Snipe + Howlrunner + Flight Controllers (Saber Squadron) Discussion

[DiabloAzul 2,636]

The former, of course.

[Rheinlander 53]

Ah, I found the thread ^^

Well I think FC boosts Snipe since it's an attack

Edit: ok, after re-reading the FC card I'm not so sure anymore...

It specifically says "increase the anti-squadron armament" and since Snipe on E-Wings is not equal to their AS armament I see the problem/discussion.

Edited December 17, 2016 by Rheinlander

[FourDogsInaHorseSuit 1,486]

Flight controllers doesn't work with snipe because the value it changes is replaced by the value of snipe. As far as I'm concerned you have to apply flight controllers immediately when activating the squadron.

As for howlrunner, she applies to any shot with an attack pool. Easy call that she applies.

As for range: snipe is an attack, so you have to use the rules for attacking which only account for the closest two points. If snipe didn't have the magic word 'attack' in its description and we're simply some other effect then I would say you could when it was on the 1/2 line. But it doesn't stop you can't.

...I say with authority, having only read the first two and last two pages of the thread.

Edited December 17, 2016 by FourDogsInaHorseSuit

[Madaghmire 7,276]

For what its worth fourdog, I agree with everything you said until the snipe range, but I'll argue that in the appropriate thread.

[BergerFett 708]

and cheaper than normal INTs.... im so happy

[JgzMan 401]

Ah, I found the thread ^^

Well I think FC boosts Snipe since it's an attack

Edit: ok, after re-reading the FC card I'm not so sure anymore...

It specifically says "increase the anti-squadron armament" and since Snipe on E-Wings is not equal to their AS armament I see the problem/discussion.

 

 

Snipe X. (You can attack squadrons at distance 2 with an anti-squadron armament of X blue dice. This attack ignores the Counter keyword.)

 

Snipe uses an anti-squadron armament. Is it "the squadrons" armament? It better be, or else what is it firing?

[Drasnighta 26,832]

 

Ah, I found the thread ^^

Well I think FC boosts Snipe since it's an attack

Edit: ok, after re-reading the FC card I'm not so sure anymore...

It specifically says "increase the anti-squadron armament" and since Snipe on E-Wings is not equal to their AS armament I see the problem/discussion.

 

 

Snipe X. (You can attack squadrons at distance 2 with an anti-squadron armament of X blue dice. This attack ignores the Counter keyword.)

 

Snipe uses an anti-squadron armament. Is it "the squadrons" armament? It better be, or else what is it firing?

 

 

A set number of dice given under the auspices of the Snipe Rule, rather than the Squadorn's Anti-Squadron Armament, which is printed on its Card in the little box set aside for "This Squadron's Anti-Squadron Armament."

[GalacticFist 202]

Snipe says you attack with "an" anti-squadron armament, and FCs state it adds one blue die to "the" anti-squadron armament. So you're saying the "an" anti-squadron armament is not necessarily the same as "the" anti-squadron armament?

[Drasnighta 26,832]

Snipe says you attack with "an" anti-squadron armament, and FCs state it adds one blue die to "the" anti-squadron armament. So you're saying the "an" anti-squadron armament is not necessarily the same as "the" anti-squadron armament?

 

That appears to be the core contention to agreement, Yes.

 

 

 

I do not necessarily agree.  I just point out the contention.

[Green Knight 9,746]

If snipe is a 'fixed', unmodifiable value, then nothing could alter it, stuff like Howl included?

Or what's the argument that Howl applies, but fc not?

[DiabloAzul 2,636]

I don't think anybody is arguing that Snipe is a fixed or unmodifiable value.

Only that FC modifies a different value (one that is subsequently ignored by Snipe).

[Drasnighta 26,832]

Howlrunner adds to your Pool.   So, it has timing like Ackbar.

 

Snipe is the equivalent of a battery armament change in timing, instead.

 

 

 

and heaven forbid, we havn't seen enough of those differences, have we?  

[Green Knight 9,746]

Ok, so there is a distinction. But I'm not sure I fully understand why FC has to be excluded. I still feel that anti-squadron is the same as anti-squadron.

But thanks for summing it up for me.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

Ok, so there is a distinction. But I'm not sure I fully understand why FC has to be excluded. I still feel that anti-squadron is the same as anti-squadron.

But thanks for summing it up for me.

 

 

No worries.

 

Like I said, its a real nitpick on wording, and thus, timing...

 

And it is, at thev ery least, a legitimate nitpick...  "An" and "The"...    

 

 I, myself, I'm not decided either direction...  (I mean, I've made a call where I had to make a call....)  But it is a small distinction.

[Sygnetix 140]

I didn't scroll through 9 pages but my initial interpretation was a little different.

Snipe 4: You can attack squadrons at distance 2 with an anti-squadron armament of 4 blue dice. This attack ignores the Counter keyword.

Meaning for purposes of targeting, you can use an attack that is functionally like AN anti-squadron armament.

 

Otherwise, why wouldn't it be worded like this:

Snipe 4: You can attack squadrons at distance 2 with your/this units/this squadrons/the anti-squadron armament. This attack ignores the Counter keyword.

 

I think this is going to turn out to be the Demolish/Engine Tech discussion all over again and more than likely will require FFG intervention to answer decisively.

And I'm an Imperial player....

Edited December 23, 2016 by Sygnetix

[Vineheart01 6,403]

Its not saying attack with your usual armaments because not everyone has full power with snipe as they do normally.

 

Generic Ewings have Snipe3, but have 4Blue at regular range. Corran has Snipe4, but the generics do not.

[Warlord Zepnick 324]

Ah, I found the thread ^^

Well I think FC boosts Snipe since it's an attack

Edit: ok, after re-reading the FC card I'm not so sure anymore...

It specifically says "increase the anti-squadron armament" and since Snipe on E-Wings is not equal to their AS armament I see the problem/discussion.

Right because Snipe was not in existence before or contemporaneous with Flight Controllers. The former came after the latter.

[Warlord Zepnick 324]

Flight controllers doesn't work with snipe because the value it changes is replaced by the value of snipe. As far as I'm concerned you have to apply flight controllers immediately when activating the squadron.

As for howlrunner, she applies to any shot with an attack pool. Easy call that she applies.

As for range: snipe is an attack, so you have to use the rules for attacking which only account for the closest two points. If snipe didn't have the magic word 'attack' in its description and we're simply some other effect then I would say you could when it was on the 1/2 line. But it doesn't stop you can't.

...I say with authority, having only read the first two and last two pages of the thread.

It's simply semantics.

 

There is no difference between the FC ability and Howlrunner's ability, other than wording.

 

With Howlrunner, "you may add one blue dice to your attack pool," but only if you are attacking a squadron.

 

What do squadrons use to attack other squadrons? THEIR ANTI-SQUADRON ARMAMENT

 

Flight controllers does the same exact thing, but the card is worded differently.

 

So, now that we have established that both Howlrunner and FC modify your (wait for it) anti-squadron armament, it's time to look at Snipe to end this once and for all.

 

Snipe:

 

"You can attack a squadron at distance 2 with an anti-squadron armament of x blue dice."

 

FC modifies Snipe and base anti-armament separately.

 

It doesn't take mental gymnastics, or that BS "an" v. "the" argument, to come to this conclusion.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Warlord Zepnick

[Drasnighta 26,832]

 

Flight controllers doesn't work with snipe because the value it changes is replaced by the value of snipe. As far as I'm concerned you have to apply flight controllers immediately when activating the squadron.

As for howlrunner, she applies to any shot with an attack pool. Easy call that she applies.

As for range: snipe is an attack, so you have to use the rules for attacking which only account for the closest two points. If snipe didn't have the magic word 'attack' in its description and we're simply some other effect then I would say you could when it was on the 1/2 line. But it doesn't stop you can't.

...I say with authority, having only read the first two and last two pages of the thread.

It's simply semantics.

 

There is no difference between the FC ability and Howlrunner's ability, other than wording.

 

With Howlrunner, "you may add one blue dice to your attack pool," but only if you are attacking a squadron.

 

What do squadrons use to attack other squadrons? THEIR ANTI-SQUADRON ARMAMENT

 

Flight controllers does the same exact thing, but the card is worded differently.

 

So, now that we have established that both Howlrunner and FC modify your (wait for it) anti-squadron armament, it's time to look at Snipe to end this once and for all.

 

Snipe:

 

"You can attack a squadron at distance 2 with an anti-squadron armament of x blue dice."

 

It doesn't take mental gymnastics, or that BS "an" v. "the" argument, to come to this conclusion.

 

 

 

You are Incorrect.

 

Howlrunner adds a Die To the Attack Pool.

 

The Attack Pool is formed after your Anti-Squadron Armamaent is Gathered, and Thrown....

 

 

 

 

 

The Difference between Howlrunner and Flight Controllers, is the same difference as Admiral Ackbar and Enhanced Armaments...

 

One tells you to change the number thats printed on the card...  The Other tells you to add Dice afterward.

 

This is why Enhanced Armament will help you when your Corvette has a Side Arc Shot that's Obstructed at Long Range..... 

...  But Admiral Ackbar Won't....

 

 

 

Howlrunner, and Flight Controllers simply do not add things at the same time.

 

 

 

 

EDIT FOR FUNSIES:  

 

And I Swear to the Gods and Goddesses above and Below...  I have had  that Argument (Battery Armament vs Attack Pool) with Lyraeus since seemingly the beginning of the Armada Rules Forum....   AND I STAND NOW WHERE HE DOES NOT!

Edited December 23, 2016 by Drasnighta

[Warlord Zepnick 324]

 

 

Flight controllers doesn't work with snipe because the value it changes is replaced by the value of snipe. As far as I'm concerned you have to apply flight controllers immediately when activating the squadron.

As for howlrunner, she applies to any shot with an attack pool. Easy call that she applies.

As for range: snipe is an attack, so you have to use the rules for attacking which only account for the closest two points. If snipe didn't have the magic word 'attack' in its description and we're simply some other effect then I would say you could when it was on the 1/2 line. But it doesn't stop you can't.

...I say with authority, having only read the first two and last two pages of the thread.

It's simply semantics.

 

There is no difference between the FC ability and Howlrunner's ability, other than wording.

 

With Howlrunner, "you may add one blue dice to your attack pool," but only if you are attacking a squadron.

 

What do squadrons use to attack other squadrons? THEIR ANTI-SQUADRON ARMAMENT

 

Flight controllers does the same exact thing, but the card is worded differently.

 

So, now that we have established that both Howlrunner and FC modify your (wait for it) anti-squadron armament, it's time to look at Snipe to end this once and for all.

 

Snipe:

 

"You can attack a squadron at distance 2 with an anti-squadron armament of x blue dice."

 

It doesn't take mental gymnastics, or that BS "an" v. "the" argument, to come to this conclusion.

 

 

 

You are Incorrect.

 

Howlrunner adds a Die To the Attack Pool.

 

The Attack Pool is formed after your Anti-Squadron Armamaent is Gathered, and Thrown....

 

 

 

 

 

The Difference between Howlrunner and Flight Controllers, is the same difference as Admiral Ackbar and Enhanced Armaments...

 

One tells you to change the number thats printed on the card...  The Other tells you to add Dice afterward.

 

This is why Enhanced Armament will help you when your Corvette has a Side Arc Shot that's Obstructed at Long Range..... 

...  But Admiral Ackbar Won't....

 

 

 

Howlrunner, and Flight Controllers simply do not add things at the same time.

 

Even so, your attack pool is comprised in part of your anti-squadron armament (page 2, rules reference)

 

An unmodified anti-squadron armament of 4 blue die is still your attack pool (Id.)

 

Edit: How you get there may be different, but the result is still the same.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Warlord Zepnick

[Drasnighta 26,832]

An unmodified anti-squadron armament of 4 blue die is still your attack pool (Id.)

 

Edit: How you get there may be different, but the result is still the same.

 

 

 

Because your "Anti Squadorn Armament" value is only used to form your attack pool.

 

Once you have formed your attack pool, all you have is your attack pool...

 

 

And when you have effects that can remove a Die before you roll the dice to form your attack pool (Obstacles), it does make a difference - Not in EVERY circumstance, but it DOES make that difference...

Edited December 23, 2016 by Drasnighta

[Warlord Zepnick 324]

 

 

 

 

Flight controllers doesn't work with snipe because the value it changes is replaced by the value of snipe. As far as I'm concerned you have to apply flight controllers immediately when activating the squadron.

As for howlrunner, she applies to any shot with an attack pool. Easy call that she applies.

As for range: snipe is an attack, so you have to use the rules for attacking which only account for the closest two points. If snipe didn't have the magic word 'attack' in its description and we're simply some other effect then I would say you could when it was on the 1/2 line. But it doesn't stop you can't.

...I say with authority, having only read the first two and last two pages of the thread.

It's simply semantics.

 

There is no difference between the FC ability and Howlrunner's ability, other than wording.

 

With Howlrunner, "you may add one blue dice to your attack pool," but only if you are attacking a squadron.

 

What do squadrons use to attack other squadrons? THEIR ANTI-SQUADRON ARMAMENT

 

Flight controllers does the same exact thing, but the card is worded differently.

 

So, now that we have established that both Howlrunner and FC modify your (wait for it) anti-squadron armament, it's time to look at Snipe to end this once and for all.

 

Snipe:

 

"You can attack a squadron at distance 2 with an anti-squadron armament of x blue dice."

 

It doesn't take mental gymnastics, or that BS "an" v. "the" argument, to come to this conclusion.

 

 

 

You are Incorrect.

 

Howlrunner adds a Die To the Attack Pool.

 

The Attack Pool is formed after your Anti-Squadron Armamaent is Gathered, and Thrown....

 

 

 

 

 

The Difference between Howlrunner and Flight Controllers, is the same difference as Admiral Ackbar and Enhanced Armaments...

 

One tells you to change the number thats printed on the card...  The Other tells you to add Dice afterward.

 

This is why Enhanced Armament will help you when your Corvette has a Side Arc Shot that's Obstructed at Long Range..... 

...  But Admiral Ackbar Won't....

 

 

 

Howlrunner, and Flight Controllers simply do not add things at the same time.

 

Even so, your attack pool is comprised in part of your anti-squadron armament (page 2, rules reference)

 

An unmodified anti-squadron armament of 4 blue die is still your attack pool (Id.)

 

Edit: How you get there may be different, but the result is still the same.

 

 

 

Because your "Anti Squadorn Armament" value is only used to form your attack pool.

 

Once you have formed your attack pool, all you have is your attack pool...

 

Exactly.

 

Which is why the attack pool of a Tie Fighter using Flight Controllers is 4.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

Yes.  The Attack Pool of a TIE Fighter using Flight Controllers is 4...

 

Because you Gathered 4 Dice and Rolled them.

 

 

 

 

 

The Attack Pool of a TIE Fighter using Howlrunner is 3....  Until Such time as you get to the "Resolve Attack Effects" phase and are iallowed to add her Dice...

 

THEN it becomes 4.

 

 

 

.,....\

 

 

 

The Rules make no distinction in the flow of the Attack Chart...   Now, in the end, as we said, and I agreed, they are fundamentally the same, but the rules we used to get there are different...

 

What I was saying was:

 

Now, let us take an identical set of Rules Circumstance, where it DOES matter:

 

I have a CR90 Corvette, shooting at an Obstructed Target, at Long Range....

 

My Battery Armament is 1 Red Die.  I pick up that Red die, and I must discard it due to the Obstruction.

 

When I form my attack Pool  (Which is the dice I have rolled).......  My Attack Pool is 0, and my attack is Cancelled....

 

 

,,,,

 

This sitatuon would also apply if you had a Squadron with only a Single Anti-Squadron Battery Die...  Such as, I don't know...  A TIE BOMBER!

 

Let us assume we have a TIE Bomber with Swarm...  Because, y'know, we have a B-Wing with Swarm, let us say that a future campaign gives it to us....

 

 

...  The TIE Bomber is shooting its anti-squadron Armament through a Debris Field.....  You have Flight COntrollers on this activation!  So you get to Add 1 Blue die to the Anti-Squadron Armament...   Now, before you roll (and form your attack pool), you must discard one of those Dice due to the Obstruction.....

 

You form an attack pool (of 1 die) and can shoot!

 

 

Now, if we take Flight Controllers off, and add Howlrunner!  (Who we can use, because Swarm...)....    We pick up our Anti-Squadron Battery of one Die....   and have to discard it...   We form an Attack pool of 0, and our attack Cancels..........  Before we have the Chance to add Howlrunner...

 

 

THIS STUFF MAKES A DIFFERENCE IN HOW YOU GET THERE, EVEN IF YOU ASSUME THE END RESULT IS THE SAME.  THERE ARE CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE IT *DOES* MAKE A DIFFERENCE, AND IF YOU SHORTCUT ON THE ASSUMPTION, YOU ARE DOING YOURSELF AND YOUR OPPONENT A DISSERVICE.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Drasnighta

[Warlord Zepnick 324]

Also, what source is telling you that squadrons attacking with Howlrunner's ability must add the 1 blue die after they roll their base anti-squadron armament?

[Drasnighta 26,832]

Also, what source is telling you that squadrons attacking with Howlrunner's ability must add the 1 blue die after they roll their base anti-squadron armament?

 

 

THAT one's Easy!

 

 

RRG, PAGE 7, MODIFY DICE

 

Modifying Dice

 

Dice can be modified in the following ways by game effects:

 

• Reroll: When a die is rerolled, the attacker picks it up and rolls it again. A die can be rerolled multiple times.

• Add: When a die is added, roll an unused die of the appropriate color into the attack pool.

 

 

 

Note, Howlrunner is "Add" Keyword

 

and

 

 

 

RRG, PAGE 5, EFFECT USE AND TIMING

 

Effect Use and Timing

 

Each effect in the game has a timing during which it can resolve. This timing is usually specified within the effect, though some effects use the more specific timing described in this section.

 

• An effect that modifies attack dice can only be resolved during the “Resolve Attacks Effects” step of an attack unless another timing is specified.