Snipe + Howlrunner + Flight Controllers (Saber Squadron) Discussion

[DerErlkoenig 975]

What do the rules say? "Inside"? Let's go with what the rules say for now, I think.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

• The lines on the ruler that divide two adjacent bands always count as part of the band closest to the bottom of the ruler.

 

The bands are adjacent, not inclusive.

 

◊ Beyond: If no portion of a hull zone, base, or token is inside a specified band or a band closer to the bottom of the ruler, that component is beyond the specified band.

 

 

 

If they bands were inclusive, the above rule would be redundant.  

Edited October 27, 2016 by Drasnighta

[DerErlkoenig 975]

"or a band closer to the bottom"

Oops, seems like you forgot that part. No big deal.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

"or a band closer to the bottom"

Oops, seems like you forgot that part. No big deal.

 

No, That's my point.

 

Why include "A band closer to the bottom" in beyond....  If they were all inclusive, as you are arguing?

[Undeadguy 5,749]

I gotta disagree with the bizarre consensus that was reached about whether or not one can Snipe at distance 1.

◊ At: If any portion of a hull zone, base, or token is

inside a specified band, that component is at that band.

So, if you are at distance 1, you're also at distance 2. Not sure why you can't Snipe while within, or at distance 1. It doesn't seem to exclude distance 1 that I can see.

If this were the case, why wouldn't they just say at range 1-2? The card clearly says range 2. And FFG seems to go through the effort to display what range/ranges an ability or effect can take place at. Also, what would stop me from saying Demo is at long range, even when you can measure close? Because if we change your quote "So, if you are at distance 1, you're also at distance 2." to this "So, if you are at [close range], you're also at [long range]." How do Evades work now? What color dice do I use at which range? This logic doesn't work so let me go in depth and tell me what I get wrong, because I myself may be biased in my interpretation.

 

It seems like you are adding another rule saying if you are at range 1, you are also at range 2, which clearly is not correct. No where is thie described in the rules, and this quote: "The lines on the ruler that divide two adjacent bands always count as part of the band closest to the bottom of the ruler."

 

refers literally to the color band on the range ruler that delineates each distance, and here is what the RRG says about the distance ruler: "The distance side is divided into five distance bands labeled “1” through “5.”"

 

5 Distance Bands. Not an overlapping distance band where 1 is a part of 2, or 3 is a part of 5. Each range is a distinct unit and is seperated by the color bands, which belong to the range closer to the short end of the ruler. So the band that delineates range 1 and 2 is a part of range 1.

 

 

To further refute your point, Snipe reads: "You can attack squadrons at range 2..." At is defined as: "If any portion of a hull zone, base, or token is inside a specified band, that component is at that band." The target must have a portion inside the specified band, which is 2, not 1, not 2 including 1, not 3 because 2 is inside range 3. It must be at range 2. We know we measure range from this: "To measure attack range to or from a squadron, measure to or from the closest point of the squadron’s base." Therefore, you measure closest to closest point, because you measure to or from the base. So if most the squad is at range 2 but a sliver is at range 1, you are still at range 1 and thus cannot use Snipe.

[DerErlkoenig 975]

Neither can I. It's one of those assumptions you don't really realize you're making until you run into a possible exception.

Found it, thanks to Undead. It's effectively in the Evade description in the RRG, which describes what happens "at long range", and "at medium range". So I was wrong.

How do Evades work now?

Most of what you wrote seemed to be misunderstanding what I was saying, or applying the inverse. This part, however, is what got to me, so I looked at the RRG, and it's made clear through the presentation of the Evade effect how "at" is supposed to work.

So thanks for mentioning that.

[Undeadguy 5,749]

Hey it happens to the best of us so don't sweat it. I forgot you can only spend 1 crit for Numbs ability and almost wrote a rant about that. **** I would have been embarrassed, but Dras set me straight

[DonKarnage 189]

Look at it another way...

What's the difference between WITHIN and AT?

As far as I can tell, it is only the requirement that to be WITHIN, no part of the whole model can be past the mark. So if you are WITHIN range 2 you are also AT range 2.

And if thats the case, if you are AT or WITHIN range 1, you are also both for range 2.

The other limits from the RRG are BEYOND and MIN-MAX and neither of them are referenced in the rules for snipe...

[Undeadguy 5,749]

Look at it another way...

What's the difference between WITHIN and AT?

As far as I can tell, it is only the requirement that to be WITHIN, no part of the whole model can be past the mark. So if you are WITHIN range 2 you are also AT range 2.

And if thats the case, if you are AT or WITHIN range 1, you are also both for range 2.

The other limits from the RRG are BEYOND and MIN-MAX and neither of them are referenced in the rules for snipe...

So if you are at close range, you are also within long range. I'm going to Evade your black dice even if your ships are touching. You are trying to use the Law of Transitive Properties: “If a is equal to b and b is equal to c, then a is equal to c.” which doesn't work. You may be At range 1, which can also be Within range 1. But if 1/2 my base is at range 1, and the other is at range 2, I am not within range 1 nor within range 2. 

 

Within and At are 2 different key words that are exclusive of each other. Check the RRG for their definitions, or reread what I already said.

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

And if thats the case, if you are AT or WITHIN range 1, you are also both for range 2.

A reasonable assumption, but incorrect. 

If you are at distance (not range) 1, you are not at distance 2.  The two distance bands are adjacent, but mutually exclusive.

 

[DerErlkoenig 975]

Yeah, I tried real hard, doesn't work.

[Undeadguy 5,749]

Honestly, it took me forever to figure out what you were trying to say, and it wasn't until I read the measurements did everything come together. 

[DonKarnage 189]

What rule makes them exclusive?

I think the intent might be to make them exclusive - things like squadron activation say "close-medium" range, implying that it must list both.

But that's not a defined item.

[DerErlkoenig 975]

The RRG listing for Evade makes it the most clear that I've seen.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

What rule makes them exclusive?

I think the intent might be to make them exclusive - things like squadron activation say "close-medium" range, implying that it must list both.

But that's not a defined item.

 

Actually, it is...  As a MIN-MAX term.

[DonKarnage 189]

Look at it another way...

What's the difference between WITHIN and AT?

As far as I can tell, it is only the requirement that to be WITHIN, no part of the whole model can be past the mark. So if you are WITHIN range 2 you are also AT range 2.

And if thats the case, if you are AT or WITHIN range 1, you are also both for range 2.

The other limits from the RRG are BEYOND and MIN-MAX and neither of them are referenced in the rules for snipe...

So if you are at close range, you are also within long range. I'm going to Evade your black dice even if your ships are touching. You are trying to use the Law of Transitive Properties: “If a is equal to b and b is equal to c, then a is equal to c.” which doesn't work. You may be At range 1, which can also be Within range 1. But if 1/2 my base is at range 1, and the other is at range 2, I am not within range 1 nor within range 2. 

 

Within and At are 2 different key words that are exclusive of each other. Check the RRG for their definitions, or reread what I already said.

Except that Evade specifically states that "At close range and distance 1, it has no effect". Similar for medium range.

Which means it can be used as an example supporting either argument.

[DonKarnage 189]

What rule makes them exclusive?

I think the intent might be to make them exclusive - things like squadron activation say "close-medium" range, implying that it must list both.

But that's not a defined item.

 

Actually, it is...  As a MIN-MAX term.

Exactly. The implication though of having a min-max term is that if something doesn't call out a minimum, there isn't one.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

 

 

What rule makes them exclusive?

I think the intent might be to make them exclusive - things like squadron activation say "close-medium" range, implying that it must list both.

But that's not a defined item.

 

Actually, it is...  As a MIN-MAX term.

Exactly. The implication though of having a min-max term is that if something doesn't call out a minimum, there isn't one.

 

The other side of that is, if it doesn't call out the other band, then it doesn't count.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

Let us hit what we have (for the most part) worked out...  With some Hypotheticals:

 

 

If you had a Card that said:

At Long Range, Use this Effect

 

What do you think that means?

Does that mean if you are are Long Range or Closer?  Or simply within the Long Range Band of the Ruler?

 

If you believe it is Long Range or Closer, what is the very point of a card (which we have many examples of), that says:

 

At Close-Long Range, Use this Effect

 

...

 

One distinction makes whole sections of the rule book not only Redundant, but Superfluous.

 

The other distinction sets the whole rule book to be Valid in its interpretation.

 

...

 

I am sorry.  Perhaps I am hard Headed...  But given those two distinctions, I am taking the one that doesn't involve me selectively sticking my fingers in my ears and going 'lalalalala' with my eyes clamped shut while I am reading sections of the Rulebook....  

[DerErlkoenig 975]

What rule makes them exclusive?

I think the intent might be to make them exclusive - things like squadron activation say "close-medium" range, implying that it must list both.

But that's not a defined item.

 

Actually, it is...  As a MIN-MAX term.

Exactly. The implication though of having a min-max term is that if something doesn't call out a minimum, there isn't one.

That's not illogical. It's just not correct in this case.

At long range you can Evade to cancel a die. At medium range you can Evade to reroll one die.

But since "at medium" is "at long" then just go ahead and cancel the die wherever you are in medium range, because you are still "at long" too.

That's where it leaves speculation for me, because the above is obviously not correct.

[DonKarnage 189]

If this were clear, we wouldn't get to have this debate and we'd have to do actual work... =)

[Democratus 1,698]

That would be true in a world where people only debated things that weren't clear.

[DerErlkoenig 975]

Yeah, unfortunately that's not accurate. Plenty of things have been argued to death that are actually clear. I'll agree that this isn't perfectly clear, but there is enough information.

[DonKarnage 189]

What rule makes them exclusive?

I think the intent might be to make them exclusive - things like squadron activation say "close-medium" range, implying that it must list both.

But that's not a defined item.

 

Actually, it is...  As a MIN-MAX term.

Exactly. The implication though of having a min-max term is that if something doesn't call out a minimum, there isn't one.

That's not illogical. It's just not correct in this case.

At long range you can Evade to cancel a die. At medium range you can Evade to reroll one die.

But since "at medium" is "at long" then just go ahead and cancel the die wherever you are in medium range, because you are still "at long" too.

That's where it leaves speculation for me, because the above is obviously not correct.

Like I mentioned before, Evade is a poor example because it specifies each band and provides a rule for that band (that would override the other band).

[DonKarnage 189]

Let us hit what we have (for the most part) worked out...  With some Hypotheticals:

 

 

If you had a Card that said:At Long Range, Use this Effect

 

What do you think that means?

Does that mean if you are are Long Range or Closer?  Or simply within the Long Range Band of the Ruler?

 

If you believe it is Long Range or Closer, what is the very point of a card (which we have many examples of), that says:

 

At Close-Long Range, Use this Effect

 

...

 

One distinction makes whole sections of the rule book not only Redundant, but Superfluous.

 

The other distinction sets the whole rule book to be Valid in its interpretation.

 

...

 

I am sorry.  Perhaps I am hard Headed...  But given those two distinctions, I am taking the one that doesn't involve me selectively sticking my fingers in my ears and going 'lalalalala' with my eyes clamped shut while I am reading sections of the Rulebook....  

I agree with you. It's just that the rules imply one thing and say another... easy to fix.