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Why the Jumpmaster nerf is bad for x-wing (hear me out)

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Today's nerf of the contracted scout torpedo build is bad for x-wing. First off, what we saw today is something entirely new for the game of x-wing. This was not a FAQ, but a "patch". Very little rules clarifications were done, and the FAQ was used to specifically nerf the contracted scout, and biggs to a lesser degree. Why is this bad?

 

  1. It shows that x-wing has gotten "too big for its britches". As pointed out in an excellent scum and villainy podcast recently, the complexity of the game is ratcheting up with every product release. Every new wave means thousands of interactions that need to be tested. The conclusion is the game designers are unable to accurately QA and playtest their product to avoid a critical error. The stat line on the jumpmaster being the first, with potentially more critical errors introduced with each new wave.

    I do not fault the game designers here, it seems they have 1.5 FTEs working on their highest grossing product. FFG really should inve$t in a better QA and playtesting process to protect this valuable revenue stream. Perhaps even mathematical modeling and analysis of the game dynamics and interactions to find all possible untested combinations is worth developing. 
     
  2. If you accept that this was a patch and not a rules clarification FAQ, this is a poor way to roll out patches. Weeks before the premier event in x-wing, with regionals following closely behind, many players have been practicing in earnest for weeks if not months. Many of you cheer the death of the contracted scout, but what if you had played 50 games with your scout list, in anticipation of attending worlds in a few weeks? How would you feel? What would your opinion be of x-wing and the game in general?
     
  3. If FFG is going to roll out patches such as this, it should be on a regular schedule, perhaps yearly, and it should be announced in advance. Perhaps even the major decisions such as this should be made public before they are permanent? The triple scout or double scout + 1 list is not unbeatable, it would do little harm to let this exist a little longer in the meta. 
     
  4. The timing of this release is perhaps suspect. Going out on a limb a bit here, but why was this not announced in the summer FAQ? Clearly it has been in plans since then, as Alex Davy was on the record saying a "wave 9 hard counter to contract scouts was on the way". My guess is that FFG was not about to nerf the hottest selling SKU in their hottest game, without replacement product to be purchased. The implication being, many people bought 3 punishing one expansions, while FFG knew that the list would be nerfed once there was something else for us to buy. I think this is bad business and is shortsighted, if it is true. 

What are your thoughts? Am I wrong? 

 

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You are wrong.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

 

RUTHLESS.

 

 

I think it is fine, but ya the timing is a little odd. It's got to be really rough on those players who had been practicing for worlds with a Uboat.

 

 

My issue is why stop at Uboats? They had a perfect opportunity to also nerf Palp, Manaroo, Zuckuss, /x7, regen mechanics, TLT, stress stacking.... Actually, just take everything that has ever won anything, nerf it, and lets see where that gets us.

 

;)

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When is a good time? The first regional is the weekend after worlds IIRC. Then it goes directly back into worlds again.

3. Yearly doesnt really work for a game that has several releases a year. Wave 8 dropped in march, so its only been 7 months since then that theyre dropping the change. If theyve decided jumpmasters are unbalanced, you dont leave them in that state for another possibly 5 months.

4. They were giving it time to see how things settled out instead of kneejerk changing something thar could possibly have turned into nothing.

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I think its ultimately healthy for X-wing.  So what if triple scouts with deadeye are no longer viable?  That particular list single-handedly knocked PS2 generic ships right out of the (competitive) scene!  I think the number of players/owners with PS2 generics is far greater than the number of players/owners of triple jump masters...

 

I am only a little disappointed that they did not nerf Palpatine.  I won't go as far as calling for nerfs on everything, but like the phantom nerf, I think doing something to curb Palpatine will only have a positive effect on meta diversification.  

Edited by blade_mercurial

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My issue is why stop at Uboats? They had a perfect opportunity to also nerf Palp, Manaroo, Zuckuss, /x7, regen mechanics, TLT, stress stacking.... Actually, just take everything that has ever won anything, nerf it, and lets see where that gets us.

 

;)

Are we continnuing the PGS impersonation? :P. Dont forget Dash!

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When one build single handedly removes an entire faction from the competitive tables, you have to admit that it is bad for the game. How many rebel list can take on palp aces and Toro scouts? One needed to be nerfed. Palp aces has hard counters, like bombs with Sabine and feedback. The conscout was just a little OP for the game. If FFG didn't think so, they would have left it the same.

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4. I too am unaware that xwing is a licensed product and believe ffg are in total control of all aspects of its production and maintenance.

There's a marketing director at FFG who reports to a VP at the House of Mouse. (S)He told him/her this may be a strategic opportunity.

Edited by Rinzler in a Tie

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I think you are wrong (read: I disagree with you), but I do think your criticisms are still valid.

 

The timing is a little suspicious, but I think they were really worried about its impact on World's. Sure, quite a few competitors will now undeniably be pissed right off, and they have every right to be if they've been practicing that build for months. And though we saw in the Nationals series that U-boats can be dealt with, triple-JM5K lists definitely hit the worldwide meta like a damned wrecking ball. It pushed many previously-viable lists completely out of the competitive scene, and I think for the sake of Worlds, FFG made the decision they thought would ultimately be best for the scene as it is right now. I'm looking forward to seeing more diverse lists, and JM5Ks will definitely still be used (Dengaroo, anyone?), but they'll find a new niche.

 

However, this does set an unsettling precedent. FFG have been so good about not having major errata in their FAQs, the obvious exception being cloaking. Now, though, the precedent is set for numerous errata to come in the future (3 major errata, of which Biggs has previously been clarified in the opposite direction). That is what worries me: that the FAQ will become a confusing and insurmountable behemoth that is a pain to go through in official events.

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You are wrong.

Ok, the OP made a thought out post and asked for thoughts. Yes you gave your thoughts, but blanket statements like that do not contribute and honestly are pretty d*ckish

Thanks!

 

Achievement unlocked?

Did I? Where can I see the avalivle achievment. They are like Pokemon to me....gotta catch'em all!

Or maybe I an goofing off at work, and a customer came in and I didn't have time to finish my post?

You will never know. Hahahajaha

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Today's nerf of the contracted scout torpedo build is bad for x-wing. First off, what we saw today is something entirely new for the game of x-wing. This was not a FAQ, but a "patch". Very little rules clarifications were done, and the FAQ was used to specifically nerf the contracted scout, and biggs to a lesser degree. Why is this bad?

 

  • It shows that x-wing has gotten "too big for its britches". As pointed out in an excellent scum and villainy podcast recently, the complexity of the game is ratcheting up with every product release. Every new wave means thousands of interactions that need to be tested. The conclusion is the game designers are unable to accurately QA and playtest their product to avoid a critical error. The stat line on the jumpmaster being the first, with potentially more critical errors introduced with each new wave.

    I do not fault the game designers here, it seems they have 1.5 FTEs working on their highest grossing product. FFG really should inve$t in a better QA and playtesting process to protect this valuable revenue stream. Perhaps even mathematical modeling and analysis of the game dynamics and interactions to find all possible untested combinations is worth developing. 

     

  • If you accept that this was a patch and not a rules clarification FAQ, this is a poor way to roll out patches. Weeks before the premier event in x-wing, with regionals following closely behind, many players have been practicing in earnest for weeks if not months. Many of you cheer the death of the contracted scout, but what if you had played 50 games with your scout list, in anticipation of attending worlds in a few weeks? How would you feel? What would your opinion be of x-wing and the game in general?

     

  • If FFG is going to roll out patches such as this, it should be on a regular schedule, perhaps yearly, and it should be announced in advance. Perhaps even the major decisions such as this should be made public before they are permanent? The triple scout or double scout + 1 list is not unbeatable, it would do little harm to let this exist a little longer in the meta. 

     

  • The timing of this release is perhaps suspect. Going out on a limb a bit here, but why was this not announced in the summer FAQ? Clearly it has been in plans since then, as Alex Davy was on the record saying a "wave 9 hard counter to contract scouts was on the way". My guess is that FFG was not about to nerf the hottest selling SKU in their hottest game, without replacement product to be purchased. The implication being, many people bought 3 punishing one expansions, while FFG knew that the list would be nerfed once there was something else for us to buy. I think this is bad business and is shortsighted, if it is true. 
What are your thoughts? Am I wrong?

Very well said and I agree 100%.

They have got to slow down the releases and playtest more and/or better. I for one, am not interested in playing a "living" game. Rules need to be stable. Sure tweaks and clarifications are inevitable, but this is more than that. So when will we get x wing 2.0, and will be it be final or another work in progress.

And why just nerf Deadeye and Scouts? While you are at, let's raise the cost of Palp and Zuckess crew. At least they chipped away at Biggs.

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I dont like that they did it two weeks before Worlds. People are traveling around the...world to play in this event. Practicing for months with their list and FFG just said "F*** YOU!". It doesnt effect just the U-Boat players, but EVERY list is now designed to deal with U-Boats. Now, there will be no U-Boats! Doing immediately after Worlds would have been better, if it screws regionals over, then so be it.

 

I dont think Xwing is too big for its britches, not yet anyway. As soon as the scout was previewed every single player knew this thing was overpowered with Deadeye, without even putting it on the table yet. This wasnt a surprise. They knew it was coming.

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I don't play competitively at all so for anybody that does and is impacted by the decision; I get that and they have valid reason to be upset about it. With that being said it seems to me that Triple Jumps were having a negative impact on the game, at least as far as tournament play goes, and FFG made a bold decision to correct it that will not be popular with the people negatively impacted. I respect and appreciate that more than doing nothing so that some people don't get upset. Overall it seems like they made the best decision they could in a situation where it was going to be impossible to please everybody.

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Why do you all think that the 15K is dead?  Just because players can't use Deadeye anymore doesn't kill the ships.  Dengaroo only got slightly nerfed (as Whisper can cloak before Dengar can shoot back), but otherwise that list remains intact.  Loading out U-Boats will just take more skill to accomplish as they will have to perform a target lock in order to fire their munitions.  Different, yes.  Dead, no.  I can still see Contracted Scouts used as great blockers with just an Intel Agent and maybe a modification and BMST.  Under 30 points for something that can get in the way and be annoying.   Believe me, 15K is not dead, just severally crippled.

 

Oh, and FFG has made radical changes to cards in the past.  With Imperial Assault they totally changed up Imperial Officers, Royal Guards, and Rebel Sabateurs.  They did this because players either ran Imperial 4/4, Rebel Sabs, or they lost. 

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Today's nerf of the contracted scout torpedo build is bad for x-wing. First off, what we saw today is something entirely new for the game of x-wing. This was not a FAQ, but a "patch". Very little rules clarifications were done, and the FAQ was used to specifically nerf the contracted scout, and biggs to a lesser degree. Why is this bad?

 

  1. It shows that x-wing has gotten "too big for its britches". As pointed out in an excellent scum and villainy podcast recently, the complexity of the game is ratcheting up with every product release. Every new wave means thousands of interactions that need to be tested. The conclusion is the game designers are unable to accurately QA and playtest their product to avoid a critical error. The stat line on the jumpmaster being the first, with potentially more critical errors introduced with each new wave.

    I do not fault the game designers here, it seems they have 1.5 FTEs working on their highest grossing product. FFG really should inve$t in a better QA and playtesting process to protect this valuable revenue stream. Perhaps even mathematical modeling and analysis of the game dynamics and interactions to find all possible untested combinations is worth developing. 

     

  2. If you accept that this was a patch and not a rules clarification FAQ, this is a poor way to roll out patches. Weeks before the premier event in x-wing, with regionals following closely behind, many players have been practicing in earnest for weeks if not months. Many of you cheer the death of the contracted scout, but what if you had played 50 games with your scout list, in anticipation of attending worlds in a few weeks? How would you feel? What would your opinion be of x-wing and the game in general?

     

  3. If FFG is going to roll out patches such as this, it should be on a regular schedule, perhaps yearly, and it should be announced in advance. Perhaps even the major decisions such as this should be made public before they are permanent? The triple scout or double scout + 1 list is not unbeatable, it would do little harm to let this exist a little longer in the meta. 

     

  4. The timing of this release is perhaps suspect. Going out on a limb a bit here, but why was this not announced in the summer FAQ? Clearly it has been in plans since then, as Alex Davy was on the record saying a "wave 9 hard counter to contract scouts was on the way". My guess is that FFG was not about to nerf the hottest selling SKU in their hottest game, without replacement product to be purchased. The implication being, many people bought 3 punishing one expansions, while FFG knew that the list would be nerfed once there was something else for us to buy. I think this is bad business and is shortsighted, if it is true. 

What are your thoughts? Am I wrong? 

 

Yes. It is clear in your language that you are approaching this from a video game/programming perspective. Which doesn't work with a tabletop game. 

 

#1. You can only playtest so much before you have to be done. You can't just push back when you go to the printer. The development cycle is already nearly a year ahead of what is publicly known. And "more playtesting" sounds nice, but kind of unrealistic. That is more information for the designers to go through. And really, the more playtesters you add, the more likely you are adding people who are not adding valuable information. 

 

#2. I assume you are also arguing against the inclusion of Wave 9, as well? I mean, a new wave can have just as much impact. And not everyone may have been playtesting the new ships. This was really released at the best time for everyone. It doesn't affect Nationals that were still happening. And it takes place in time for Worlds. With plenty of time to come up with something new. Part of being the best is able to predict what others will bring. 

 

#3. It was between the various parts of the tournament season. Between Store Championships, Regionals, and Nationals/Worlds is the best time to release major changes like what was just released. However, you can't just only release the FAQ then, because certain stuff does need to be answered and in print after every new release. 

 

#4. It is only suspect if you like wearing tin foil hats. 

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I dont like that they did it two weeks before Worlds. People are traveling around the...world to play in this event. Practicing for months with their list and FFG just said "F*** YOU!". It doesnt effect just the U-Boat players, but EVERY list is now designed to deal with U-Boats. Now, there will be no U-Boats! Doing immediately after Worlds would have been better, if it screws regionals over, then so be it.

 

I dont think Xwing is too big for its britches, not yet anyway. As soon as the scout was previewed every single player knew this thing was overpowered with Deadeye, without even putting it on the table yet. This wasnt a surprise. They knew it was coming.

So you would have it done right after worlds, with less than 1 week until Regionals start back up.  NO.

 

FFG gave players 3 weeks notice.  That, I think, will be more than enough time to tweak their lists.  Players that played the 15K will have to totally change up their lists, but other lists won't have as much to change up......

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Nothing wrong with the nerf. FAQ 4.2.2 is the promised wave IX hard counter to uboats

 

....

....

 

Ok I'm joking alright? don't throw me bricks  :P

 

Although OP's point 4 is a valid concern, remember that Nerfmaster 5000's expansion pack is the easiest way to get guidance chips in addition to good upgrades such as Dengar and R5-P8. Plus Dengaroo is still a solid build, so the implied nerf impact should be only a third than previously thought (we need to buy 2 instead of 3 expacs, geddit? geddit?  :lol: )

 

Regarding the timing, I think they might have considered this in summer, but decided to go with the R4 Agromech FAQ in fear backlashes from shutting down the uboat build completely. Fast forward and you still see uboats as the golden benchmark for "is this build competitively viable?" which means it supresses both design space and creative list building. So I can see why they ended up going FORK IT THIS WILL BE THE DAY WE KILL THE JEDI UBOATS and hence FAQ 4.2.2 became order 66 for surviving wolf packs out there.

 

If anything, Mr Alex can you please Undo the faq for R4 Agromech? I see no point in nerfing this anymore and restricting cute builds like Kavil and his nifty underpowered blaster turret. We have regonked the gonk before so I'm sure it's possible?  ;)

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Nothing wrong with the nerf. FAQ 4.2.2 is the promised wave IX hard counter to uboats

 

....

....

 

Ok I'm joking alright? don't throw me bricks  :P

 

Although OP's point 4 is a valid concern, remember that Nerfmaster 5000's expansion pack is the easiest way to get guidance chips in addition to good upgrades such as Dengar and R5-P8. Plus Dengaroo is still a solid build, so the implied nerf impact should be only a third than previously thought (we need to buy 2 instead of 3 expacs, geddit? geddit?  :lol: )

 

Yeah I totally picked up my second Jumpmaster to run a wolf pack and not to get the 4 Atanni mindlinks I needed to run something fun like a Scyk swarm or Manaroo, Guri & Palob.

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