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Drasnighta

Snipe + Howlrunner + Flight Controllers (Saber Squadron) Discussion

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Since I was already asked this in a PM........

 

 

My Thoughts....

 


Flight Controllers:

The anti-squadron armament of each squadron that you activate is increased by 1 blue die until the end of its activation."

 

 

Howlrunner

 

"While another friendly squadron with Swarm at distance 1 is attacking a squadron, it may add 1 blue die to its attack pool."

 

 

Snipe:

 

swm25-saber-squadron.png



SO

 

Precedent is there that both Howlrunner and Flight Controllers will work with Snipe...

 

Howlrunner is a No-brainer to add.  Its a Modify Dice effect.  You start with 4 Dice, and then add one after they have been rolled into an attack pool.  Simple.  Works.

 

 

Flight Controllers takes a little Mental Gymnastics to work, and works only under the assumption that Flight controllers is adding a blanket +1 to "all" Anti-Squadron Armaments...    That Snipe is effectively a second Anti-Squadron Armament Box...

 

So that's more questionable...  But on the face of it...  I'd try not to Argue too much for or against it right now....  They're Interceptors without Counter, and won't live much beyond their Alpha Strike - Which is exactly what happens with Interceptors right now.

 

 

 

Feel Free to (Civilly) Discuss.

 

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I'm tentatively going to say it works with Flight Controllers, simply because they both have the same key words "anti squadron armament"

 

It will 100% work with Howlrunner, because it works with counter and it is an attack. 

 

Regardless, 4-6 dice at range 2 is amazing.

 

^ Basically this.

 

Snipe is worded "anti-squadron armament" for a reason.

 

Looks like they want to boost regular dice rolling, making it a more desirable alternative they Jumpin Mauler Mithel (my speculation).

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As I argued against this in the other thread :)

 

I agree it will work with Howlrunner due to the Attack pool Modification but I don't think Flight Controllers will work as the keyword is "Snipe 4" which specifies 4 AS dice and doesn't reference the AS armament box which is what is being modified.

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As I argued against this in the other thread :)

 

I agree it will work with Howlrunner due to the Attack pool Modification but I don't think Flight Controllers will work as the keyword is "Snipe 4" which specifies 4 AS dice and doesn't reference the AS armament box which is what is being modified.

 

On the contrary: snipe specifically names it as anti-squadron armament, the exact working used by FC.

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As I argued against this in the other thread :)

 

I agree it will work with Howlrunner due to the Attack pool Modification but I don't think Flight Controllers will work as the keyword is "Snipe 4" which specifies 4 AS dice and doesn't reference the AS armament box which is what is being modified.

 

On the contrary: snipe specifically names it as anti-squadron armament, the exact working used by FC.

 

I think the wording in Snipe refers to anti-squadron armament as opposed to anti-ship armament and not the AS armament of the card. It doesn't refer to the AS armament of the card for the very good reason that it (Snipe 4) is defining the attack as specifically 4 AS blue dice. Otherwise they could have made the card a lot simpler and removed the 4 from Snipe and the reference to specifically 4 dice. I also expect we might see Snipe 3 or Snipe 5. Similar keyword structure has been use din other games like Magic.

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As I argued against this in the other thread :)

 

I agree it will work with Howlrunner due to the Attack pool Modification but I don't think Flight Controllers will work as the keyword is "Snipe 4" which specifies 4 AS dice and doesn't reference the AS armament box which is what is being modified.

 

On the contrary: snipe specifically names it as anti-squadron armament, the exact working used by FC.

 

I think the wording in Snipe refers to anti-squadron armament as opposed to anti-ship armament and not the AS armament of the card. It doesn't refer to the AS armament of the card for the very good reason that it (Snipe 4) is defining the attack as specifically 4 AS blue dice. Otherwise they could have made the card a lot simpler and removed the 4 from Snipe and the reference to specifically 4 dice. I also expect we might see Snipe 3 or Snipe 5. Similar keyword structure has been use din other games like Magic.

 

 

Does not refer to the anti-squadron armament?

 

It SPECIFICALLY refers to the anti-squadron armament, using the same term as the RRG.

 

This is not a coincidence.

 

Either FC works on both "types" of anti-squadron armament - or neither.

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Ill be the first to admit im no rules expert ;

 

But wouldn't Snipe interact the same way as Counter would with Flight controller? Both use anti-squadron armament of X in their description but what I can gather FC doesn't affect Counter (correct me if im wrong but a quick search indicated it didn't), why would it affect snipe.

 

Counter X. (After a squadron performs a non-Counter attack against you, you may attack that squadron with an anti-squadron armament of X blue dice, even if you are destroyed.)

 

From FAQ

Q: When a squadron with counter performs its counter attack, can it resolve abilities that affect an attack?
A: Yes. A counter attack functions just like a normal attack except that the dice gathered for the attack are indicated by the squadron’s counter value instead of its anti-squadron armament. They can be affected by the swarm keyword, Howlrunner’s ability, etc.

 

Snipe has a value just like counter and both use the wording anti-squadron armament in the description

 

From Drasnighta in another rules thread:

And even if you lacked the restriction of not Countering a Counter Attack, you still would not get the effect, as the value for counter is set (with that modifier), and is unrelated to Anti-Squadron Armament...

 

Why would Snipe interact different? (truly curious). Would you feel different if a squadron had a anti-squadron armament of 4 but a snipe of 3? Is that fact that they are the same (4/4) skewing how we view the interaction?

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The difference is, Counter does not happen During your Activation.

 

Flight Controllers is boosting the Anti Squadron Armament Until the End of Your Activation.

 

If the Enemy is attacking you, to make you Eligable for Counter...  It cannot be your Activation, and thus, your Activation must have been over beforehand.

 

 

 

 

Additionally:  Nice Quote from me, as well...  I think, given the circumstances, I'd revisit that if I had to - but I don't have to, because there's still no way to counter a counter to make it relevant :D

 

I will admit when I'm wrong...  And I think I might be wrong on that initial stance...  but I am unsure...

Edited by Drasnighta

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More for discussion than to argue / prove either way, but wouldn't;

 

Snipe X be treated the same as Counter X (regardless of if its your activation) based on we have a precedent of FFG stating with counter that the Counter value (X) supersedes your Base anti-squadron armament when using that "ability" for lack of a better word.

 

" ... dice gathered for the attack are indicated by the squadron’s counter value instead of its anti-squadron armament"

 

FC is quite clear it is adding to your base anti-squadron armament (ASA), but again snipe provides a Value indicating it is in essence different (albeit in this case on saber the same ASA 4/ Snipe 4) than the squadrons base ASA. if we took a theoretical squadron, of a base 4 ASA and a Snipe 3, it would be more clear they are different, would we still feel it affected the snipe considering the way they address Counter?

 

Again just theorizing out loud

 

Edit: Spelling & clearity

Edited by GrossRouge

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No worries, and I get what you're puttin' down....

 

Its just wether that counter value can thusly be modifeid...  because for the most part, the Counter is distinct to the Base value, and we have the impression come E-Wings that their Snipe will be distinct from their Base value, and the fact that Sabre is 4/4 is throwing things out...

 

That part of it, we do need some Guidance on...  Because there is wording both ways.

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More for discussion than to argue / prove either way, but wouldn't;

 

Snipe X be treated the same as Counter X (regardless of if its your activation) based on we have a precedent of FFG stating with counter that the Counter value (X) supersedes your Base anti-squadron armament when using that "ability" for lack of a better word.

 

" ... dice gathered for the attack are indicated by the squadron’s counter value instead of its anti-squadron armament"

 

FC is quite clear it is adding to your base anti-squadron armament (ASA), but again snipe provides a Value indicating it is in essence different (albeit in this case on saber the same ASA 4/ Snipe 4) than the squadrons base ASA. if we took a theoretical squadron, of a base 4 ASA and a Snipe 3, it would be more clear they are different, would we still feel it affected the snipe considering the way they address Counter?

 

Again just theorizing out loud

 

Edit: Spelling & clearity

How is FC clear?

Does it refer to 'base' value in any way?

No, it does not.

Stop inventing stuff not in the rules.

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More for discussion than to argue / prove either way, but wouldn't;

 Snipe X be treated the same as Counter X (regardless of if its your activation) based on we have a precedent of FFG stating with counter that the Counter value (X) supersedes your Base anti-squadron armament when using that "ability" for lack of a better word.

 

" ... dice gathered for the attack are indicated by the squadron’s counter value instead of its anti-squadron armament"

 

FC is quite clear it is adding to your base anti-squadron armament (ASA), but again snipe provides a Value indicating it is in essence different (albeit in this case on saber the same ASA 4/ Snipe 4) than the squadrons base ASA. if we took a theoretical squadron, of a base 4 ASA and a Snipe 3, it would be more clear they are different, would we still feel it affected the snipe considering the way they address Counter?

 

Again just theorizing out loud

 

Edit: Spelling & clearity

How is FC clear?

Does it refer to 'base' value in any way?

No, it does not.

Stop inventing stuff not in the rules.

Further speculation: why would FC not have said add one to your attack pool (like Howlrunner), but instead specified anti-squadron armament? Unless it was to make this distinction?

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Further speculation: why would FC not have said add one to your attack pool (like Howlrunner), but instead specified anti-squadron armament? Unless it was to make this distinction?

 

 

 

Because it lets Obstructed TIE Bombers still use their Anti-Squadron Armament.

Edited by Drasnighta

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How is FC clear?

Does it refer to 'base' value in any way?

No, it does not.

Stop inventing stuff not in the rules.

 

 

Green Knight;

 

I apologize if you feel i am trying to invent stuff in the rules, that was not my intent, I was solely using "base" as a way to distinguish the anti-squadron armament value in the top bar from any special rules one such as counter and now snipe. You are correct in that it is a term not used in the rules and solely by me to help differentiate between them.

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How is FC clear?

Does it refer to 'base' value in any way?

No, it does not.

Stop inventing stuff not in the rules.

 

 

Green Knight;

 

I apologize if you feel i am trying to invent stuff in the rules, that was not my intent, I was solely using "base" as a way to distinguish the anti-squadron armament value in the top bar from any special rules one such as counter and now snipe. You are correct in that it is a term not used in the rules and solely by me to help differentiate between them.

 

 

Absolutely no apology need(a)ed. 

 

I've been there too, trying to read stuff that's not there. I sometimes still do - but I try not to.

 

My point is this: whatever the designers may have intended, there is (IMO) only one way Snipe/FC interaction can be interpreted. The rules and the cards themselves support nothing else.

 

But it's been a good discussion. Better than most, in fact.

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One consideration that makes this a useful nitpicking rule discussion.

 

To get Howl within distance 1 of Saber, and distance 1 of other swarm units, and within distance 1 of an enemy, whilst saber is outside distance 1 of all enemies.... will take quite a lot of work.

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One consideration that makes this a useful nitpicking rule discussion.

 

To get Howl within distance 1 of Saber, and distance 1 of other swarm units, and within distance 1 of an enemy, whilst saber is outside distance 1 of all enemies.... will take quite a lot of work.

 

No doubt.

 

Intel doesn't help you directly, because even Heavy, you still need to shoot at Engaging Squadrons, and those at Distance 2 don't engage...

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So Snipe says you attack a squad at distance 2 of you. Meaning you only have between range 1 and 2 to choose a target? And you can't use Snipe on a squad at range 1 in an effort to avoid Counter.

 

Am I reading and thinking this correctly? Anyone else notice this distinction? 

Edited by Undeadguy

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