Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
acidReign

Why the Jumpmaster nerf is bad for x-wing (hear me out)

Recommended Posts

 

When are they nerfing Palp?

 

If you are going to ask for a nerf to the Palpatine crew card, which is essentially a 29 point ability, then I would kindly ask for a nerf to Manaroo because for 30 points, he can give any single ship on the board a focus and target lock. For 31 points, he can give every single mindlinked ship a focus token and then at the start of the combat phase, give another ship a focus and target lock and still have a focus him/herself.

 

Oh and the mindlinked ship, thanks to Manaroo, still has full use of its actions and dial, without stress.

 

So what is worse, a single change of a dice in a ship that struggles to join in to combat due to a horrendous dial, or a 360 turret ship that can provide three to four ships with a focus and one other ship another focus and a target lock, for simply not bumping in its movement phase, for 1 or 2 points more?

 

 

 

Portrait of Manaroo Attanni-mindlink.png

 

 

Besides, they just finish the raider reprint, buffed TLTs for the K-Wing reprint. Now guess when the Palpatine nerf is coming. SCNR, I am just the cynical type ^_^

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that ffg fully intended the previous faq to "fix" triple scouts by removing the agromech interaction.

 

The fact that it didn't (and torpscouts remained perfectly viable with a different astromech) was most likely unanticipated and therefore required a subsequent more severe fix.

 

I'll agree that the timing of the faq is rather unfortunate and that it may have been better post-dated to come into effect after any major events rather than before, but I do believe that people are reading too much into it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think they want a more healthy meta at world. It wouldn't look good if a huge percentage of the total ships are Jumpmasters, it also wouldn't look good if only 10% of participants bring rebels because its such a huge risk. Not saying it would have looked like that, but the system open coverage and statistics has been rather frustrating for them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think they want a more healthy meta at world. It wouldn't look good if a huge percentage of the total ships are Jumpmasters, it also wouldn't look good if only 10% of participants bring rebels because its such a huge risk. Not saying it would have looked like that, but the system open coverage and statistics has been rather frustrating for them.

 

And regionals.  It wasn't as if they would have a chance between the two to adjust things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This FAQ Errata is a fairly big departure for FFG. While they have tinkered round the edges before, this is a whole new level in actually editing cards.

Obviously the fact that they have acted shows they realise the problem. Whilst the solution to the triple U-Boat problem is a little sudden, I think it is better than the GW of yesteryear who used to stick their fingers in their ears and go "lalala" whenever someone mentioned game balance. At best you had to wait years for a new codex to fix broken units.

You only have to look at the number of "How to fix XXX" threads to show that people feel the need for such intervention. In many cases, it is hard to avoid, particularly with ships that were designed several Waves ago with a different meta in mind. Does this show that X-wing has a problem as it grows and the number of potential interactions increases? Well perhaps but I would argue it is a good problem to have. It shows the game is growing and that people are buying new ships to keep matches interesting.

I think U-Boats were a side-effect of X-Wing's success. Whilst we would all prefer FFG to playtest such combos a little more thoroughly, I am am glad the game is thriving and I suspect we will see better in future as I am sure the designers will be keen to avoid the necessity of such errata in future.

Edited by Karhedron

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The change to the torpedo boats is positive, since nothing has warped the overall state of the game as badly as three Jumpmasters since the original Phantom. They pushed out the common counters to Imperial/Palpatine Aces, allowing those lists to disproportionally flourish, as well as seriously impacting other archetypes (low agility, low PS generics).

Neither Palpatine nor Manaroo has anywhere near as significant an effect on the game as a whole, and so a 'nerf' to them is completely unprecedented.

TLT's will not suddenly dominate as a result - they were never as dangerous as triple Jumpmasters even at their height, and there are more options available now for dealing with them.
I'm not entirely happy with the manner of the change, as it locks out any large ships in the future from using Deadeye (the problem with the Jumpmaster was the 'perfect storm' of upgrades, of which Deadeye was only one part), but I don't resent FFG for it as there was only so much they could really do.
 

I don't think anyone is going to be upset to see a wider variety at Worlds, and anyone worth their salt should be able to transition away from one of the most uninspired, unimaginative lists in the game quite easily - indeed, I expect the vast majority of attendees will be glad they are longer forced to account for it, and might now get to fly something that the Jumpmasters would have shut down.

 

And anyone claiming that it's a symptom of faction-bias or 'corporate interference' by Disney needs to take their tinfoil hat off.

Edited by MalusCalibur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think they want a more healthy meta at world. It wouldn't look good if a huge percentage of the total ships are Jumpmasters, it also wouldn't look good if only 10% of participants bring rebels because its such a huge risk. Not saying it would have looked like that, but the system open coverage and statistics has been rather frustrating for them.

 

 

 

I think U-Boats were a side-effect of X-Wing's success. Whilst we would all prefer FFG to playtest such combos a little more thoroughly, I am am glad the game is thriving and I suspect we will see better in future as I am sure the designers will be keen to avoid the necessity of such errata in future.

 

 

 

My I point you guys out to: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLY1HB8xDjh8GMTvKoe_m2ynfDpEh5ibJz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Errata is the 2nd to last line of defense, it was inevitable they would need it occasionally. 

 

They held off to see how the prior changes affected top level play, it wasn't enough so they pulled the keystone out of the build by limiting deadeye to small ships.  A simple and elegant solution.  Jumps aren't obsolete but they are much less synergistic and now many other builds can compete with them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I think they want a more healthy meta at world. It wouldn't look good if a huge percentage of the total ships are Jumpmasters, it also wouldn't look good if only 10% of participants bring rebels because its such a huge risk. Not saying it would have looked like that, but the system open coverage and statistics has been rather frustrating for them.

 

 

 

I think U-Boats were a side-effect of X-Wing's success. Whilst we would all prefer FFG to playtest such combos a little more thoroughly, I am am glad the game is thriving and I suspect we will see better in future as I am sure the designers will be keen to avoid the necessity of such errata in future.

 

 

 

My I point you guys out to: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLY1HB8xDjh8GMTvKoe_m2ynfDpEh5ibJz

 

Like I said, I don't think it would have looked like that, but FFG surely suffered a trauma from the system open statistics. Its also just singular games (when games that are being broadcast are usually picked to not be the annoying meta lists) from a single tournament in a certain region (that isn't europe, for example, where JM5Ks never lost popularity much) that has a rather insular meta. And then the tournament also isn't part of the Organized Play rotation, so its not quite clear how well its meta translates into worlds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now I'll admit I've never played against a list with 2-3 uboats in it.  I think I've only played against a single one once or twice.

 

But I think in general I rather face a super offensive list over a super defensive list.  So I really wish stuff like regen, palp, or other crazy damage mitgation techniques were nerfed instead.

 

I think they went a bit overboard with this nerf.  They should have just made deadeye unique, then you'd still have a use for a single uboat, just not multiple.  Also that prevents other small ships lists from popping up with multiple deadeye to be a new alpha strike menace.

And miss selling the next SwarmAlphaStrike "small base product" in large numbers?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tlt spam is a strong list, but it can be bullied by aces, burned down by alphastrikes and cracked open by swarms. I'm not worried by the prospect of its return. It will also chill the defender spam out a bit. 1 evade token and no AT aint worth much against four laser gatling guns :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

I think they want a more healthy meta at world. It wouldn't look good if a huge percentage of the total ships are Jumpmasters, it also wouldn't look good if only 10% of participants bring rebels because its such a huge risk. Not saying it would have looked like that, but the system open coverage and statistics has been rather frustrating for them.

 

 

 

I think U-Boats were a side-effect of X-Wing's success. Whilst we would all prefer FFG to playtest such combos a little more thoroughly, I am am glad the game is thriving and I suspect we will see better in future as I am sure the designers will be keen to avoid the necessity of such errata in future.

 

 

 

My I point you guys out to: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLY1HB8xDjh8GMTvKoe_m2ynfDpEh5ibJz

 

Like I said, I don't think it would have looked like that, but FFG surely suffered a trauma from the system open statistics. Its also just singular games (when games that are being broadcast are usually picked to not be the annoying meta lists) from a single tournament in a certain region (that isn't europe, for example, where JM5Ks never lost popularity much) that has a rather insular meta. And then the tournament also isn't part of the Organized Play rotation, so its not quite clear how well its meta translates into worlds.

 

 

German nationals,  Belgian Championships,Spanish National Championships,  … basically the later the year the better the adaption to the perfect storm and the less popular the scouts became. It certainly took the rebels some time to adapt, but they actually did and started to show up stronger and stronger with more diverse builds. Wave 9 would have added to that, now the meta is changing completely again, and rebels need again to adapt heavily. 

If anything was dominant in the last months it would be defenders and to a lesser extend palp aces. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All they needed to do was add "Limited" to Deadeye and it would be fine. I dont do tourneys but dont see a lot of 3 J5K as most people play the more casual options. Agree that Palp needs a range limit such as 1-2 or just 'When attacking' especially given tokened up Defenders that can push 3-4 hits clinically each attack. And i also wish they would slow down the release cycles. Too many new ships too quickly together in this last half of 16 we have already had Vets, Wave 9, HOR, W10 and the missing SKU. Too much!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All they needed to do was add "Limited" to Deadeye and it would be fine. I dont do tourneys but dont see a lot of 3 J5K as most people play the more casual options. Agree that Palp needs a range limit such as 1-2 or just 'When attacking' especially given tokened up Defenders that can push 3-4 hits clinically each attack. And i also wish they would slow down the release cycles. Too many new ships too quickly together in this last half of 16 we have already had Vets, Wave 9, HOR, W10 and the missing SKU. Too much!

 

Limited? so you could only attach 1 Deadeye to each of your 3 Jumpmasters. .... ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This FAQ Errata is a fairly big departure for FFG. While they have tinkered round the edges before, this is a whole new level in actually editing cards.

Obviously the fact that they have acted shows they realise the problem. Whilst the solution to the triple U-Boat problem is a little sudden, I think it is better than the GW of yesteryear who used to stick their fingers in their ears and go "lalala" whenever someone mentioned game balance. At best you had to wait years for a new codex to fix broken units.

You only have to look at the number of "How to fix XXX" threads to show that people feel the need for such intervention. In many cases, it is hard to avoid, particularly with ships that were designed several Waves ago with a different meta in mind. Does this show that X-wing has a problem as it grows and the number of potential interactions increases? Well perhaps but I would argue it is a good problem to have. It shows the game is growing and that people are buying new ships to keep matches interesting.

I think U-Boats were a side-effect of X-Wing's success. Whilst we would all prefer FFG to playtest such combos a little more thoroughly, I am am glad the game is thriving and I suspect we will see better in future as I am sure the designers will be keen to avoid the necessity of such errata in future.

 

It really isn't. Adding "Small ship only" isn't that much of a departure from adding "limited" to Tactician. Yes, the impact is a bit different, yes. But it isn't really that of a stretch from what they have already done. 

 

And I wish the criticism of the playtesting would stop. Unless you are a playtester, you can't really know what they were given to playtest. Deadlines are also a thing that exist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And I wish the criticism of the playtesting would stop. Unless you are a playtester, you can't really know what they were given to playtest. Deadlines are also a thing that exist.

Your point is valid in regard to criticism if the playtestERS. Criticism of the playtestING is largely warranted IMO. If the playtesters were not given to playtest a version of the JM5k that allowed them to pick up this combo, then isn't that also a flaw of the playtesting process set up by FFG?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you have never run a Playtest for a large wargame I don't think you can know the difficulty getting useful info back. Sometimes things will get overlooked because the meta is different at the time of testing than at release... People will say this ship is great because it deals with X which is dominating at the, but ignore other interactions because historically they have been poor options. Can you say ordnance has been particularly viable in the past? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Imho the faq of R4 was enough already to prevent to magic 4 autohits that came from Proton Torps + reroll + GC.

Seems that other players still had really big issues with u-boat lists.

Nerfing Deadeye is a bit over the top for my taste.

 

But well - there you have it!

Teethless Scouts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When are they nerfing Palp?

This did.

This will bring back the Stresshog. This will bring back Rebel Regen. Stress is bad for Aces, and Regening ships is really hard for two aces to deal with. If Heroes of the Resistance had been released in time, then this would have meant the new Poe would be everywhere. 

My guess is at worlds we will see Dengaroo, Palp Aces, Rebel Regen with Stress, and Ghosts. I think rebels will win.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...