Jump to content
Dark Reaper

Imperial Assault Hero Guide – Part 1: Tier Lists

Recommended Posts

Finally! The last part with the S-tier heroes has been updated. I hope to get a new "guide" done soon, where I will hopefully talk some more about synergies and picking a party. 

 

I think I mostly agree with your assessments of the S-tier heroes (only difference is that I don't think Suppressive Fire is usually that great on Fenn). You have some good analysis and I think your rankings are overall fairly accurate.

 

One issue - in your S-tier hero post you frequently compare each hero and their abilities to Loku and his abilities. I have a few problems with this:

 

1) Loku (or any one hero) isn't the standard for what a hero should be, so using only him as a comparison is not very helpful. You should have a variety of comparisons, not just the same one over and over. Which brings me to...

 

2) You can't compare abilities in a vacuum - it's the combination of abilities that makes a hero or bad, not a single ability by itself. Heroes should have abilities that are stronger or weaker in different situations, builds, and team compositions. And an ability that would be very powerful on one hero might be weak on another, and vice versa.

 

3) Your dismissal of Loku and obvious dislike of him makes me wonder how much you have actually seen him played. I've found him to be highly effective. While he may not be quite as good as Fenn, Diala, or Gideon, he is not significantly worse and in the right team can be quite powerful. So I wonder if he has just been played ineffectively or not fit into his team when you've seen him used.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Loku's Combat Spotter more or less makes any missions where the rebel objective is to defeat certain figure(s) a cakewalk for the rebels (borderline broken). There is no running away or blocking line of sight.

 

Although this is my first play of Return to Hoth, the first play with Precision Training, I have made my share of mistakes, and the rebels are not beginners, which all help, Loku and Murne are rocking in this campaign and I'm looking forward to getting at least one mission win during the campaign. https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1601266/red-snow-white-troopers-swia032

 

On hind-sight I should've taken any of the class decks I have played before.

 

Edit: Loku has Scouting Report too, so the rebels have had plenty of credits to spend.

Edited by a1bert

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On hind-sight I should've taken any of the class decks I have played before.

 

I'm not sure how I feel about precision training; it seems fairly weak but there are probably some really good builds and unit combos. I will say though, hold out judgement until you get Find the Weakness. It's a game-changer for sure.

 

Also, I wouldn't ignore Sharpshooters. Being able to be 1 space further away can make a big difference sometimes. And when you have both Sharpshooters and Find the weakness, that's a +1 Accuracy| Pierce 1 buff for everyone, which is pretty huge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(Off-Topic: Find the Weakness will be my purchase after this mission, but the rebels are good and have a head start. High-Value Target would help quite a bit without that blasted MHD-19 who is undoing whatever damage I have managed. :D )

 

I'm surely interested in thoughts about hero synergy.

Edited by a1bert

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Finally! The last part with the S-tier heroes has been updated. I hope to get a new "guide" done soon, where I will hopefully talk some more about synergies and picking a party.

 

I think I mostly agree with your assessments of the S-tier heroes (only difference is that I don't think Suppressive Fire is usually that great on Fenn). You have some good analysis and I think your rankings are overall fairly accurate.

 

One issue - in your S-tier hero post you frequently compare each hero and their abilities to Loku and his abilities. I have a few problems with this:

 

1) Loku (or any one hero) isn't the standard for what a hero should be, so using only him as a comparison is not very helpful. You should have a variety of comparisons, not just the same one over and over. Which brings me to...

 

2) You can't compare abilities in a vacuum - it's the combination of abilities that makes a hero or bad, not a single ability by itself. Heroes should have abilities that are stronger or weaker in different situations, builds, and team compositions. And an ability that would be very powerful on one hero might be weak on another, and vice versa.

 

3) Your dismissal of Loku and obvious dislike of him makes me wonder how much you have actually seen him played. I've found him to be highly effective. While he may not be quite as good as Fenn, Diala, or Gideon, he is not significantly worse and in the right team can be quite powerful. So I wonder if he has just been played ineffectively or not fit into his team when you've seen him used.

1. Yeah, I use him a lot for comparisons here. There was some discussion on him earlier and I wanted to showcase why I think these heroes are good and he isn't.

2. I think I have written approximately 20 pages now. You obviously can't refer to everything in a vacuum, but at one point there is simply so much information you can provide or I would never finish this. The next part will hopefully be more about synergies and how heroes work together.

3. Loku is a hero who has good range and can put a minor dmg buff on enemies. His skills are often very situational and are often easy to ignore. The best heroes in the game often do the same things as he do easier. Maybe people have gotten more use out of him than I have, but I struggle to see his appeal. In our last campaign we played with him, Fenn, Gideon and Davith Elso. If you compare how much work Fenn can do with Havoc Shot and the use Loku has with his recon tokens that is definitely in Fenn's favour.

As for Suppressive Fire, it is a bit hit or miss. I like it, but it is by no means necessary.

Thanks for the thought out reply. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Finally! The last part with the S-tier heroes has been updated. I hope to get a new "guide" done soon, where I will hopefully talk some more about synergies and picking a party.

 

I think I mostly agree with your assessments of the S-tier heroes (only difference is that I don't think Suppressive Fire is usually that great on Fenn). You have some good analysis and I think your rankings are overall fairly accurate.

 

One issue - in your S-tier hero post you frequently compare each hero and their abilities to Loku and his abilities. I have a few problems with this:

 

1) Loku (or any one hero) isn't the standard for what a hero should be, so using only him as a comparison is not very helpful. You should have a variety of comparisons, not just the same one over and over. Which brings me to...

 

2) You can't compare abilities in a vacuum - it's the combination of abilities that makes a hero or bad, not a single ability by itself. Heroes should have abilities that are stronger or weaker in different situations, builds, and team compositions. And an ability that would be very powerful on one hero might be weak on another, and vice versa.

 

3) Your dismissal of Loku and obvious dislike of him makes me wonder how much you have actually seen him played. I've found him to be highly effective. While he may not be quite as good as Fenn, Diala, or Gideon, he is not significantly worse and in the right team can be quite powerful. So I wonder if he has just been played ineffectively or not fit into his team when you've seen him used.

1. Yeah, I use him a lot for comparisons here. There was some discussion on him earlier and I wanted to showcase why I think these heroes are good and he isn't.

2. I think I have written approximately 20 pages now. You obviously can't refer to everything in a vacuum, but at one point there is simply so much information you can provide or I would never finish this. The next part will hopefully be more about synergies and how heroes work together.

3. Loku is a hero who has good range and can put a minor dmg buff on enemies. His skills are often very situational and are often easy to ignore. The best heroes in the game often do the same things as he do easier. Maybe people have gotten more use out of him than I have, but I struggle to see his appeal. In our last campaign we played with him, Fenn, Gideon and Davith Elso. If you compare how much work Fenn can do with Havoc Shot and the use Loku has with his recon tokens that is definitely in Fenn's favour.

As for Suppressive Fire, it is a bit hit or miss. I like it, but it is by no means necessary.

Thanks for the thought out reply. :)

 

 

If you want to try to make Loku more effective, you might try giving him a good pistol and playing him a bit like Diala, a half-support who does some pretty good damage. Pistols tend to have higher damage to make up for their lack of range, but his passive range buff essentially negates that disadvantage. I've seen him do crazy stuff with the DDC Defender + Plasma cell and the Deathhammer.

 

Also, don't underestimate the action economy granted by the (1XP!) Scouting Report ability. It's 3-4 free actions per game, and 50 credits + a powerful ability is amazing for 1 strain. I would put Scouting Report on the level of Tactical Movement in terms of usefulness and priority. It's a huge short-term boost with powerful supply cards, and a great long-term boost by getting extra credits.

 

Overall, I don't think comparing him to heroes like Fenn or Mak makes a lot of sense - those are pretty much pure damage heroes (the way most people build them anyway). And comparing him to supports like Gideon (who makes everyone look pretty bad anyway) or Murne/MHD also doesn't make sense, because he does have several abilities that encourage attacking. He's a half-support, so he's not going to support as well as supports or damage as well as damage-dealers. So actually it makes sense that he would look bad in direct comparisons to either of these.

 

And thanks for responding so well to feedback and discussion! It's good to debate these things and see different perspectives  :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This hero guide is very useful but I have to agree with Stompburger: Loku is not that bad, he's no Fenn, but who is? His Combat Spotter turned certain defeat into victory twice so far. I'll have to suggest the pistol use next time we play. Sounds interesting.

The other text on Study of Enemies: surge - exhaust this card to place a recon token on a hostile figure within two spaces of the target. When it works it saves two stress! Useful. Now, after this defense of Loku, would I move him into A-tier? No. He is no powerhouse, but he is better than presented.

The others I've played/seen played (all of them but Saska) are pretty accurate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Finally! The last part with the S-tier heroes has been updated. I hope to get a new "guide" done soon, where I will hopefully talk some more about synergies and picking a party.

 

I think I mostly agree with your assessments of the S-tier heroes (only difference is that I don't think Suppressive Fire is usually that great on Fenn). You have some good analysis and I think your rankings are overall fairly accurate.

 

One issue - in your S-tier hero post you frequently compare each hero and their abilities to Loku and his abilities. I have a few problems with this:

 

1) Loku (or any one hero) isn't the standard for what a hero should be, so using only him as a comparison is not very helpful. You should have a variety of comparisons, not just the same one over and over. Which brings me to...

 

2) You can't compare abilities in a vacuum - it's the combination of abilities that makes a hero or bad, not a single ability by itself. Heroes should have abilities that are stronger or weaker in different situations, builds, and team compositions. And an ability that would be very powerful on one hero might be weak on another, and vice versa.

 

3) Your dismissal of Loku and obvious dislike of him makes me wonder how much you have actually seen him played. I've found him to be highly effective. While he may not be quite as good as Fenn, Diala, or Gideon, he is not significantly worse and in the right team can be quite powerful. So I wonder if he has just been played ineffectively or not fit into his team when you've seen him used.

1. Yeah, I use him a lot for comparisons here. There was some discussion on him earlier and I wanted to showcase why I think these heroes are good and he isn't.

2. I think I have written approximately 20 pages now. You obviously can't refer to everything in a vacuum, but at one point there is simply so much information you can provide or I would never finish this. The next part will hopefully be more about synergies and how heroes work together.

3. Loku is a hero who has good range and can put a minor dmg buff on enemies. His skills are often very situational and are often easy to ignore. The best heroes in the game often do the same things as he do easier. Maybe people have gotten more use out of him than I have, but I struggle to see his appeal. In our last campaign we played with him, Fenn, Gideon and Davith Elso. If you compare how much work Fenn can do with Havoc Shot and the use Loku has with his recon tokens that is definitely in Fenn's favour.

As for Suppressive Fire, it is a bit hit or miss. I like it, but it is by no means necessary.

Thanks for the thought out reply. :)

 

 

If you want to try to make Loku more effective, you might try giving him a good pistol and playing him a bit like Diala, a half-support who does some pretty good damage. Pistols tend to have higher damage to make up for their lack of range, but his passive range buff essentially negates that disadvantage. I've seen him do crazy stuff with the DDC Defender + Plasma cell and the Deathhammer.

 

Also, don't underestimate the action economy granted by the (1XP!) Scouting Report ability. It's 3-4 free actions per game, and 50 credits + a powerful ability is amazing for 1 strain. I would put Scouting Report on the level of Tactical Movement in terms of usefulness and priority. It's a huge short-term boost with powerful supply cards, and a great long-term boost by getting extra credits.

 

Overall, I don't think comparing him to heroes like Fenn or Mak makes a lot of sense - those are pretty much pure damage heroes (the way most people build them anyway). And comparing him to supports like Gideon (who makes everyone look pretty bad anyway) or Murne/MHD also doesn't make sense, because he does have several abilities that encourage attacking. He's a half-support, so he's not going to support as well as supports or damage as well as damage-dealers. So actually it makes sense that he would look bad in direct comparisons to either of these.

 

And thanks for responding so well to feedback and discussion! It's good to debate these things and see different perspectives  :D

 

 

A pistol is good on Loku, but when he gets wounded he loses his +2 accuracy so you start feeling like you're in a death spiral.

 

Scouting Report is easily his best card, but it's not on the level of Tactical Movement.  In use it still means you're using one of your 2 tokens which are required for ALL his powers, and you still need to get someone to the crate.  If you work something with Mak and MHD-19 who can manipulate the deck it might pay off with getting better items from the crates.

 

The problem here is Loku's best card, Scouting Report, isn't terribly good in mini campaigns which have fewer crates and fewer missions.  :(

 

Comparison with Fenn or Gideon isn't really fair but comparison with Saska or Diala is.  His powers are similar to but better than Saska's however his 2 token limit gimps him so hard he ends up being significantly worse than Saska.  He is of course worse than Diala, but she's the Fenn or Gideon of the semi-support characters.

Edited by Union

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's no way Murne can be S-tier. Are you ignoring the figure cost limitation on her ability? I would say it's actually the weakest hero ability in the game when you're not playing against Tech Superiority. I've gotten much better usage out of Saska than Murne.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think there are several ways to build Murne and Lead from the Front might be a good way to build her. As soon as you get to 3 threat you can start attacking with Heavy Stormtroopers or Elite Stormtroopers, so I don't think the threat limitation matters that much. Attacking with Tanks or E-Webs would honestly be a bit over the top.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's no way Murne can be S-tier. Are you ignoring the figure cost limitation on her ability? I would say it's actually the weakest hero ability in the game when you're not playing against Tech Superiority. I've gotten much better usage out of Saska than Murne.

 

Solidarity is OP.  Lead From The Front is OP.  Solidarity + Lead From The Front + her on card strain removal makes her pretty insane.  Tons of free healing, tons of free movement and hits hard.  If she's on the board the Imperials need to play around her more than Jyn's reaction shot and maybe even more than Fenn's blast.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is Lead from The Fron really that good? If it activate about once per Murne activation I can see it add 1dmg and 1pierce average if you play for it. Doesnt seem OP. Solid, but not OP. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course nothing is good in a vacuum, the other heroes need to complement each ability.

 

Lead from the Front gives on average +1dmg, Pierce 1 and +2 accuracy, so even if Murne would attack only once, is a great boost. (For example Trench Fighter gives +2dmg only to one attack per activation and is limited to within 3 spaces.) It's absolutely devastating with Hand Cannon (2 reds). With Solidarity or MHD-19 with Bacta Radiator she can attack and keep moving.

 

(I'm playing against Murne with Lead from the Front and Hand Cannon, so I know. Everything can be played around, although with Davith and Loku as well things are not going well for me.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm going against those three as well. Only bright spot is the Rebs took Biv. Murne quickly became target #1 and Loku target #2. My Murne player took "Waylay" instead of LFtF. I pointed out LFtF was better but he was thinking in number of attacks and not quality of attacks. Hope that strain haunts him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm going against those three as well. Only bright spot is the Rebs took Biv. Murne quickly became target #1 and Loku target #2. My Murne player took "Waylay" instead of LFtF. I pointed out LFtF was better but he was thinking in number of attacks and not quality of attacks. Hope that strain haunts him.

 

Waylay is a great card that lets you get another attack out of Fenn as well as letting you save credits by not buying Murne a weapon.  But if you have Gideon in your party Master Stroking Murne with Lead From The Front... yeah... yeah... oh yeah.  With solidarity he can even move her into position first, in fact she never spends movement points, she just keeps that barrel glowing.

Edited by Union

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, both her 4XP cards are solid, but no Fenn in this group. She just got it and has only used it once. My hope is she gets too much stress for proper usage.

 

She doesn't really generate that much strain, I don't see it being an issue.

 

She is pretty much identical to Gideon, Master Stroke = Waylay, Called Shot = Professional Aide, Mobile Tactician = Solidarity, Rallying Shout = Rebel Propaganda.

 

Rallying Shout and Master Stroke are better than Murne's, but Professional Aide and Solidarity are better than Gideon's.

 

So basically she should be resting every second turn if not every turn and counting on Solidarity and strain to move her.

 

I've played her both ways and Waylay just doesn't quite put her on Gideon's level but she's solid.  Lead From The Front however is a very solid card that makes her very strong, while only getting 2 attacks, she still have excellent support.  Both 4XP cards however benefit greatly from Solidarity which just makes everything about her better.  Potentially 12 free movement or healing, typically some combination of 6 points per turn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the guide for Murne, it mentions using Sonic Bellow on Royal Guards which is impossible because it's figure cost 3 or less. So it can't actually be used against any imperial melee units.

The biggest problem I have with False Orders is that Imperial figures attacks don't get stronger as the campaign progresses, in fact they tend to get weaker relative to the heroes as the campaign progresses and just more numerous. And when an imperial figure does show up that has an attack on par or better than the heroes, they're usually above the threat level and so untouchable by False Orders. Also in my experience playing Murne, the enemies close enough to command are also the ones that tend to already have damage on them, so I want to shoot at them, not with them.

People are talking about lead from the front, so I guess that would make her more of an offensive unit instead of the support she looks like right? I was using her as a support hero and she underperformed, but perhaps I wasn't using her correctly. Does that mean she wants credits spent on giving her an updated weapon and mods? And it Sounds like all of her good abilities cost 3+ xp, so what would the best build look like? LftF, then Solidarity, then Waylay or Double Agent depending on if you got bonus xp? Coupled with the fact that False Orders isn't really that great until great level 4, Murne seems to be a very slow starter.

Edited by Tvboy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my game I'm using Black Ops, so the Murne player can usually find a Hidden target for her False Orders. :(

Thus getting an extra surge and removing hidden from an Imperial unit. He also False Order's a unit to shoot at damaged unit he can't see (as Murne) sometimes killing it , and then Waylays his False Order target. (and if that target is still alive, he shoots it). He is getting good at playing Murne.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In the guide for Murne, it mentions using Sonic Bellow on Royal Guards which is impossible because it's figure cost 3 or less. So it can't actually be used against any imperial melee units. 

 

That is only for skirmish.

 

For campaign mode, it is a figure costing threat level or less. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

In the guide for Murne, it mentions using Sonic Bellow on Royal Guards which is impossible because it's figure cost 3 or less. So it can't actually be used against any imperial melee units. 

 

That is only for skirmish.

 

For campaign mode, it is a figure costing threat level or less. 

 

You're thinking of False Orders.  Sonic Bellow is a 1XP class card in the Campaign, and it is for figure cost 3 or less.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

In the guide for Murne, it mentions using Sonic Bellow on Royal Guards which is impossible because it's figure cost 3 or less. So it can't actually be used against any imperial melee units. 

 

That is only for skirmish.

 

For campaign mode, it is a figure costing threat level or less. 

 

Yeah, I made a mistake there. I have never made that mistake in game at least. We are currently trying a Waylay into Solidarity build with Murne. She is a good hero. Maybe I will try Lead From the Front next campaign.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...