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MorbidDon

These Forums are starting to feel like the Askellon Sector LOL

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Two things about optimization and why it's a big thing in the D&D scene:

 

1. D&D is almost 100% devoted to combat. Sure, you can run a combat-light or even combat-free D&D campaign, but that's not really what the system assumes will happen, and not necessarily what it's best geared to do. With that much focus on combat, it's no wonder finding ways to increase combat performance is a popular pastime.

 

2. D&D character creation and advancement is built on package deals. When you advance your character, you pick a class and gain a level in it, each level of each class giving you specific things. Since the number of levels you can get is rather limited (in 5e, at best you can reach level 20, though there's no guarantee the campaign you're playing will take you there), each choice you make also closes off other choices. Then, there are the sub-class options (fighting archetypes, magic schools etc.) which you generally pick once and then gain a number of traits from them at different levels. Then, at certain levels you have a choice of either raising your stats or gaining a feat, where feats are quite awesome in 5e, but pursuing them to the exclusion of stat increases is not necessarily viable. All in all, D&D character creation and advancement is a game within a game, and how well you play it affects how well your character fares in the main game.

 

40k had a much greater need for discussing optimal build strategies in games that stuck with the career system, ranked advancement tables and alternate ranks. The way DH2 is set up, the best we can do is discuss aptitude combinations and how to get them. Overall, most stuff in 40k is pretty straightforward and easily understandable - I don't need an optimization guru to know Step Aside is a great talent for enhancing my survivability, or that Crushing Blow will positively affect my melee performance. As such, not that much to talk about when it comes to optimization unless you want to really delve deep, at which point the math becomes kinda annoying (many variables affecting each combat action).

 

I've done some number crunching and theorycrafting for 40k in other games' forums, and at some point I've pondered writing a few build guides for Deathwatch (the most optimizer-friendly 40k game if you ask me). I don't think there's anything in particular I'd like to share at the moment, but if a discussion crops up that'd benefit from this approach, I'd be inclined to step in ;)

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I just want to say > DH2 and and 40k in general are combat oriented...

 

Optimization would seem to go hand in hand with that RPG play style - other end of the spectrum being things like Paranoa or or some of the White Wolf Publishing stuff... (aka more Role Play focused per say)

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I just want to say > DH2 and and 40k in general are combat oriented...

 

Optimization would seem to go hand in hand with that RPG play style - other end of the spectrum being things like Paranoa or or some of the White Wolf Publishing stuff... (aka more Role Play focused per say)

 

Paranoia can be quite combat orientated (Zap style) It's just that things never go as planned and your own weapon is most likely to kill you ;).

 

Actually that got me thinking: How about using the (N)WoD of darkness rules to play 40K?

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Actually that got me thinking: How about using the (N)WoD of darkness rules to play 40K?

 

We thought about this in my group. The main difference is a probabilities of marginal success/failure and exceptional success/failure in 1d100 / Xd10 systems.

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I wanted to use Paranoia as a one off whereby the cell agents (aka the players) were on a world run by said "super computer" by which they of course would find and shut down... LOL

 

That would so trigger an admech civil war.

 

Admech 1: "The Computer is the True Omnissiah! The Avatar of the Machine God!"

 

Admech 2: "It's an artificial intelligence! It's existence is techno-heresy!"

 

Both: "TO THE DEATH!"*

 

 

 

* and since they've gotten their hands on R&D's stockpiles they both died due their own weapons malfunctioning/blowing up half a city.

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Weird that the massive 5e audience is so interested in the uninteresting

 

And why their opinion about 5e must have anything to do with mine opinion about WH40K RPG?

 

BTW, argument "Fifty thousand lemmings can't be wrong" doesn't work too well for lemmings in real life...

 

 

Is that what I said? I'm almost 100% positive that's not what I said. What I said was that it was interesting that two different groups feel differently and I wanted to know why that was. I never said their opinion was right or yours was wrong so try not to feel so persecuted when someone says something is interesting.

 

As I said for a community that cares mostly about roleplay the system seems atrocious for that. When you have talents like paranoia and hatred instead of just roleplaying being paranoid or roleplaying hating people you pay XP for it. 

 

 

 

As much as I may harp on the Sisters of Battle for my own dumb reasons, ServantofDante you've done exactly what I would ask one of my players to do when making a character. That is looking for a mechanical representation of their character's preferred fighting style and weapons as determined by their personality and choices in life. Had you said you wanted to play a Sister and then not taken e.g. the Common Lore (Imperial Creed) skill or Hatred (Mutants) when you had the chance bcs you instead wanted "a second dodge" quicker I would be disappointed.

You would be robbing your character of the possible character growth and choices necessary to justify something purely for mechanical benefit. That's lazy in my eyes.

As to DPR and combat builds and all that... I'll let the children and WoW players deal with those, my players and I are here to roleplay.

 

This is interesting as my GM after I spent the enormous amount of XP as a Sister of Battle on Hatred's (because you don't get any or just 1 of the aptitudes) just told me that I should just roleplay hating them and not waste the XP on talents since it is largely worthless. 

 

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Also, regarding your point that I stated objectively. If you'd point me to the math on DPR for 40k it'd be very easy to compare them to the DPR formulas for other games. You've got an attack roll, an evade roll, a damage roll, and righteous fury. In 5th edition you just have an attack and damage. What about that do you think isn't objective?

 

I'm not doing this again, you stated a subjective opinion as objective fact. There are some that find either system easier or more complicated.

 

I also could give so much of a grox patty less about "DPR" because I don't play roleplaying games for that. Instead of asking me for that, why don't you look for it, and you do it if you're that interested?

 

 

X * Y = Z is less complicated than U * W * X * Y = Z. I never said DPR was important, you brought up objective/subjectivity when you obviously are completely ignorant on the matter "could give so much of a grox patty less", which really amazes me to think that you're capable of commenting on objectivity of a subjective matter I have no doubt you've never looked into. I wish that I had such ability to know in detail about stuff I've never analysed. A subjective opinion would be stating that 40k rpg's combat system is better or worse due to the complexity. But it's not, ignorantly sticking your head into the sand and pretending that it's impossible to gauge the complexity of a system is nonsense. 

 

Perhaps an easier way of putting it for you: You can play 5e in 40k using very simple rule changes, you cannot replicate the 40k ruleset in 5e. Do you understand how a set that contains another set is complex than the set is contains?

Edited by RMcD

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Is that what I said? I'm almost 100% positive that's not what I said. What I said was that it was interesting that two different groups feel differently and I wanted to know why that was. I never said their opinion was right or yours was wrong so try not to feel so persecuted when someone says something is interesting.

 

Maybe my PC begins to show signs of Silica Animus, but I'm pretty sure that I have seen "weird", not "interesting"...

 

When you have talents like paranoia and hatred instead of just roleplaying being paranoid or roleplaying hating people you pay XP for it.

 

Have you tried to read the descriptions of this talents? Their mechanical effect has nothing to do with paranoia or hating. Bad naming? Yes. Bad rules? No.

Edited by Jargal

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When you have talents like paranoia and hatred instead of just roleplaying being paranoid or roleplaying hating people you pay XP for it. 

 

As much as I may harp on the Sisters of Battle for my own dumb reasons, ServantofDante you've done exactly what I would ask one of my players to do when making a character. That is looking for a mechanical representation of their character's preferred fighting style and weapons as determined by their personality and choices in life. Had you said you wanted to play a Sister and then not taken e.g. the Common Lore (Imperial Creed) skill or Hatred (Mutants) when you had the chance bcs you instead wanted "a second dodge" quicker I would be disappointed.

You would be robbing your character of the possible character growth and choices necessary to justify something purely for mechanical benefit. That's lazy in my eyes.

As to DPR and combat builds and all that... I'll let the children and WoW players deal with those, my players and I are here to roleplay.

 

This is interesting as my GM after I spent the enormous amount of XP as a Sister of Battle on Hatred's (because you don't get any or just 1 of the aptitudes) just told me that I should just roleplay hating them and not waste the XP on talents since it is largely worthless. 

 

Nothing stops you from hating a group or being paranoid as a character, the talents represent a level of hatred or paranoia that has a mechanical effect in the gameworld. Your paranoia is so bad that it keeps you from being able to sleep, your hatred is so strong that you are actively better at killing them.

 

It's a degrees issue.

 

 

Perhaps an easier way of putting it for you: You can play 5e in 40k using very simple rule changes, you cannot replicate the 40k ruleset in 5e. Do you understand how a set that contains another set is complex than the set is contains?

 

Just because I dislike focusing on something (DPR) doesn't mean I don't understand it. It means I don't care about it in any way that reflects my ability to play the game. As mentioned elsewhere I have looked into it, I tend to stop bothering past level 6 in most systems because that's the break of complexity for me that I care to focus on.

 

I also never said it was impossible to gauge the complexity of the system, I more or less implied that I don't care to. I find 5e complicated because of floating modifiers, and 40k for the exact same reason. You can ignore more modifiers without affecting the game in 40k I've found because encounter balance is swingy no matter what the designers like to say. It's more about your tactical acumen over what you've chosen for talents from what I've found.

 

I really disagree with the quoted idea on the face of it, you can't just change the entirety of a system and call it good. Sure you can name change, but you've fundamentally changed the feel of the setting to drape over a system. I think you can replicate either about as well in each other's systems, meaning not at all.

 

Not to mention your last sentence is butchered beyond understandability for someone trying to explain something to me like I'm an idiot or something.

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This is the power of the Askellon sector falling into moral and spiritual decay - let us all pray upon these forums Brothers and Sisters least the taint come over us all driving us to aimless whims and caustic drives!

 

Praise the Emperor

The Emperor Protects!

 

Morbid LOL

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I wanted to use Paranoia as a one off whereby the cell agents (aka the players) were on a world run by said "super computer" by which they of course would find and shut down... LOL

 

That would so trigger an admech civil war.

 

Admech 1: "The Computer is the True Omnissiah! The Avatar of the Machine God!"

 

Admech 2: "It's an artificial intelligence! It's existence is techno-heresy!"

 

Both: "TO THE DEATH!"*

 

 

 

* and since they've gotten their hands on R&D's stockpiles they both died due their own weapons malfunctioning/blowing up half a city.

 

NO! To the Pain.

Edited by Servant of Dante

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I wanted to use Paranoia as a one off whereby the cell agents (aka the players) were on a world run by said "super computer" by which they of course would find and shut down... LOL

 

That would so trigger an admech civil war.

 

Admech 1: "The Computer is the True Omnissiah! The Avatar of the Machine God!"

 

Admech 2: "It's an artificial intelligence! It's existence is techno-heresy!"

 

Both: "TO THE DEATH!"*

 

 

 

* and since they've gotten their hands on R&D's stockpiles they both died due their own weapons malfunctioning/blowing up half a city.

 

NO! To the Pain.

 

 

So you have gone Redemptionist on me now? (The Redeemer: "If it doesn't hurt it doesn't count!")

Plus admech should have the "Feel no pian" special rule ;)

 

Actually I've always wanted to see what admech tech suport is like. Somebody should make a 40k version of The IT crowd.

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I wanted to use Paranoia as a one off whereby the cell agents (aka the players) were on a world run by said "super computer" by which they of course would find and shut down... LOL

 

That would so trigger an admech civil war.

 

Admech 1: "The Computer is the True Omnissiah! The Avatar of the Machine God!"

 

Admech 2: "It's an artificial intelligence! It's existence is techno-heresy!"

 

Both: "TO THE DEATH!"*

 

 

 

* and since they've gotten their hands on R&D's stockpiles they both died due their own weapons malfunctioning/blowing up half a city.

 

NO! To the Pain.

 

 

So you have gone Redemptionist on me now? (The Redeemer: "If it doesn't hurt it doesn't count!")

Plus admech should have the "Feel no pian" special rule ;)

 

Actually I've always wanted to see what admech tech suport is like. Somebody should make a 40k version of The IT crowd.

 

. . . it's a Princess Bride reference.

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Yeah.. I only know the "... prepare to die" one.

 

Turns out even the Ultramarines get in on the fun. I forgot wich novel it is from but a ultramarines company champion intercepts an attacker with the words: "You tried to kill my captain. prepare to die!"

 

8V4Nk.jpg

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I just want to say > DH2 and and 40k in general are combat oriented...

 

Optimization would seem to go hand in hand with that RPG play style - other end of the spectrum being things like Paranoa or or some of the White Wolf Publishing stuff... (aka more Role Play focused per say)

As an aside - there are few games with greater need for optimization than the White Wolf ones, as they are some of the few games where you can accidentally create a completely useless character.

 

More to the point, it's not that 40k in general or DH2 in specific have no place for build optimization, it's more that the optimal strategies are generally well-known by now (as most of them were optimal from the days of DH1) and that the Aptitude-based character advancement makes it exceedingly easy to prioritize the acquisition of the most optimal traits, thus making optimization too simple for in-depth discussions.

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