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Basic weakness and deck building

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It's refreshing to see a rules nitpick that doesn't even pretend that it has some higher purpose or integrity, and is truly just out to try and break the rules for the pure chaotic trollish joy of it.

 

Yup, as I said in my OP. Just really eager to get the game and looking for something new to discuss in the meantime. :P

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The rules are unclear on this point.

 

In "Learn to play", we juste have a solo example.

In "Rule Reference", this subject is not covered at all.

 

We can argue on "what FFG wanted to say", but it's not satisfying, given the quality of the rest of the rules.

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I am sorry but I do not see how it is NOT clear. Let me ask you this way: Everyone understands that we should get a weakness at random, right? all with the same probability. Obvious enough, right?

 

Now, I build a deck and get a weakness (say amnesia). If I now build a second deck and were to draw from the remaining 9 cards I would have 0% chance of getting amnesia)! This is against the "same odds of having any weakness" rule!!

 

Why should the chances of me getting a weakness depend on how many decks I built BEFORE that deck? it makes no sense. It is clear that you should refill the pool when making a second deck. This is even more clear when I can bring my deck and you bring yours. Why would it be different from me bringing two decks and lending you one?

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I am sorry but I do not see how it is NOT clear. Let me ask you this way: Everyone understands that we should get a weakness at random, right? all with the same probability. Obvious enough, right?

 

Now, I build a deck and get a weakness (say amnesia). If I now build a second deck and were to draw from the remaining 9 cards I would have 0% chance of getting amnesia)! This is against the "same odds of having any weakness" rule!!

 

Why should the chances of me getting a weakness depend on how many decks I built BEFORE that deck? it makes no sense. It is clear that you should refill the pool when making a second deck. This is even more clear when I can bring my deck and you bring yours. Why would it be different from me bringing two decks and lending you one?

 

So if you only own a single core set, how will you refill it and still play with 2 decks then? Also there may be a reason to not have the same weakness in all deck, and that may be why its called "a random weakness". 

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It's refreshing to see a rules nitpick that doesn't even pretend that it has some higher purpose or integrity, and is truly just out to try and break the rules for the pure chaotic trollish joy of it.

 

Yup, as I said in my OP. Just really eager to get the game and looking for something new to discuss in the meantime. :P

 

 

You know how this will work, and still just does this to annoy us haha :P

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I am sorry but I do not see how it is NOT clear. Let me ask you this way: Everyone understands that we should get a weakness at random, right? all with the same probability. Obvious enough, right?

 

Now, I build a deck and get a weakness (say amnesia). If I now build a second deck and were to draw from the remaining 9 cards I would have 0% chance of getting amnesia)! This is against the "same odds of having any weakness" rule!!

 

Why should the chances of me getting a weakness depend on how many decks I built BEFORE that deck? it makes no sense. It is clear that you should refill the pool when making a second deck. This is even more clear when I can bring my deck and you bring yours. Why would it be different from me bringing two decks and lending you one?

 

So if you only own a single core set, how will you refill it and still play with 2 decks then? Also there may be a reason to not have the same weakness in all deck, and that may be why its called "a random weakness". 

 

 

Thank you brissebrajan

 

FFG clearly says you can play a 2-player game with only one core set.

And the procedure to draw a randow weakness is not clear for this situation.

With only one core set, you can't refill the pool for the second player.

 

So, to quote you, YES,  "the chances of me getting a weakness [DO] depend on how many decks I built BEFORE that deck".

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Just do whatever you feel like OMG. Personally i will be drawing all cards from one weakness pool. So i will follow the example and take the 10 weakness cards from 1 core + any from any expansions and draw from that.

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Let me give you an example:

I have just built a deck for a campaign when my friend comes over and sees what I'm doing. I tell him about the game and he proceeds to build a deck too from my core set. He asks what he should include in the deck and I tell him to look in the rulebook. He reads the paragraph I quoted above and exclaims "you only have nine weakness cards here, I can't follow the deckbuilding instructions".

What should he do. Is it covered in the rules somewhere?

This is where my nitpicking applies.

 

Well the rules does not say "there has to be 10 cards in the pool" it says that you draw your weakness from the pool of one core. What is does say is that there are only 10 weakness cards in the core set, in the example above your friend would have a pool of 9 cards, for building a second deck. The rulebook does also say that you will be able to extend your weakness pool by buying expansion packs that will add more weakness cards to your pool. But u will never ever combine weakness cards from multiple core sets.

 

 

"To select a random basic weakness, take a set of the ten basic weaknesses in this core set, shuffle those weaknesses together, and draw one at random to add to the investigator’s deck" - Learn to Play p.14

 

It does say ten in the pool.

 

 

No, it says "take a set of the ten basic weakness in this core set" meaning there is only 10 basic weakness cards in any one core set. It does NOT say "when constructing a deck, the pool of basic weakness cards must be 10 cards, take one of these cards and add them to your deck."

 

And it does NOT say "if you only have a pool of 9 cards, either strip a deck of its basic weakness cards and at it to the pool, or buy a new core set from us and add one random basic weakness card to you weakness pool"

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Now, I build a deck and get a weakness (say amnesia). If I now build a second deck and were to draw from the remaining 9 cards I would have 0% chance of getting amnesia)! This is against the "same odds of having any weakness" rule!!

 

 

 

If they wanted every investigator to have the same weakness, they would have 10 cards and have all of them being the same weakness. You would not draw at random but instead "add one basic amnesia weakness to your deck".

 

There are 8 different basic weakness cards in the core set, 2 of these cards have a duplicate totaling 10 cards. So there is a small possibility for you to have the same basic weakness in 2 of your decks.

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It's refreshing to see a rules nitpick that doesn't even pretend that it has some higher purpose or integrity, and is truly just out to try and break the rules for the pure chaotic trollish joy of it.

 

Yup, as I said in my OP. Just really eager to get the game and looking for something new to discuss in the meantime. :P

 

 

You know how this will work, and still just does this to annoy us haha :P

 

 

I always nurture hope that people can argue productively about anything, even on the internet. I've yet to see it happen, but I keep creating arguments, not to annoy, but to learn.

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Let me give you an example:

I have just built a deck for a campaign when my friend comes over and sees what I'm doing. I tell him about the game and he proceeds to build a deck too from my core set. He asks what he should include in the deck and I tell him to look in the rulebook. He reads the paragraph I quoted above and exclaims "you only have nine weakness cards here, I can't follow the deckbuilding instructions".

What should he do. Is it covered in the rules somewhere?

This is where my nitpicking applies.

 

Well the rules does not say "there has to be 10 cards in the pool" it says that you draw your weakness from the pool of one core. What is does say is that there are only 10 weakness cards in the core set, in the example above your friend would have a pool of 9 cards, for building a second deck. The rulebook does also say that you will be able to extend your weakness pool by buying expansion packs that will add more weakness cards to your pool. But u will never ever combine weakness cards from multiple core sets.

 

 

"To select a random basic weakness, take a set of the ten basic weaknesses in this core set, shuffle those weaknesses together, and draw one at random to add to the investigator’s deck" - Learn to Play p.14

 

It does say ten in the pool.

 

 

No, it says "take a set of the ten basic weakness in this core set" meaning there is only 10 basic weakness cards in any one core set. It does NOT say "when constructing a deck, the pool of basic weakness cards must be 10 cards, take one of these cards and add them to your deck."

 

And it does NOT say "if you only have a pool of 9 cards, either strip a deck of its basic weakness cards and at it to the pool, or buy a new core set from us and add one random basic weakness card to you weakness pool"

 

1. You are correct in stating that it does not say "when constructing a deck, the pool of basic weakness cards must be 10 cards, take one of these cards and add them to your deck.", it says what I said, which you quoted just before that. On this we agree.

 

2. I also agree that it does not say "if you only have a pool of 9 cards, either strip a deck of its basic weakness cards and at it to the pool, or buy a new core set from us and add one random basic weakness card to you weakness pool".

 

What I want to highlight is when the instructions tell you to "take a set of the ten basic weaknesses in this core set" and then don't explain what to do when you can't follow that specific instruction.

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Let me give you an example:

I have just built a deck for a campaign when my friend comes over and sees what I'm doing. I tell him about the game and he proceeds to build a deck too from my core set. He asks what he should include in the deck and I tell him to look in the rulebook. He reads the paragraph I quoted above and exclaims "you only have nine weakness cards here, I can't follow the deckbuilding instructions".

What should he do. Is it covered in the rules somewhere?

This is where my nitpicking applies.

 

Well the rules does not say "there has to be 10 cards in the pool" it says that you draw your weakness from the pool of one core. What is does say is that there are only 10 weakness cards in the core set, in the example above your friend would have a pool of 9 cards, for building a second deck. The rulebook does also say that you will be able to extend your weakness pool by buying expansion packs that will add more weakness cards to your pool. But u will never ever combine weakness cards from multiple core sets.

 

 

"To select a random basic weakness, take a set of the ten basic weaknesses in this core set, shuffle those weaknesses together, and draw one at random to add to the investigator’s deck" - Learn to Play p.14

 

It does say ten in the pool.

 

 

No, it says "take a set of the ten basic weakness in this core set" meaning there is only 10 basic weakness cards in any one core set. It does NOT say "when constructing a deck, the pool of basic weakness cards must be 10 cards, take one of these cards and add them to your deck."

 

And it does NOT say "if you only have a pool of 9 cards, either strip a deck of its basic weakness cards and at it to the pool, or buy a new core set from us and add one random basic weakness card to you weakness pool"

 

1. You are correct in stating that it does not say "when constructing a deck, the pool of basic weakness cards must be 10 cards, take one of these cards and add them to your deck.", it says what I said, which you quoted just before that. On this we agree.

 

2. I also agree that it does not say "if you only have a pool of 9 cards, either strip a deck of its basic weakness cards and at it to the pool, or buy a new core set from us and add one random basic weakness card to you weakness pool".

 

What I want to highlight is when the instructions tell you to "take a set of the ten basic weaknesses in this core set" and then don't explain what to do when you can't follow that specific instruction.

 

 

I understand you, but for me this isn't a game like Lotr where you build and have a ton of different decks. This is more like a board game, and if you are playing 2 players, well i guess you "build the 2 decks" at the same time, and when both of your decks are built, you give each deck a weakness card from the pool. So if you have 1 or 2 decks(solo or 2 players), they are given a random basic weakness card at the same time.

 

 

They don't say this out loud in the rulebook, but it does say that you are given a random basic weakness as the last step in creating your investigator deck(s). And also this is more a game of select an investigator and here is his deck, and now before we play he must have a random weakness card. There may also be investigators in the game that starts without a random weakness. 

 

 

 

 

So for me this could work in this way: I want to play solo, i build a deck, when i have added all the cards from the back of my investigator card, before i start playing, I add a random weakness. Or i build 2 decks, and when I’m done, i give each deck a random weakness, at the same time.

 

 

Then, a friend want to try it out with me, so we either play with my 2 decks, or removes all the weakness cards in my 2 decks. We now in turn selects an investigator, we both create our decks. Now before we start playing, we are both given a random basic weakness from the pool, at the same time or when one of us is done.

 

 

Adding a random weakness is the last thing we add to a deck before we start playing. So if I want to play in non- campaign mode, I could remove my random weakness and put it back in my pool after each scenario. Playing campaign mode, this is not allowed, I must have the same weakness in my deck unless some effect allows me to remove it.

 

And also, on the back of each investigator(in this case Roland banks), there are Deckbuilding options: bla bla bla... and Deckbuilding requirements: Here it say 1 random basic weakness.

Edited by brissebrajan

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Ok so after playing through the campaign i can say, that as a minimum you will need the second set of basic weakness cards when playing with 3 or 4 investigators. The reason for this is in the paragraph below.

 

In the third scenario, there is an effect at one point that makes each investigator add one madness basic weakness to their deck. Furthermore if you hit a specific resolution of the 3rd scenario there is a similar effect.

Lets say each player drew a madness effect in the beginning of the campaign. In total there are 6 madness basic weakness in 1 core set.

In 3 players that would leave enough madness cards to add 1 to each for the effect in the middle of the 3rd mission, but it would not be possible to add madness effects from the resolution as well, and therefore the game would "break" if you wanted to continue with those investigators.

 

In a 4 player game if all players drew madness cards in the beginning it would be impossible to add a madness card in any of the cases and would leave the game a bit "broken"



Therefore i see 2 solutions, when playing with more than 2 players. 

Either draw from 1 core set + expansions when dealing out basic weakness cards in the beginning and then add the 2nd weakness set afterwards.

 

Add all weakness cards together in the start and draw from the complete pile.

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Well guys, we have to agree to disagree. It makes NO SENSE at all that your decks have "memory" and depend on how many decks you create. Hell, you could cheat with that since knowing which weaknesses you won't have helps you in deckbuilding Even if Nate French and Matthew Newman come and tell me I am wrong we will still play with the "reset to default" rule.

 

Of course if you make two decks from a single core set you simply may not be able to refill back to 10, so simply reset as much as possibly. The same may happen if you build 75 decks and only have 15 cores, but that is a byproduct of limited resources.

 

If FFG printed two copies of every weakness there would be a thread about how they are an evil company and they add too many useless cards for those that buy two core sets.

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Now, I build a deck and get a weakness (say amnesia). If I now build a second deck and were to draw from the remaining 9 cards I would have 0% chance of getting amnesia)! This is against the "same odds of having any weakness" rule!!

 

Would you care to cite this "same odds of having any weakness" rule?  Because as near as I can tell, you've made it up out of thin air.  It's also worth pointing out that we know the 10 basic weaknesses are NOT unique - two of them are duplicated.  So not only is your rule obviously invented, it's actively contradicted by what comes in the box.

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Well guys, we have to agree to disagree. It makes NO SENSE at all that your decks have "memory" and depend on how many decks you create. Hell, you could cheat with that since knowing which weaknesses you won't have helps you in deckbuilding Even if Nate French and Matthew Newman come and tell me I am wrong we will still play with the "reset to default" rule.

So you're not actually trying to figure out how to play it right, you're just arguing for how you want it to be played regardless.  I'm not sure how this is even a topic for discussion then.

 

And FWIW, I believe you build a deck for a scenario or campaign, so it wouldn't matter how many decks you built, you wouldn't seed a basic weakness until the start of the campaign/scenario.  At that point you know how many others are going to be in the campaign, and draw accordingly.

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Ok so after playing through the campaign i can say, that as a minimum you will need the second set of basic weakness cards when playing with 3 or 4 investigators. The reason for this is in the paragraph below.

I don't think this is correct.  The "build a pool" approach is specifically cited for "To select a random basic weakness..."  If something instructs you to add things directly, you wouldn't pull it from the same pool.

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Hell, you could cheat with that since knowing which weaknesses you won't have helps you in deckbuilding 

Hard to take your obstinance seriously when you're missing rules like this:

 

The weakness selected via the process described above is added to the player’s deck at the end of the deckbuilding process, after all other cards in the player’s deck have been selected.

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Wow buhallin, it seems I hit a nerve there! 4 replies from you alone

 

When I said that Nate could come and tell me that I was wrong it was obviously an exaggeration. I am willing to bet a core set that he will agree with me.

 

Would you care to cite this "same odds of having any weakness" rule?  Because as near as I can tell, you've made it up out of thin air.  It's also worth pointing out that we know the 10 basic weaknesses are NOT unique - two of them are duplicated.  So not only is your rule obviously invented, it's actively contradicted by what comes in the box.

"To select a random basic weakness, take a set of the ten basic weaknesses in this core set, shuffle those weaknesses together, and draw one at random to add to the investigator’s deck"

 

This implies that you have 1/10 chances of getting any weakness. All of them with the same probability. 

 

Now it is my time to ask: where does it say "if you build more than one deck they have to be built at the same time" (rsdockery suggested to draw weaknesses at the same time) or "in order to choose weakness it will depend on when or how many decks you have built before"?

 

Hard to take your obstinance seriously when you're missing rules like this:

 

The weakness selected via the process described above is added to the player’s deck at the end of the deckbuilding process, after all other cards in the player’s deck have been selected.

 

It seems you did not understand me: imagine I build deck A and get paranoia. If we play by your rules I can afterwards build another deck knowing that I will NOT get paranoia. So yes, I will know which weakness I will NOT get before building.

 

Sure enough, I won't be able to use the second deck in the first runthrough of the first scenario...but I can use it in the second one. If we even want to abuse the rules I could kill my first player and the rules tell you to restart over. I could essentially make characters until I get exactly the weakness that I want

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Or you could choose one at random, and shuffle it into your deck facedown so you don't know what it is and can't affect your building decisions for the next deck.

Or we could all admit this argument is pointless and academic.

Or we could all agree that this ambiguity makes the game completely unplayable and further proof it's already dying.

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It seems like an easy solution.

 

If playing with multiple characters for a single campaign, draw from a single (with base game only that means 10 card deck) - no matter how many players you play with.

 

If you are making decks for another campaign (that you do not plan to start yet), grab weakness cards from those other decks so you use a full set of 10 and then draw cards for new campaign.  Of course, you should just make a note of which weakness was used for each campaign.

 

Overall, this hasn't been an issue for me yet since I have had to make note of a lot more than just basic weakness.

 

I have a single base game and I play it solo plus with another player.  I do not have enough cards for a 3 player game so I have to make note of my cards anyway; the weakness cards are just another note I make.

 

For my notes, I assume all 20 class cards are used (and I make note of any upgrades and removals of those cards), but I make note of which neutral cards are used (except the ones I tend to use every deck, which are 2 flashlights and 2....whatever gives 3 resources).

 

I don't think the rulebook was talking about how to make a deck that you then let sit around.  It's about how you make one just before playing.  If you do something that isn't standard (such as either building it well beforehand or having a friend bring their own deck, then you just do whatever you can to make it most like standard - so you draw from 1 pool).

 

If you really are going that much beforehand, I'd just draw your weakness right before you play your first scenario with that deck.  If you have to steal it from another deck, make a note.

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