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Edge of the Empire and X-Wing

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Yeesh, I figured out the "disbelieve time" reference.  I bit heady but definitely not a nuanced rejoinder.

 

In D&D (IIRC) if you face an illusionist who is creating illusions, the action required to overcome the illusions is to "disbelieve" in the illusion.  Grab the ol' d20 roll vs save (of some sort.  I Haven't actually played D&D since 1982). and if you succeed, presto the illusion disappears.

 

The gag, as I recall, involves the party facing an illusionist and in the last room, they encounter a fierce dragon.  The players realizing that the dragon is way over powered for their group, one of the geniuses decides to "disbelieve" the dragon.  He succeeds the save roll, but the dragon wasn't an illusion after all.  TPK.

 

AND, is some circles among physicists there is the thought that "TIME" is an 'illusion.'

 

 

Ergo, "I disbelieve your assertion regarding the time it takes for a turn to complete."

 

 

Yeah, I know.  Still absurd.

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Kallabecca, I've read the rules three times and I didn't come away from reading them that the time of a turn was that long.  Sure the time a turn takes is a "couple of seconds," but I refuse to believe that I can only effectively pull the trigger on a weapon system ever other minute.

 

It is "about a minute", refer to page 198 of the EotE core.  Your comment about pulling the trigger misses the point of this narrative system.  Other games like D&D use about 6 seconds as a turn, which means they are going for a "one swing of the sword = one roll of the dice" model.  This game is about a minute and it's assumed you can fire off multiple shots, perhaps only a couple of which will hit, doing a total of X damage.  This is how you can kill a couple of minions per turn:  one might exceed their wound threshold, and you might crit another, so that's at least 2 pulls of the trigger.  And if your GM is lenient ( like me :) ) you can crit multiple times.

 

It's the same with space combat.  In the movies and TV shows, there's a lot of ineffective firing, and not all of that has to be chalked up to a dice roll failure.  Narratively they could be firing, but really too busy navigating asteroids to line up a good shot.  But a threat on a target's piloting roll could still be narrated as "wild shooting that got lucky".

 

 

Yeah, I confirmed your quote in EotE "Roughly a minute or so . . ." and I'm still disbelieving it. 

 

That "construct" would totally ruin this game for me so I have to continue to disbelieve it . . .  "It's all just a bunch of hand waving and non such."

 

I'll continue to interpret SW RPG turns as a "vague passage of time," because we're doing so many things in our SW RPG game that the timing is just so much faster paced that I can't imagine spending "close to a minute" doing a single turn (in combat terms).

 

I'd believe "maybe 6 seconds or so."  10 Seconds tops.  <shrug>.  Thank goodness that term is so vaguely defined in EotE. 

 

You know, if a "stand still" in combat is reached, I could see a turn maybe being up to a minute, but in our campaign, once the blaster bolts start flying, you'd be lucky if a single turn were more than 5 frenetic seconds long.

 

So forgive me my belligerence on that fine point.  "I still disbelieve."  Quite honestly, I don't see this as a really relevant point to mine or your enjoyment to the game either.  If you want to think that your turns are structured in "1 minute length" terms knock yourself out.  Enjoy!

 

 

However the point of this thread is not "How long a turn is" but, "Are there good and useful ways to incorporate X-Wing mini's/rules into a SW RPG."  And honestly, I'd love to hear any thoughts or ideas that anyone else has come up with to solve this conundrum.  But so far, the general consensus is "No one has any good deep thoughts on this subject."

think of it this way. Shooting multiple minions in a minion group is not a single trigger pull. It is not a burst of fire. It is several flurries of shots at multiple targets. When you realize that 6 seconds does not make sense. But about a minute does.

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In none of my three core books does it say anywhere a round is "about" a minute.

This is a rough quote.

It says that a round CAN last up to roughly a minute, and lasts lasts enough for everyone involved to move to a new location, and perform an important action. The length of time is intentionally left vague.

This does not imply that "it is" or "it is about" anything. It states the time is left vague on purpose, but it could last up to a minute.

To say people are wrong that are using small "increments of time" for their combat is incorrect. To say that "your way is the only right way" is not right either. In combat, things happen fast. Out of combat, things don't have to happen in set 5/6 second time frame and keep track of every round of the technician repairing or slicing.

If you need a minute to shoot 2-3 minions, dude, you really need to go to a shooting range. You know how many clips I can unload in a minute, and still hit my targets?

Yes, a round CAN last up to a minute, but the rules do not call out and say that they can not be shorter, in fact, it pretty much spells it our that it is. A round lasts long enough for everyone to move, and perform an important action. Unless your action is boiling an egg, I don't think you need much time in a round, but it's not important to know if it's 10 seconds of "time" or 45 seconds "time" in the game world for most rounds. If you want your rounds to be a minute, great, but you can't say people are wrong when they have rounds in their games that aren't, because, yes you are wrong on what the actual rule says.

For Mark Caliber, I'm sorry to say, I do not know of anything beyond what FFG has put out to integrate X-wing and EotE, I myself feel this games does not benefit from using miniatures. It has been my experaince that once the minis are out, the fast narrative approach to the game leaves, and it turns into a D20 tactical mini game about hard distance, time, OOP, line of sights. I have a ton of WotC SW minis that I don't use anymore because for me and the groups I have run the game for, it just drags everything out. Even with the ships.

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IMG_5017_zpsrwynocfl.jpg  

 

Yep, totally seeing the words "about" and "turns" right here in the first words of the first full paragraph...

Oh, wait, no I don't. 

 

I guess this game is like politics and religion. People are going to read and interpret it to the way the want to even if the empirical evidence goes against that deeply held belief, and in light of that empirical evidence, people will still not change that deeply held belief.  

 

For the record, a turn is part of the Round, it does not "overlap" them. Once everyone has had a turn (the initiative slots), the Round is over, and a new Round begins.  Yes, a Round could last up to minute or longer, or even shorter; but it is not "about" anything. It is precisely how long GM needs them to be. The actual length of time is not usually that important. 

To say something is "about" this long has a different meaning than saying something "can" be up to that long.

But for the record the word "about" is not used nor implied.  

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Bravo! You know what a synonym is!!!

Now we just need to get you to quit exchanging the word "is" for the word "can".

Saying a round IS around/roughly a minute suggests that it is close to a full minute, which the CRB is not saying or implying.

Saying that a a round CAN represent around/roughly up to a minute suggests that the time can be anywhere from a few seconds to a minute or even more. "It should last long enough to move to a new location and perform an important action."

But I'm sure you won't agree and will still say a round IS around a minute.

Peace out. This dead Tauntuan IS beaten enough.

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Saying a round IS around/roughly a minute suggests that it is close to a full minute, which the CRB is not saying or implying.

 

It's saying and implying exactly that.  Otherwise they would have rephrased it to give a range, say, "anywhere from a few seconds to a minute".  It specifically uses one example of a time interval and does not use any another.  So if you think it's not "about a minute" or "roughly a minute", then you're just making it up.

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So, I have a rule set that I used, it's a little out of date now as the group that leaned toward that style of play is no longer the same group I'm running for now. 

 

Personally, I'm with Maelora, that the game is really better for a narrative than it is to be jumping styles, but as some groups enjoy different parts of Star Wars in different ways, I made this and ran it successfully for quite some time before the group dynamic changed.

 

Using X-Wing Miniatures in your Star Wars RPG 

This is amazing ! Greeeaaat work ! Thanks AAA LOT !

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First 2 rounds of combat in Star Wars.  

 

About 45 seconds for the SD to chase down the CR90 and nail them and explosions stopping when 3PO talks about the reactor.

 

First exchange of fire during the breach, about 35 seconds to clear the first hall.

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Saying a round IS around/roughly a minute suggests that it is close to a full minute, which the CRB is not saying or implying.

 

It's saying and implying exactly that.  Otherwise they would have rephrased it to give a range, say, "anywhere from a few seconds to a minute".  It specifically uses one example of a time interval and does not use any another.  So if you think it's not "about a minute" or "roughly a minute", then you're just making it up.

Not to get into a huge debate over this, but... in the same sentance it compares a round to 1 minute it clarifies that the exact time is deliberately not specified. Probably for the very reason this discussion took place.

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I've been using X-Wing minis and movement templates with the RPG, using more or less the standard RPG rules. I like the abstract grid-less system for fights on the ground, but I find "imagining" and keeping track of range bands between multiple moving objects in the vastness of space virtually impossible to do. I like the idea of just using the minis just to approximate positioning, and would definitely consider using that system, but the other aspect of ship combat in the RPG that makes no sense to me is the pilot needing to spend a maneuver for the ship to move. What happens if he or she doesn't?

So, what I do is use the movement templates to signify movement at the equivalent speed, and the ship only moves straight forward at that speed unless the pilot uses a maneuver to steer, in which case he or she can choose to use a bank or hard turn template of the corresponding speed. For speeds greater than those represented by X-Wing's maneuver templates, I simply add two templates together. Otherwise, the RPG rules remain intact, but everything is much easier to calculate and combat doesn't get bogged down by trying to figure out who's within range of whom when more than two ships are involved.

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Question for Benroe (since you're doing it).

 

How do you handle turn order and initiative when it comes to ship movement?

 

Do you have a movement phase for all of the craft so that they move at the same time or are you moving each craft separately as the pilot's initiative sequence comes into play?

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We've been moving each craft on its pilot's initiative, which I believe conforms to the typical rules of the game, but the idea of having the ships all move simultaneously at the bottom of initiative now has me intrigued. That seems much less abusable in a game where the players effectively get to choose their turn order.

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 I like the idea of just using the minis just to approximate positioning, and would definitely consider using that system, but the other aspect of ship combat in the RPG that makes no sense to me is the pilot needing to spend a maneuver for the ship to move. What happens if he or she doesn't?

You're always moving (unless you choose to be stationary).  You use a Maneuver to change range bands.

Edited by 2P51

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We've been moving each craft on its pilot's initiative, which I believe conforms to the typical rules of the game, but the idea of having the ships all move simultaneously at the bottom of initiative now has me intrigued. That seems much less abusable in a game where the players effectively get to choose their turn order.

 

That's instinctively how I thought I would also handle this if I were to adapt X-Wing minis/rules to space combat.  It seems simpler and stays true to the SW RPG rules, but it can lead to some very weird turn of events.  It sounds like it stays true to a very cinematic story telling, that we're trying to capture with the RPG in general.

 

The other option of inserting a "movement" phase may be more true to life in the fact that everything in real life does happen "at the same time," but we don't really model that well in RPG's anyways.

 

If you to play around with this other "simultaneous movement" option, let us know how it works/ or doesn't work for you.

 

 

And 2P51.  I'd recommend that you review the original post (OP).  You're comment is WAY off topic.  I can forgive you the confusion, though, because a lot of people have been trying to thread jack this discussion.

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The reason that 2P51 is drifting off topic is because, the quest is to figure out how to incorporate X-Wing minis & rules into the Star Wars Role Playing Game (SW RPG) space combat.

 

Since range bands aren't used in the X-Wing game and the X-Wing game has unique protocols for handling movement & distance, dropping a reference back to the SW RPG rules seems counter productive to this topic.

 

 

It may also just be my opinion, but the SW RPG rules are actually pretty easy to follow.  Heck they're practically identical to the narrative combat system, which makes adapting and learning those rules relatively easy.

 

As a point of example, someone started a thread about altering the Advanced Targeting Array.  I read the first post, figured out the premise, realized that I disagreed with the premise, and walked away quietly and (until now) haven't said a word about it.

 

However, this particular topic has been plagued by a lot of people injecting desultory and unhelpful comments.  I've tried to be patient and sort through the clutter, but I'm also interested deeply with this particular subject.

 

 

 

<Quote>

 

Did somebody incorporate the FFG miniature game X-Wing into a session of Edge of the Empire? My friend at whoms house we usually play has a huge collection of the minis. The characters took the Krayt Fang for which they want to manipulate the transponder now. So we could place the mini of the Millenium Falcon on the table for visuals. But my take is that the players stumble into an AoR style adventure and one player pilots the YT-1300 and the other players pilot some X-Wings for example. That would be around the suggested 100 points. I could throw together a 100 point imperial fleet and battle it out.

 

But one of the players is an accomlished pilot and pilots the YT-1300. What would be appropiate for the skill sets from EotE to translate into X-Wing? What do you consider good enhancements or do you suggest some other cards from the game. I would like it that the players get X-Wing points for their RPG skills with which the can buy certain cards from a pool of cards. Something along those lines...

 

Any ideas?

 

Thanks for any help.

 

So for your consideration, consider the original post which follows:

 

<End Quote>

 

And yes, I miss the good old days when I could embed html into forum threads.

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