by examples of "non-standard" interrupts (e.g. Nimble and such) and how they work as confirmed by FFG is maybe a good structure. Maybe Zaltyre can be of help?

 

BtW: Checking LOS does not seem to be an interrupt, as can be deduced from an answer by FFG on Glyphs of Transport in the Monster's Hoard quest.

Edited by Sadgit

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Not that you wrote anything incorrectly, but I worry there will be some confusion regarding the terms "moved" and "moved into". Specifically, "Any time...from one space to another..." and "...placed is not moving into..." Again, both statements are true, but unless someone is looking for a subtle turn of phrase, they might think those statements contradict each other. I'd suggest perhaps adding a bullet first on the list under "move into" that marks its distinction from "move," a more general term.

Is it weird that when Syndrael uses Oath of Honor she has moved, but she never moved into any space, she was just placed in one that she entered? Yes, it is.

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I'm liking  it very much, just some heads up:

 

I understand the concern from Zalt about the keywords, but they are really different and I think Sadgit is doing  it the right way. The concept of "entering a space" and "moving into a space" are quite confusing but each concept is vital for the complexity in movement.

 

I believe "moving into" should get one more aspect in my point of view, I might be wrong but, when a figure is "moving into" a space, it necessarily needs to be adjacent to that space, while "entering a space" does not have this requirement.

 

I think it's all very well covered, but I miss the "forced movement" concept, i.e. Grease Trap, Sir Alric Farrow overrun ability. Note, this kind of movement is not willingly made, it's a resolving effect phase. I dont even know if this mechanic should be considered a movement at all, since it has such a narrow purpose in the whole thing. But it definatelly must be better explained.

 

I can't think off another example of forced movement, but it can certainly conflict with other game effects like master cave spider "web" ability. This topic https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/161356-alrics-overpower/is where I discussed this exact example.

 

Besides that, I think its good work out there.

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@Zaltyre

I modified the corresponding paragraphs:

 

Movement
Any time a figure or other object changes its position from one space to another space on the map, it is considered to have moved in a general sense. [...]
 

Moving into a space
When a figure changes its position due to an effect explicitly including the keyword "move", it is moving into a space. A figure being "placed" is not moving into a space.
A Large monster expanding into a space is not moving into that space. [...]

.

@Dommus

I included that statement: "When a game effect causes a figure to move, the active player decides on all aspects of the movement." to address forced movement.

However, I agree that maybe it should be mentioned more prominently. Will work on it.

 

@all

Do you agree that the movement of Large figures should be discussed in a separate paragraph? It would be also possible to include it into "Movement", as most of the existing "Large figures" paragraph is actually on movement atm. However "Movement" would get even longer than it already is by now (~1 additional column).

Edited by Sadgit

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I think as long as you are consistent, either way works. You could have large monster move as a subsection of move and large monster attacks as a subsection of attack, or you could have movement and attack of large monsters in their own section (i kind of like that). Lay out the general rules in the main section, exceptions for large monsters all grouped together.

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Hi, 

 
I just read the topic and I consider it to be amazing, I always wanted to have something like this since I discovered Zaltyre's Glossary of Terms, but didn't know how, nor have the skill to do it. Nonetheless, I'm willing to help. I can help writing Keywords for "O" (objetives, obstacles, etc.) as it is mentioned in post #3. Or try to graphic with Gimp LOS examples.
 
One thing, I don't know if it was consider in the section of combat, under the keyword of "target" or "affected" those hybrid things that can be targetted or affected by attacks while they are not figures, such as the objetive token of Forgotten Souls or a door. This because in the "door" topic there is an answer that provides a better idea than the one on BGG FAQ.

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Thanks for your support! It would be great, if you could do the "O" keywords! PM sent with details.

 

These objects that are treated as monsters under special circumstances are interesting indeed. Possible keywords where this could be included are at the moment:

  • attack
  • object
  • monster
  • target
Edited by Sadgit

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Here is a draft for the rather difficult term "Interrupt". What do I need to add/change?

 

Interrupt
An interrupt is an effect that is triggered when another effect is in progress. Interrupts are listed on various game components (such as Overlord cards, Skill cards, Hero sheets, etc.). Unfortunately, interrupts other than actions interrupting move actions are not well defined in the rule set and FFG representatives tend to decide on a case-to-case basis. The following summarizes what is known on interrupts:

Interrupts by the active player

  • In general, move actions and abilities that explicitly include a move action (e.g. Overpower) are the only actions that may be voluntarily interrupted.
  • In addition, other actions may be interrupted by effects that explicitly list the action in progress as a triggering condition. For example, an attack may be interrupted by an effect that triggers "before rolling attack dice" or "after suffering damage" but not by an ability that triggers "during your turn".
  • When a move action of a large figure is interrupted by another action, the large figure expands and is placed on the map.
  • When interrupting a large monster’s move action to perform another action, the overlord must be able to declare the interrupting action before placing the monster’s figure on the map.
  • When the interrupting effect is resolved, the move action may be  continued and the figure may spend remaining movement points. The active player chooses a space to which a large figure shrinks.

Interrupts by another player or effect

  • This type of interrupt can only be triggered if a special triggering condition is fulfilled.
  • Details of how the interrupt is resolved are usually included in the card text.
  • Movement of a large monster cannot be interrupted (e.g. using Nimble, Caltrops, Guard) if there is no space for the monster to expand.
  • In the case of timing conflicts, the active player decides the order in which the abilities are resolved.
  • Interrupts for which an explicit ruling by FFG representatives exists have been included in section 2 of this guide.
Edited by Sadgit

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Just to keep you updated: I am working on info graphics at the moment.

This is the one on movement:

 

urmLUtG.jpg

 

Do you think it might be better to replace the door in the top right panel by an elevation line?

It would look like this:

 

hHa3nHj.png

 

This way I could include the underlined text in the explanations:

 

"Figures cannot move across elevation lines or through doors, portcullis or old walls. This includes diagonal movement through a shared corner with a wall or map edge."

 

Is it worth it or does it unnecessarily complicate the figure?

Edited by Sadgit

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Do you think it might be better to replace the door in the top right panel by an elevation line?

 

Is it worth it or does it unnecessarily complicate the figure?

 

IMHO the elevation line is the way to go.

 

Amazing work BTW!

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Absolutely priceless for the community.

 

No words here Sadgit, it's perfect.

 

This page alone would avoid 60% of the issues I had in Decent.

 

Can't wait to see the whole document.

 

Let me know if I can help with anything.

 

Very well done.

Edited by Dommus

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I am putting together info graphics for "Special Combat Situations" similar to the movement examples I posted above. 

 

At the moment I am covering:

 

1. Reach and line of sight

2. Ranged attacks and line of sight

3. Blast

4. Fire Breath

5. Advance (Knightl)

6. Oath of Honor (Knight)

7. Plague Cloud (Hexer)

 

Do you want me to include another skill / situation that often causes problems? Any suggestions?

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Do you agree with these mechanism of effects from incendiary arrows and magic staff?

 

Incendiary arrows:

Damage is suffered during the "4. Spend surges" step as due to Shadow this is the step that ultimately determines if the attack is a hit or miss.

A large monster targeted by the attack is itself not affected by incendiary arrows - only other figures on spaces adjacent to the targeted space are affected.

I think, that the damage is not considered to be "damage suffered from an attack" and e.g. Jain's Hero ability could not be used to prevent that damage.

 

Magic Staff:

Damage is also suffered during the "4. Spend surges" step as the surge ability is not modifying the attack itself but triggers an independent effect.

I am not sure if this is considered as damage "suffered from an attack" though. It is a surge ability after all. On the other hand damage is not suffered in step "5. Deal damage."

Edited by Sadgit

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From the outset, let me say that since step 3 is virtually instantaneous, the following is unlikely to change anything important, but: I'd disagree that you deal the incendiary damage during step 4. You deal it during step 3 unless there is a conflicting trigger forcing the determination of "miss" until later. I might also point out that by step 3 you know what the results are (that is, you know if there is an available surge) and that's sufficient to claim that the attack will not miss. 

 

I would not consider Magic Staff to be attack damage. The figure damaged is neither affected nor targeted by the attack (just like Incendiary arrows).

 

BTW: I've said it before, but thank you any2cards for the companion card viewer. It saves all the trouble of looking up the exact text of cards in discussions like this.

Edited by Zaltyre

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BTW: I've said it before, but thank you any2cards for the companion card viewer. It saves all the trouble of looking up the exact text of cards in discussions like this.

 

You are most welcome.  This is the precise reason why I created it.  As you know, I have severe memory degradation issues, and anytime I wanted to participate on these forums, I had to constantly dig out the game and read the card (or worse ... cards) just to figure out what the debate was about.

 

At my age, lifting all of the damned heavy games around, digging through various containers, etc., it often became way more trouble than it was worth.

 

Now all I have to do is move the cursor to the underlined card in question.  Sooooo much easier.  The fact that others, such as yourself, also benefit from it is a major bonus.  If some of you have not installed this extension yet, I highly recommend it (of course, I am biased).

 

It is things like this, as well as tools that you have developed, and that Sadgit is developing, that make it worthwhile participating in this community !

 

NEWS FLASH:

This just in ... the countdown clock is running ... only 77 more days until it has been 1 year since the last FAQ update by FFG.

 

Since the previous update was a year before that, perhaps we will see something soon.  The FGC (Federal Gaming Commission) highly recommends NOT holding your breath, due to the possibility of taking damage in excess of your Health.

Edited by any2cards

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Do you agree with these mechanism of effects from incendiary arrows and magic staff?

 

Incendiary arrows:

Damage is suffered during the "4. Spend surges" step as due to Shadow this is the step that ultimately determines if the attack is a hit or miss.

A large monster targeted by the attack is itself not affected by incendiary arrows - only other figures on spaces adjacent to the targeted space are affected.

I think, that the damage is not considered to be "damage suffered from an attack" and e.g. Jain's Hero ability could not be used to prevent that damage.

 

Magic Staff:

Damage is also suffered during the "4. Spend surges" step as the surge ability is not modifying the attack itself but triggers an independent effect.

I am not sure if this is considered as damage "suffered from an attack" though. It is a surge ability after all. On the other hand damage is not suffered in step "5. Deal damage."

 

From the outset, let me say that since step 3 is virtually instantaneous, the following is unlikely to change anything important, but: I'd disagree that you deal the incendiary damage during step 4. You deal it during step 3 unless there is a conflicting trigger forcing the determination of "miss" until later. I might also point out that by step 3 you know what the results are (that is, you know if there is an available surge) and that's sufficient to claim that the attack will not miss. 

 

I would not consider Magic Staff to be attack damage. The figure damaged is neither affected nor targeted by the attack (just like Incendiary arrows).

 

BTW: I've said it before, but thank you any2cards for the companion card viewer. It saves all the trouble of looking up the exact text of cards in discussions like this.

 

So, on dealing conditions, the attacker can't profit from the 1dmg dealt by both Incendiary Arrows or Magic Staff right? Since they are not part of the attack.

 

It's clear to me, but it should be usefull to be literally written on the crrg.

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From the outset, let me say that since step 3 is virtually instantaneous, the following is unlikely to change anything important, but: I'd disagree that you deal the incendiary damage during step 4. You deal it during step 3 unless there is a conflicting trigger forcing the determination of "miss" until later. I might also point out that by step 3 you know what the results are (that is, you know if there is an available surge) and that's sufficient to claim that the attack will not miss. 

 

I have to disagree with this. The existence of a surge is not sufficient to claim that the attack won't be a miss. The surge must be used on Shadow for it. One can think on the rare situation where the attacker don't want to spend that surge and deliberately miss the attack, but if this case occurs, by your reasoning the damage would have been already dealt. Let's take it even further, with this example: imagine the Dragon who creates the shadow is not the target, but is adjacent to it. If the damage dealt by Incendiary Arrows is dealt before spending surges, this Dragon could be defeated in the process, and the surge would not even be needed to be applied to the shadow!

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There is a tricky question answered a while ago by a game developer that I think can be fitted in this section, the multi refreshing item (for example: mana weave, lucky charm, tival crystal, fortuna's dice) in the same round.

 

After exhausting a mana weave for example, a hero "A" can perform a move action to trade items with the hero "B" that didn't activate this round, handling over the mana weave. On the Hero "B" activation, the mana weave is gonna refresh, effectively being exhausted 2 times in the same round, or even more if it pleases the heroes.

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From the outset, let me say that since step 3 is virtually instantaneous, the following is unlikely to change anything important, but: I'd disagree that you deal the incendiary damage during step 4. You deal it during step 3 unless there is a conflicting trigger forcing the determination of "miss" until later. I might also point out that by step 3 you know what the results are (that is, you know if there is an available surge) and that's sufficient to claim that the attack will not miss. 

 

I have to disagree with this. The existence of a surge is not sufficient to claim that the attack won't be a miss. The surge must be used on Shadow for it. One can think on the rare situation where the attacker don't want to spend that surge and deliberately miss the attack, but if this case occurs, by your reasoning the damage would have been already dealt. Let's take it even further, with this example: imagine the Dragon who creates the shadow is not the target, but is adjacent to it. If the damage dealt by Incendiary Arrows is dealt before spending surges, this Dragon could be defeated in the process, and the surge would not even be needed to be applied to the shadow!

 

Now we're just going down a rabbit hole, but I actually disagree with your statement about the dragon. Counter-intuitive as it may seem, the ability says, "A hero adjacent to this monster that declares an attack must spend 1 Surge or the attack is considered a miss" (which I would interpret to mean that if the dragon is there when the attack is declared, the shadow fee must be paid regardless of whether the dragon gets defeated before the spend surges step- or maybe not. Curse those oddly worded abilities!!

 

However, your voluntary miss example is spot on. I sort of discounted that as a hero trying to have his cake and eat it too (if you inflict the damage in step 3, you can't also voluntarily choose to miss in step 4. ) That isn't a rock solid policy, for sure. 

 

I'm not certain about what would happen in the shadow scenario, honestly. However, I'm confident that in the absence of a conflicting trigger (such as shadow), once the attack is determined "not a miss" (step 3) the damage could be inflicted. 

Edited by Zaltyre

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